Are there any *good* arguments for affirmitive action...

[Master of Ossus]

Isn't it racism to take all the eligible employees and ONLY hire whites?

Not if, and only if, the white employees are all more qualified than the minority ones. It would be the same if a company hired all blacks, who were all more qualified than the whites.

[Master of Ossus]

Its racism, but its against the majority. That makes it okay.

Why does that make it okay? If I ordered minorities into a racial war against whites, in which all whites were killed, I would be worse than Hitler. Just because someone discriminates against a majority does not make his actions more right than someone who discriminates against a minority.

[Master of Ossus]

The protests against Affirmative Actions show that whites can dish it out, but they can't take it.

Unsubstantiated claim. Not only are there a great many whites who support Affirmative Action, but there are also minorities (including myself) who disagree with Affirmative Action.

[guyver]

Last time I checked this is still the good old U S of A. A private owned company should be able to hire who ever they want. Affirmative Action takes that right away from them. That is very wrong.

If company A wants to be all white. So be it.

If company B wants to be a mix. So be it.

Affirmative Action should be removed.

[Joe]

Last time I checked this is still the good old U S of A. A private owned company should be able to hire who ever they want. Affirmative Action takes that right away from them. That is very wrong.

If company A wants to be all white. So be it.

If company B wants to be a mix. So be it.

Affirmative Action should be removed.

Actually, I agree with you, I think freedom of association is important.

However, in America, it's NOT true that companies can just hire whoever they want and exclude whomever they want. You'll get sued every which way real quick if you try that.

[Darth Wong]

Last time I checked this is still the good old U S of A. A private owned company should be able to hire who ever they want. Affirmative Action takes that right away from them. That is very wrong.

If company A wants to be all white. So be it.

If company B wants to be a mix. So be it.

Affirmative Action should be removed.

You've never worked in human resources, eh? There are a huge number of regulations and rules governing the hiring and firing process. Rules governing racial discrimination are but one of many; the notion that private property is immune to regulation is frankly foolish.

[Zaku-chan]

Last time I checked this is still the good old U S of A. A private owned company should be able to hire who ever they want. Affirmative Action takes that right away from them. That is very wrong.

That's idiotic. How could the government function if it couldn't exercise jurisdiction over private property?

[guyver]

Last time I checked this is still the good old U S of A. A private owned company should be able to hire who ever they want. Affirmative Action takes that right away from them. That is very wrong.

If company A wants to be all white. So be it.

If company B wants to be a mix. So be it.

Affirmative Action should be removed.

You've never worked in human resources, eh? There are a huge number of regulations and rules governing the hiring and firing process. Rules governing racial discrimination are but one of many; the notion that private property is immune to regulation is frankly foolish.

No I have been very lucky and never had to work in HR. But why do you think private property should not be immune to regulation such as Affirmative action?

[Joe]

But private property isn't the only issue. There's freedom of association, which can be linked to free speech.

[guyver]

Last time I checked this is still the good old U S of A. A private owned company should be able to hire who ever they want. Affirmative Action takes that right away from them. That is very wrong.

That's idiotic. How could the government function if it couldn't exercise jurisdiction over private property?

The goverment should never be able to tell you what you can or can not do in a private company, as long as you are not causing any harm. In a goverment run org that is paid for by the public tax dollars such as public schools than yes they can tell you what to do.

[guyver]

But private property isn't the only issue. There's freedom of association, which can be linked to free speech.

Thank you for pointing that out.

[Zaku-chan]

The goverment should never be able to tell you what you can or can not do in a private company, as long as you are not causing any harm. In a goverment run org that is paid for by the public tax dollars such as public schools than yes they can tell you what to do.

Free enterprise is a nice idea and works better than any other idea out there, but humans are inherently lazy and looking for shortcuts. Gov. regs are needed to keep businesses from slipping back into Industrial Revolution standards.

[Joe]

The goverment should never be able to tell you what you can or can not do in a private company, as long as you are not causing any harm. In a goverment run org that is paid for by the public tax dollars such as public schools than yes they can tell you what to do.

Free enterprise is a nice idea and works better than any other idea out there, but humans are inherently lazy and looking for shortcuts. Gov. regs are needed to keep businesses from slipping back into Industrial Revolution standards.

The Industrial Revolution standards people like to refer to have more to do with the socioeconomic conditions of the pre-capitalist era than they do the actual Industrial Revolution. It takes time to build factories and develop safer methods of doing work. These things don't just materialize out of thin air.

[guyver]

The goverment should never be able to tell you what you can or can not do in a private company, as long as you are not causing any harm. In a goverment run org that is paid for by the public tax dollars such as public schools than yes they can tell you what to do.

Free enterprise is a nice idea and works better than any other idea out there, but humans are inherently lazy and looking for shortcuts. Gov. regs are needed to keep businesses from slipping back into Industrial Revolution standards.

That is not true. Not all people are lazy. Yes the govt should have regs to protect the country, the good old earth. But they should not tell you that you have to hire this person just because they say so. Look is the govt giving you anything to hire this person, if no than why should you do it. If yes than the choice is yours.

That is all I saying.

[Zaku-chan]

The Industrial Revolution standards people like to refer to have more to do with the socioeconomic conditions of the pre-capitalist era than they do the actual Industrial Revolution. It takes time to build factories and develop safer methods of doing work. These things don't just materialize out of thin air.

I know. What I meant was IR-era standards.

[guyver]

The goverment should never be able to tell you what you can or can not do in a private company, as long as you are not causing any harm. In a goverment run org that is paid for by the public tax dollars such as public schools than yes they can tell you what to do.

Free enterprise is a nice idea and works better than any other idea out there, but humans are inherently lazy and looking for shortcuts. Gov. regs are needed to keep businesses from slipping back into Industrial Revolution standards.

That is not true. Not all people are lazy. Yes the govt should have regs to protect the country, the good old earth. But they should not tell you that you have to hire this person just because they say so. Look is the govt giving you anything to hire this person, if no than why should you do it. If yes than the choice is yours.

That is all I saying.

[Zaku-chan]

That is not true. Not all people are lazy. Yes the govt should have regs to protect the country, the good old earth. But they should not tell you that you have to hire this person just because they say so.

I agree, but there should still be gov regulations.

Look is the govt giving you anything to hire this person, if no than why should you do it. If yes than the choice is yours.

That is all I saying.

Intersting POV.

[guyver]

Makes you think..

If people get to make there own choices, people are happy. And a happy people is a good people.

[Master of Ossus]

Makes you think..

If people get to make there own choices, people are happy. And a happy people is a good people.

People don't always know what they want, and they're not going to be happy just because they have the right to be happy, however I fundamentally agree that discriminating against any people based on race is morally wrong, and I don't think that Affirmative Action can be used for such a purpose.

[neoolong]

Makes you think..

If people get to make there own choices, people are happy. And a happy people is a good people.

What do you mean by good people? Being happy does not make someone necessarily a good person?

And any sort of judgement by race is wrong. Affirmative action gives precedence to race and that just ain't right.

[guyver]

Makes you think..

If people get to make there own choices, people are happy. And a happy people is a good people.

People don't always know what they want, and they're not going to be happy just because they have the right to be happy, however I fundamentally agree that discriminating against any people based on race is morally wrong, and I don't think that Affirmative Action can be used for such a purpose.

You are very right sir. People do not always know what they want, and yes people are not going to always be happy. But the people should always be able to make choices on there own and never told that you have to do it this way.

If you look back in time of this country you can see that people had a lot more power over there lives than they do today. Is that good thing or a bad thing I can not answer for you, but for me I want to be able to make choices for myself. There is a very good fanfic in the fan fic section called ""A Good Citizen": PC Near-Future" It shows what happenes when the goverment gets to much power.

[Darth Wong]

You are very right sir. People do not always know what they want, and yes people are not going to always be happy. But the people should always be able to make choices on there own and never told that you have to do it this way.

Bullshit. That's anarchy. Societies regulate the activities of their citizens. It is not an on/off scenario; it is a matter of degrees. There is no society in which people are free to make their own decisions with no limit other than not directly hurting anyone.

Why can't you litter in the park? It doesn't directly hurt anyone, right? Why can't you make employees work 14 hour days? You're a private company, right? Why can't you put spy cameras in womens' bathrooms if you own the building? It's private property, right? Why not child labour? It's everyone's right to choose, right? Get real.

If you look back in time of this country you can see that people had a lot more power over there lives than they do today. Is that good thing or a bad thing I can not answer for you, but for me I want to be able to make choices for myself.

Regulated choices, in a civilized society. If you want total freedom, go up to the mountains and live in a shack.

[guyver]

You are very right sir. People do not always know what they want, and yes people are not going to always be happy. But the people should always be able to make choices on there own and never told that you have to do it this way.

Bullshit. That's anarchy. Societies regulate the activities of their citizens. It is not an on/off scenario; it is a matter of degrees. There is no society in which people are free to make their own decisions with no limit other than not directly hurting anyone.

Why can't you litter in the park? It doesn't directly hurt anyone, right? Why can't you make employees work 14 hour days? You're a private company, right? Why can't you put spy cameras in womens' bathrooms if you own the building? It's private property, right? Why not child labour? It's everyone's right to choose, right? Get real.

If you look back in time of this country you can see that people had a lot more power over there lives than they do today. Is that good thing or a bad thing I can not answer for you, but for me I want to be able to make choices for myself.

Regulated choices, in a civilized society. If you want total freedom, go up to the mountains and live in a shack.

I think you might have misunderstood my ideas. I am not for the removal of all laws. Laws that are fair and just should be put into place. But laws that are nothing more than a feel good law should be banned.

America is a republic as we all know, the people vote a representative into office based on the idea this person stands for what the majority of the people want. I know that the system is not perfect and people will lie cheat and steal there way in to get people to vote for them, but I belive that this system is the best in the world.