When you ban guns see what can happen.

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Sea Skimmer
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Crazy_Vasey wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:So you think it’' a bad thing if a citizen can draw a gun and kill the person attacking them? Mind you, more then 90% of cases of guns being drawn in self defense result in no shots being fire. The armed populace, of America at least, is not nearly as blood thirsty as may wish to portray it.
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A huge proportion of gun crime seems to be coming from organised gangs that have made their way into this country. Most gun crime seems to be directed towards either police officers or in gang wars. How would armed civilians help?
There's a lot more crime you can protect yourselves against then just those committed with a gun. :roll:

Criminals are doing what they are doing for an easy ride. That's why even if they also are armed with a firearm most criminals run at the sight of a gun armed target. It not worth the risk for them.
Last edited by Sea Skimmer on 2002-12-19 04:26pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by aerius »

I really don't feel like typing out for the nth time why gun control does not equal crime control. I believe most if not all the arguments here were already covered in the "Gun Control" thread here.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=8177
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Post by Oberleutnant »

Dahak wrote:Germany has some very strict gun laws, too.
And we don't have problems with all that many gun related crimes.
In the year 2001, in 11,270 cases people threatened with a gun, and in 5416 cases the weapons have been used. And of those 5416 cases, a third are damage to property. Another third was criminal assault. And only about 300 were cases in which the shooting was used in a murder or manslaughter.

Which means I feel pretty safe not to be threatened ever by a gun on a German street...
Well, it's the opposite in Finland where fifty percent of the households has a gun of some sort. Automatics are quite rare because they are, of course, harder to obtain. About 90 percent of the male population has also done their military service so they have experience with firearms. Gun-related crimes are uncommon here, and when criminals (usually biker gangs and the like) use 'em, they are almost always illegal, unregistered pieces.

There's one thing I don't get about American gun laws: why are the silencers banned there?
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Post by Crazy_Vasey »

Sea Skimmer wrote:
There's a lot more crime you can protect yourselves against then just those committed with a gun. :roll:

Criminals are doing what they are doing for an easy ride. That's why even if they also are armed with a firearm most criminals run at the sight of a gun armed target. It not worth the risk for them.
The article was talking about gun crime so that's what I restricted myself to talking about in my post. In a more general sense no-one can know what effect it would have on British crime rates because we have always had fairly tight gun control laws compared to places like America and it's only recently that crime has really began to rise sharply. It might help, I don't know.
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Post by Howedar »

Oberleutnant wrote: There's one thing I don't get about American gun laws: why are the silencers banned there?
If you're doing something legal, then the noise won't matter, as you have no reason to hide. If you're doing something illegal, then the government doesn't want you to be able to hide.
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Post by Oberleutnant »

Howedar wrote:
Oberleutnant wrote: There's one thing I don't get about American gun laws: why are the silencers banned there?
If you're doing something legal, then the noise won't matter, as you have no reason to hide. If you're doing something illegal, then the government doesn't want you to be able to hide.
From what I've heard from people who spend their time at the shooting range, they really love their silencers. On some weapons it can greatly improve the accuracy and it protects the hearing. It does matter even if your business is perfectltly legal. IMO it shouldn't be very hard for criminals to acquire silencers if they can already easily obtain automatic weapons.

(Perhaps at this point it should be mentioned that I'm not a real gun nut myself - I don't own them nor have I ever fired one)
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Post by aerius »

Oberleutnant wrote:There's one thing I don't get about American gun laws: why are the silencers banned there?
Same reason that switchblades, butterfly knives, and nunchucks are banned in many States, irrational fear and political BS. Instead of actually doing something useful to fight crime, they take the easy way out and pass laws to ban weapons.
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Post by Skelron »

Okay I'll point out only one thing here, Before the banning of hand Guns only a VERY TINY Minority of the British Public owned hand guns. What does this mean it is not the same cultural change as if they where banned in America, so you cannot say because the fear of guns in civy's hands has dropped or gone the criminals are now using guns, because the fear was not there in the first place! maybe 5 or 6 people per town had a hand gun, thats it, we where not like America so you cannot view us from the American stand point, hand guns where Rare, not common. There is no link from the banning of hand guns to the rising Gun Crime rates, anyone trying to claim their is, is being very dishonest, as they often are American's writing for American audiences, and fail to mention the fact that the gun culture of America did not exist here!
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Post by Peregrin Toker »

Why do so many of you think that gun ownership is that common over in the US??

I've never been there, but according to what I have read, gun ownership is more legal in some states than others.

(I recall reading that New York State has very strict gun control laws compared to Virginia)
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Post by Knife »

Simon H.Johansen wrote:Why do so many of you think that gun ownership is that common over in the US??

I've never been there, but according to what I have read, gun ownership is more legal in some states than others.

(I recall reading that New York State has very strict gun control laws compared to Virginia)
Curiously enough, those states with harsh gun laws like New York, Washington, ect.... also have high crime rates.
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Post by salm »

Simon H.Johansen wrote:Why do so many of you think that gun ownership is that common over in the US??

I've never been there, but according to what I have read, gun ownership is more legal in some states than others.

(I recall reading that New York State has very strict gun control laws compared to Virginia)
because i know a couple of people in the us and some of them have guns.
i know a lot of people in europe and non of them have guns.
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Post by Perinquus »

Skelron wrote:Okay I'll point out only one thing here, Before the banning of hand Guns only a VERY TINY Minority of the British Public owned hand guns. What does this mean it is not the same cultural change as if they where banned in America, so you cannot say because the fear of guns in civy's hands has dropped or gone the criminals are now using guns, because the fear was not there in the first place! maybe 5 or 6 people per town had a hand gun, thats it, we where not like America so you cannot view us from the American stand point, hand guns where Rare, not common. There is no link from the banning of hand guns to the rising Gun Crime rates, anyone trying to claim their is, is being very dishonest, as they often are American's writing for American audiences, and fail to mention the fact that the gun culture of America did not exist here!

The reasons handguns were rare in England is because your government, fearing Red revolution after World War I, gradually began dispossessing you of them. There was a time when they were freely available there, and about as common as they were here. There is a link between the banning of hand guns and the rising crime rates. Criminals in your country are emboldened by more lenient treatment in your courts, by the fact that people have been disarmed, and most of all by the fact that your government has essentially criminalized self defense. If you shoot an intruder in your home in England, even if he was armed himself and threatening you and your family, you can pretty much count on it that you will be charged with murder. In this environment, criminals become more and more brazen because they know that people will be cowed. Even if their victims should posess the means with which to defend themselves (unlikely anymore), they will almost certainly not dare do so because the government will step in and charge them with a crime if they do, and if convicted, they could do hard time. Self defense is no longer recognized as justification for homicide.

There is really good study on this available. It's called "Guns and Violence", by Professor Joyce Lee Malcolm, and examines the history of firearms, gun control laws and violent crime in England. Here is a link to an article which mentions the book, and deals with some of the myths of gun control:

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell.html

(This link will only take you to the latest article by this columnist, so scroll down to the bottom of the page, click on "Thomas Sowell Archives", then scroll down to the article for 11/26/02. There are two follow up artticles on this subject as well.
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Re: When you ban guns see what can happen.

Post by Exonerate »

guyver wrote: Currently only about seven percent of London's police can carry a gun at any one time.
:roll: What do they use, lightsabers?

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Post by Oberleutnant »

salm wrote:because i know a couple of people in the us and some of them have guns. i know a lot of people in europe and non of them have guns.
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html

According to this, many European households are armed. Most of those figures are also quite old and in some cases the number of firearms has increased a lot.
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Post by ArmorPierce »

salm wrote:
If he's raping my wife then he deserves to have his brains splatted on my walls.
wrong! he deserves to go to prison and get butt raped by large inmates for a couple of decades


So while your waiting for the police to come he kills you and your wife and runs off.

The fact that I'll go to jail for this is an indication of how fucked up the laws are.
bullshit! you kill somebody, you go to prison. that easy.

You killed someone who was invading your home, raping your wife, and might have had killed her and/or you so it was in self defense, why should you go to prison, you hippie.
if guns are illegal then less are around. as said above the inhibition level of owning or even using a gun illegally or legally is higher.
Most crimes using guns are commited by illegally owned guns.
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Post by Soulman »

The increase in crime in Britain has nothing to do with gun control and everything to do with ineffective policing and a shite criminal 'justice' system as well as the imported gangs (convicted immigrants should be shipped off never to return). Get those problems sorted out and crime will go down. We used to have low crime rates at the same time as having strict gun control.

Letting everyone have guns wouldn't matter anyway as the majority of the populace doesn't want them anyway and so wouldn't be armed.
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

Three pages and neither Falk or Sheppard have piped in.

Actually, I live inside a federally protected wilderness zone, only the Rangers can have guns. This hasn't stopped people from bringing them in, we have had several rapes, Two scuicides, a robbery & even the rape and kidnapping of an armed Ranger in the seven years I have lived in Gun Free Yosemite.
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Post by Lord Pounder »

Mainland Police are a joke. A big stick and c.s. gas are nothing. here in Belfast the polics are running arround in APC's and carry machine guns.
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Post by Peregrin Toker »

The Yosemite Bear wrote:Three pages and neither Falk or Sheppard have piped in.
I also wondered how a thread about gun control could exist without MKSheppard entering it.
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

It's a paradox, thus the thread doesn't exist?
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Well..

Post by papachulo10 »

Actually i live in the us in a state with hardly any gun control. Yes you must get a license and background check, but it is nowhere near as stricts as New York and New Jersey.

The crime rate in my state is laughably low, I attribute this to the non-strict gun laws.
I just hate it when people wanna ban guns. I mean if you don't like them, fine. Yet you shouldn't take it out of the people who use them safely and responsibly, and the only way to do this is through education. The liberalist media in this country has painted firearms in such a bad light that children cower when you say "gun." I believe children should be taught to respect guns, for they are a powerful device.

Yet if one wants to hunt, target practice, or have a firearm for self-defense, by all mean he/she should. Just take the course, test, paperwork, and background check.

ANother thing that ticks me off is when people want to ban assault rifles. For the record and AR-15 (an m-16 in semi-automatic) is NOOOOTTT an assault rifle. It is merely a semi-automatic firearm that happens to look mean. I mean it is rediculous that when you buy a ruger MINI-14(don't really like mine) and you try to put a black synthetic stock, politicians think that is an assault rifle due to the fact that is has a pistol grip.

ERRRRR..i just had to get that out of my system.
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Post by EmperorMing »

Reminds me of the term paper I wrote 2 semesters ago. From my reasearch, banning guns does *not* solve the problem. Just does the opposite.

Heck, ask any criminal what they would fear most, and it would be something along the lines of the intended victim being able to retaliate in a lethal manner. (or something along those lines. :wink: )
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Post by brothersinarm »

Its not necessary immigrants fault for crime rates. And besides its impossible to background check every immigrant that enters a country because many of them don't have any identification and their country's government probably don't even know they exist. Its a shame really. Most first world nation's population are in decline. Many need immigration to fill up empty jobs, and yet we're afraid to let them in. Some a bad, but some a good. Other than illegal immigration the legal way of allowing immigrants to enter a country probably won't be able to screen out any more criminals, unless they stand out like a sore them (Osama Bin Crappy).
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Post by Mr Bean »

It all gets back to the basic thing the avarage Gun-"Control"(Control as in the UK method of control) person is unwilling to admint


To a Criminal
Who would you try and hold up with a knife/gun?

Mr T?
A BlackBelted Master 5th Dan?
Old Lady
Young Woman with Kid
Cop on the side of the street?

Now obviously trying to rob a 5th Dan is probably idiotic with a gun or a knife but most people don't have the time and conctration to become one

Not everyone can be Mr T and you know how dumb that is to mess with Mr T, I pitty the fool who does

And the Cop(Unless this is the UK) has gun on him and can call for backup IE stupied idea to rob him

That leaves you with the woman with the kid or the old lady

Now what if both of them where carring guns?(Say we are in Switzerland)

It look so appeling to rob either?

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Post by Peregrin Toker »

Mr Bean wrote: Now what if both of them where carring guns?(Say we are in Switzerland)
Only the male population of Switzerland are required to possess firearms, as they are the only ones obliged to serve in the militia.

BTW, isn't it a bit hard to conceal a SG-550 assault rifle??
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