The german wehrmacht in Modern America (RAR!)

[Borgholio]

Also, the German Army had it's own share of doctors. You'd think that some of them would understand the danger behind the vault doors.

[Patroklos]

Far more than our own run of the mill doctors probably. WWII was a still time when tens of thousands of disease casualties could be expected as the the price of doing buisness when it came to warfare. The Germans were pathalogical about delousing based on their experiances on the WWI eastern front. The Germans also have the experiance of epedemics inside their concentration camps, many thousands having died there from typhus and other diseases.

It was just a different time, starvation was still a thing in the armed forces then.

[Me2005]

This scenario is so ridiculous and awesome.

A few things for now that I didn't see in 14 pages of thread:

1) While rifles are rifles, I believe modern weapons that even civilians in the US have access to are more accurate and faster firing than the rank-and-file German equipment. Every civilian and cop with a gun likely has a semi-auto, in the historical scenario, only a few units have something better than bolt-action rifles. Obviously they have machine guns as well, but unemplaced troops are at more of a disadvantage in individual engagements I'd think. That is, until the Germans raid a few police armories and take their AR-15s and civilian stores for whatever semi-autos they can scrounge.

2) I'm not 100% sure on how the high-caliber historical weapons used by the Germans would effect modern Kevlar armor worn by all police and soldiers. But when even our civilian forces have armor that allows us to potentially survive being shot, it gives us an edge in individual engagements again (obviously not beneficial for anyone that draws on the initial 20 million man march though).

3) +/-20 million soldiers will take up a ton of space. With all the equipment, machinery, and supplies, I'd give them no less than 100 sq.ft per person. That's 2 billion sq.ft., or a little over 71 square miles. Atlanta proper looks to be about 7 square miles. Google appears to show the metro area as 132 square miles; with buildings and etc. they very likely de facto occupy it from hour 0, as dozens of German troops and a tank pour into every building immediately.

4) I also don't see this as being as-quickly reacted to as most of you are assuming. While any of us could identify a historical German military unit, how many could know for sure it was here as an act of war? If a bunch of Union soldiers showed up in your local park, would you automatically assume they were there to conquer your town? The Germans, if they've had sufficient pre-planning, are going to be spreading out through the city and surrounding area, capturing it without firing a shot. The real national understanding that this is a problem(TM) won't come until well after they've seized the city, as initial images and reports will be to ludicrous to believe.

Even once the air units are detected, a few fighters are all that are likely to be scrambled. It'll only be once they make contact and radio in that yes, this is a problem(TM), that preparations will begin to be made beyond the 'at-the-ready' units we have on hand.

5) I'm assuming from Zor's comments that they are prepared for this campaign, have an intelligent plan, and won't do anything outlandishly stupid or suicidal. They'll go for nearby tactical and military assets, decimate targets they can reach but can't expect to capture, and hunker down; putting the citizens of Atlanta into prison camps housed with their stores and barracks, for use as hostages and insurance against attacks. That said, they could still be nuked on day 1-2 and the battle would largely be over. If the people in charge could bring themselves to do such a thing without public backlash, it'd be the short route to victory.

[Patroklos]

Were the Germans particularly known for using human shields in real life? No, and that's with the really hard corps Nazis included.

Can we please stop with the mushtashe twirling villian thing? We actually know who these people are and what they were willing to do in the most desperate of circumstances. If people with the fanaticism and lack of scruples of Nazis, like actual NAZIS, didn't do it then they are not going to do it now in less dire circumstances.

[Me2005]

Were the Germans particularly known for using human shields in real life? No, and that's with the really hard corps Nazis included.

Can we please stop with the mushtashe twirling villian thing? We actually know who these people are and what they were willing to do in the most desperate of circumstances. If people with the fanaticism and lack of scruples of Nazis, like actual NAZIS, didn't do it then they are not going to do it now in less dire circumstances.

I'm not talking "Stand behind them with guns pointed to their heads" hostages, I'm talking "imprisoned populous in large, secure, existing local facilities (schools, hospitals, offices) housed alongside their weapons and troops" hostages. Which may not have happened directly, but we're assuming the Germans know they're going into this with some foresight. Logistically, it makes sense to put all the citizenry into as few facilities as possible; and storing your stuff in those facilities when you know that your enemy won't readily target their own citizens makes some sense.

Even if you issue martial law instead of imprison them, entrenching next door to regular citizens would dissuade the US government from using several of the most effective options.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

1) While rifles are rifles, I believe modern weapons that even civilians in the US have access to are more accurate and faster firing than the rank-and-file German equipment. Every civilian and cop with a gun likely has a semi-auto, in the historical scenario, only a few units have something better than bolt-action rifles. Obviously they have machine guns as well, but unemplaced troops are at more of a disadvantage in individual engagements I'd think. That is, until the Germans raid a few police armories and take their AR-15s and civilian stores for whatever semi-autos they can scrounge.

I will take a company of well-trained infantry with 1940s rifles and machineguns over a motley collection of rednecks and beat cops any day. Even SWAT teams are only trained in certain kinds of enforcement scenarios; they're not a military unit and are woefully unprepared for an actual infantry firefight - nevermind that aforementioned infantry company has more than just its rifles and machineguns, it has organic mortars and attached assaults guns and artillery to back it up.

An M16 may be able to provide a greater volume of fire than a Mauser K98k, but you can't talk about infantry firearms in a vacuum. Those Mausers are backed up by MG34s and MG42s, and the squads and platoons using them know how to make use of them to maximum effect. Cops and armed rednecks have no unit cohesion, no esprit de corps, no concept of infantry tactics or doctrine. They'll be located by well-organized recon, pinned down by more coordinated fire, and cornered and slaughtered (or forced to surrender) by real, professional troops.

Infantry combat is one of the few things the Germans in this scenario have going for them, at least in the sense that it's relatively even. A National Guard or Army unit will have slightly better equipment, slightly more evolved doctrine (taking advantage of things like organic grenade launchers and better communications), and a huge advantage in mechanization and in an anti-tank/anti-air role, but infantry for infantry the Germans at least have a fighting chance because a rifle is still a rifle and a hail of bullets from a machinegun will still pin you down.

[Me2005]

A National Guard or Army unit will have slightly better equipment, slightly more evolved doctrine (taking advantage of things like organic grenade launchers and better communications), and a huge advantage in mechanization and in an anti-tank/anti-air role, but infantry for infantry the Germans at least have a fighting chance because a rifle is still a rifle and a hail of bullets from a machinegun will still pin you down.

Fair enough. Does the modern unit out range the Germans significantly? Does it matter with the numbers advantage they've got?

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

If we're talking about an actual Army unit in a hypothetical field engagement, then yes, because they have TOWs, Javelins, Bradleys, computers, and satellites.

In a more close-quarters engagement (as will invariably be required), range doesn't matter nearly as much. Small arms can list all kinds of supposed effective ranges, but in reality infantry combat is essentially moot beyond 300m (roughly the range at which a man-sized target is smaller than your own iron sights). At any actual infantry range engagement, modern US small arms aren't that big of an advantage. An advantage, certainly, but things like unit cohesion, supplies, morale, communication, recon, and air/artillery/armor support are going to have far, far more of an impact on the outcome of such a battle - and as I outlined earlier in the thread, the Germans are going to be bleeding those things out of their collective anus faster than you can say "desertion."

[Purple]

As far as penetration 7.92x57mm Mauser is equivalent to 7.62x51 OTAN and 7.62x54R. It is going to go through most body armor as if it were not there. And 7.62x33 (the stuff used for the StG 44) is basically equivalent to a slightly worse version of 7.62x39mm. As in the round used for the AKM. So they are far from outgunned in that respect.

[Patroklos]

Bolt action and magazine size is what’s going to really hurt the Germans in a medium to close action scenario, both being highly disadvantageous under those circumstances. Even the most rudimentary modern rifle optics will be far superior to the German inventory, and not just stuff the Germans have a rudimentary equivalent to like scopes but things like red dot/holographic sights. Body armor also protects you against shrapnel and bullet fragments which is pretty important in urban environments.

These are situational advantages though, close combat is too fluid and quick to just declare a tech edge as a winning variable. In the end when you enter a room you decide to turn left or right for instance, who knows what will happen.

[Simon_Jester]

This scenario is so ridiculous and awesome.

A few things for now that I didn't see in 14 pages of thread:

1) While rifles are rifles, I believe modern weapons that even civilians in the US have access to are more accurate and faster firing than the rank-and-file German equipment. Every civilian and cop with a gun likely has a semi-auto, in the historical scenario, only a few units have something better than bolt-action rifles. Obviously they have machine guns as well, but unemplaced troops are at more of a disadvantage in individual engagements I'd think. That is, until the Germans raid a few police armories and take their AR-15s and civilian stores for whatever semi-autos they can scrounge.

This makes relatively little practical difference. The well armed civilians are still (mostly) uncoordinated individuals with no combat training fighting vast numbers of well-trained infantrymen (also millions of poorly trained and half-equipped Volkssturm, but whatever).

2) I'm not 100% sure on how the high-caliber historical weapons used by the Germans would effect modern Kevlar armor worn by all police and soldiers. But when even our civilian forces have armor that allows us to potentially survive being shot, it gives us an edge in individual engagements again (obviously not beneficial for anyone that draws on the initial 20 million man march though).

The main advantage is in protection against shrapnel, but that advantage isn't all that decisive. It basically means fewer soldiers get killed by random artillery shells landing fifty or a hundred meters away, or by grenade fragments ricocheting around a corner... but a lot of soldiers still get wounded by these means, and on the time-scale of this campaign wounded men are out of the picture for the duration.

3) +/-20 million soldiers will take up a ton of space. With all the equipment, machinery, and supplies, I'd give them no less than 100 sq.ft per person. That's 2 billion sq.ft., or a little over 71 square miles. Atlanta proper looks to be about 7 square miles. Google appears to show the metro area as 132 square miles; with buildings and etc. they very likely de facto occupy it from hour 0, as dozens of German troops and a tank pour into every building immediately.

This was repeatedly addressed.

4) I also don't see this as being as-quickly reacted to as most of you are assuming. While any of us could identify a historical German military unit, how many could know for sure it was here as an act of war? If a bunch of Union soldiers showed up in your local park, would you automatically assume they were there to conquer your town? The Germans, if they've had sufficient pre-planning, are going to be spreading out through the city and surrounding area, capturing it without firing a shot. The real national understanding that this is a problem(TM) won't come until well after they've seized the city, as initial images and reports will be to ludicrous to believe.

If there are tens of millions of them swarming all over the place, and uncountable thousands of planes, the US military is going to react and not take it as a joke. Moreover, there will be huge swarms of cell phone calls and tweets and e-mails going "OH MY GOD THERE ARE NAZIS EVERYWHERE" from the Atlanta area, providing further confirmation that this is no shit.

Even once the air units are detected, a few fighters are all that are likely to be scrambled. It'll only be once they make contact and radio in that yes, this is a problem(TM), that preparations will begin to be made beyond the 'at-the-ready' units we have on hand.

Well, that hinges on the actual preparation state of the US forces, and whether most US combat aircraft can be loaded and gotten into the air on several hours' notice.

5) I'm assuming from Zor's comments that they are prepared for this campaign, have an intelligent plan, and won't do anything outlandishly stupid or suicidal. They'll go for nearby tactical and military assets, decimate targets they can reach but can't expect to capture, and hunker down; putting the citizens of Atlanta into prison camps housed with their stores and barracks, for use as hostages and insurance against attacks. That said, they could still be nuked on day 1-2 and the battle would largely be over. If the people in charge could bring themselves to do such a thing without public backlash, it'd be the short route to victory.

This was repeatedly addressed. The basic problem is that unless the Germans can somehow convince the US to ship four times more food into the Atlanta area than they normally would, then everyone in the Atlanta area is going to begin to starve within a few weeks. Even stealing ALL the civilians' food won't help indefinitely, because there's still the basic problem of feeding 28 million people in an area that used to hold only seven million.

Now, the Germans can say "if you don't give us the food you're STARVING YOUR OWN PEOPLE!" but the sensible reply is "If you hold out long enough that our civilians start dropping dead of malnutrition, we'll kill you all out of hand."

At some point the Germans are going to realize "welp, we're fucked," and the Fortress Atlanta strategy does literally nothing for them except prolong their inevitable surrender.

[K. A. Pital]

But realistically without turning Atlanta into a hecatomb, it is impossible to win too if they dig down and keep to the towns.

They are fucked, but they are also having over twenty million people in the region (and that includes German soldiers) killing whom might be considered a greater crime than letting them live.

[Vejut]

As far as penetration 7.92x57mm Mauser is equivalent to 7.62x51 OTAN and 7.62x54R. It is going to go through most body armor as if it were not there. And 7.62x33 (the stuff used for the StG 44) is basically equivalent to a slightly worse version of 7.62x39mm. As in the round used for the AKM. So they are far from outgunned in that respect.

Not really relevant to the main scenario, as 12 million men under arms with decent training is still that, but this is somewhat incorrect--8mm mauser, .308, and 7.62 Russian are all in the same ballpark, but they're actually very stoppable by modern body armor. Most police issue class IIIa will not stop them, as its only rated to stop up to .44 mag, and won't even stop 7.62x39, but basic Class III hard armor plates are actually defined by being able to stop multiple hits of .308 FMJ ball, while class IV is armor that can stop .30-06 (again, roughly in the same power level to a bit higher) shooting steel core WWII era AP ammo for at least one shot. So if police SWAT is issued hard armor, they should be able to take at least an odd round here and there, and IIRC, modern US army body armor is about midway between class III and class IV (they defined it a bit higher to stop fragments).

[Purple]

Not really relevant to the main scenario, as 12 million men under arms with decent training is still that, but this is somewhat incorrect--8mm mauser, .308, and 7.62 Russian are all in the same ballpark, but they're actually very stoppable by modern body armor. Most police issue class IIIa will not stop them, as its only rated to stop up to .44 mag, and won't even stop 7.62x39, but basic Class III hard armor plates are actually defined by being able to stop multiple hits of .308 FMJ ball, while class IV is armor that can stop .30-06 (again, roughly in the same power level to a bit higher) shooting steel core WWII era AP ammo for at least one shot. So if police SWAT is issued hard armor, they should be able to take at least an odd round here and there, and IIRC, modern US army body armor is about midway between class III and class IV (they defined it a bit higher to stop fragments).

Do note that "stop" under these conditions merely refers to preventing lethal penetration. You still would not want to be the one behind those plates. If a soldier gets hit by a 7.92 he is going down. With proper armor he might not die. But he is still out of the conflict for all intents and purposes.

[Me2005]

My first two observations have been addressed, so I've skipped those.

3) +/-20 million soldiers will take up a ton of space. With all the equipment, machinery, and supplies, I'd give them no less than 100 sq.ft per person. That's 2 billion sq.ft., or a little over 71 square miles. Atlanta proper looks to be about 7 square miles. Google appears to show the metro area as 132 square miles; with buildings and etc. they very likely de facto occupy it from hour 0, as dozens of German troops and a tank pour into every building immediately.

This was repeatedly addressed.

Yes, but I don't think anyone put the numbers down. Without putting anyone/thing in or on a building to start, you'd have men and equipment packed into every street and park in and around Atlanta and all of its suburbs upon their arrival. If they show up early in the morning, before anyone is really awake or there is any traffic, they could capture the city before anyone even gets a chance to take a picture by virtue of appearing on their doorstep.

4) I also don't see this as being as-quickly reacted to as most of you are assuming. ...

If there are tens of millions of them swarming all over the place, and uncountable thousands of planes, the US military is going to react and not take it as a joke. Moreover, there will be huge swarms of cell phone calls and tweets and e-mails going "OH MY GOD THERE ARE NAZIS EVERYWHERE" from the Atlanta area, providing further confirmation that this is no shit.

If no one is even awake before they start streaming into every house, what is anyone going to do? Maybe call 911, but even the 911 call center is likely to get taken. And besides, even if they were there in the middle of the day, how many people on the street would automatically assume a large group of people walking around in random military dress with guns are Nazis, and not just part of some huge convention they didn't know about? How many would just start shooting them, especially if they're mostly walking around and not shooting civilians wholesale?

And when this has literally never happened before how likely are the uppity-ups to believe some stories they'll be seeing first on the internet? Once their forces start calling in they'll take note, but that won't be until after Atlanta is taken.

Even once the air units are detected, a few fighters are all that are likely to be scrambled. It'll only be once they make contact and radio in that yes, this is a problem(TM), that preparations will begin to be made beyond the 'at-the-ready' units we have on hand.

Well, that hinges on the actual preparation state of the US forces, and whether most US combat aircraft can be loaded and gotten into the air on several hours' notice.

Yes, and I'm assuming that we don't keep many squadrons of aircraft armed and at the ready at all times. We're not at war where being invaded by armies is a possibility; we don't have the capacity to turn around and fight one that just shows up unannounced within our boarders in just hours. A few days or weeks and sure, we could do more. This would be totally unprecedented, at absolute worst you'd have at least a day to prepare and that force would come from outside our boarders by air (or Mexico/Canada by ground). Even that is crazy unlikely, we'd notice someone gearing up a 20-million man army and make appropriate preparations ourselves.

5) I'm assuming from Zor's comments that they are prepared for this campaign, have an intelligent plan, and won't do anything outlandishly stupid or suicidal. ...

This was repeatedly addressed. The basic problem is that unless the Germans can somehow convince the US to ship four times more food into the Atlanta area than they normally would, then everyone in the Atlanta area is going to begin to starve within a few weeks. Even stealing ALL the civilians' food won't help indefinitely, because there's still the basic problem of feeding 28 million people in an area that used to hold only seven million.

Zor said they were prepared, so I'd assume they've got food for at least a couple months. If they get besieged right away, they could probably stretch that to last much longer.

Now, the Germans can say "if you don't give us the food you're STARVING YOUR OWN PEOPLE!" but the sensible reply is "If you hold out long enough that our civilians start dropping dead of malnutrition, we'll kill you all out of hand."

At some point the Germans are going to realize "welp, we're fucked," and the Fortress Atlanta strategy does literally nothing for them except prolong their inevitable surrender.

And this is the kind of strategy I think they'd see failing in advance. What good is taking a city and holding it? They'll take it and hold it, but with only a portion of their army and dug in very well. Once they round up the population and start loading them into field prisons, most of the army could be on the move. 90% could leave and they'd still be 2 million occupiers to finish fortifying/securing locations, moving artillery and AA equipment, requisition supplies, and guard the populous. And again, if this happened early, there wouldn't be much traffic in the way on the roads before the army started rolling out to other targets.

[Patroklos]

Yes, but I don't think anyone put the numbers down. Without putting anyone/thing in or on a building to start, you'd have men and equipment packed into every street and park in and around Atlanta and all of its suburbs upon their arrival. If they show up early in the morning, before anyone is really awake or there is any traffic, they could capture the city before anyone even gets a chance to take a picture by virtue of appearing on their doorstep.

Dude, not only did I do the numbers for the aircraft I created a visual of the physical space the three Luftwaffe airframes alone would take up. Read the thread!

If no one is even awake before they start streaming into every house, what is anyone going to do? Maybe call 911, but even the 911 call center is likely to get taken. And besides, even if they were there in the middle of the day, how many people on the street would automatically assume a large group of people walking around in random military dress with guns are Nazis, and not just part of some huge convention they didn't know about? How many would just start shooting them, especially if they're mostly walking around and not shooting civilians wholesale?

Yeah, that huge Nazi convention of millions. Talk about a flash mob idea from hell. Oh yeah, and they also have millions of mint condition historic military vehicles and they all speak in German and nothing else.

No, the reality will be readily apparent. We might argue how or why it is happening for years into the future, but none of that detracts from us knowing it is happening and to do something about it. Not to mention the Luftwaffe will start dropping bombs on some targets within minutes, so no some giant kos play is not what people will be thinking.

And when this has literally never happened before how likely are the uppity-ups to believe some stories they'll be seeing first on the internet? Once their forces start calling in they'll take note, but that won't be until after Atlanta is taken.

I don't think anyone suggested Atlanta won't be taken. But note that CNN is headquartered there. Even if that was not the case video upon video upon video will be available AS IT HAPPENS immediately across the media. Even in if the Germans shut down local TV stations that will be immediately noticed.

Yes, and I'm assuming that we don't keep many squadrons of aircraft armed and at the ready at all times. We're not at war where being invaded by armies is a possibility; we don't have the capacity to turn around and fight one that just shows up unannounced within our boarders in just hours. A few days or weeks and sure, we could do more. This would be totally unprecedented, at absolute worst you'd have at least a day to prepare and that force would come from outside our boarders by air (or Mexico/Canada by ground). Even that is crazy unlikely, we'd notice someone gearing up a 20-million man army and make appropriate preparations ourselves.

This was already discussed. There is a completely unfounded notion that because we did not send up wings worth of fighter airplanes on 9/11 that all our jets are sitting in pieces spread throughout the US and the ammunition has to be transported in from the moon.

The reason we didn't flood the air with armed fighters in 9/11 is because 1.) we discovered there was a problem as the enemy stuck rather than on the way to targets like in this scenario. It was basically after the fact and need response times in minutes no hours or days 2.) the bad guys were not readily identifiable 3.) not only were they not identifiable but we risked killing hundreds more citizens for any mistake and 4.) the threat was not geographically isolated or even restricted to a general area. It was instantaneous throughout all of the continental US and beyond.

As a case in point we send up hundreds of our inventories airframes every day just for training and to maintain flight hours. The inventory is perfectly capable of being sent up in short order. Arming them is another thing but weapons really are not completely divorced from operating locations as some people think.

Can we martial all our forces within an hour? No. Can we do so in a few hours? No, but we can certainly get enough up and running to present serious opposition. Can we do so in a day or two? Absolutely.

Zor said they were prepared, so I'd assume they've got food for at least a couple months. If they get besieged right away, they could probably stretch that to last much longer.

They have food in ATL. Food they can't transport or store at will and is itself a giant target. Already covered.

And this is the kind of strategy I think they'd see failing in advance. What good is taking a city and holding it? They'll take it and hold it, but with only a portion of their army and dug in very well. Once they round up the population and start loading them into field prisons, most of the army could be on the move. 90% could leave and they'd still be 2 million occupiers to finish fortifying/securing locations, moving artillery and AA equipment, requisition supplies, and guard the populous. And again, if this happened early, there wouldn't be much traffic in the way on the roads before the army started rolling out to other targets.

[/quote]

I am pretty sure you didn't read this thread at all. What is the vehicle count for all of ATL currently, then note whatever that number is gives it some of the worst traffic in the country with the transport infrastructure working optimally. Now take all the vehicles of the Wehrmacht from 1939 to 1945 (plus millions upon millions of leg infantry and horses) and put them on the same roads, adding in the general confusion, exiting refugees and enemy action already described in detail, then assume a linear increase in traffic problems based on vehicle numbers (in reality this would be closer to an exponential increase) and tell us what you find out.

[Simon_Jester]

Yes, but I don't think anyone put the numbers down. Without putting anyone/thing in or on a building to start, you'd have men and equipment packed into every street and park in and around Atlanta and all of its suburbs upon their arrival. If they show up early in the morning, before anyone is really awake or there is any traffic, they could capture the city before anyone even gets a chance to take a picture by virtue of appearing on their doorstep.

The catch is that the Germans won't be able to stop people from taking cell phone pictures or tweeting because they don't know what to look for. They could in theory detach one man to watch every person in the Atlanta metropolitan area at all times, but this would rapidly become unmanageable and a huge waste of manpower that they could use productively for a lot of other things.

If no one is even awake before they start streaming into every house, what is anyone going to do? Maybe call 911, but even the 911 call center is likely to get taken. And besides, even if they were there in the middle of the day, how many people on the street would automatically assume a large group of people walking around in random military dress with guns are Nazis, and not just part of some huge convention they didn't know about? How many would just start shooting them, especially if they're mostly walking around and not shooting civilians wholesale?

And when this has literally never happened before how likely are the uppity-ups to believe some stories they'll be seeing first on the internet? Once their forces start calling in they'll take note, but that won't be until after Atlanta is taken.

Well, since Atlanta is taken within like five minutes that really doesn't mean anything.

The point is, there will be enough disruption of the status quo that very rapidly, people will figure out that something is wrong.

Even once the air units are detected, a few fighters are all that are likely to be scrambled. It'll only be once they make contact and radio in that yes, this is a problem(TM), that preparations will begin to be made beyond the 'at-the-ready' units we have on hand.

Well, that hinges on the actual preparation state of the US forces, and whether most US combat aircraft can be loaded and gotten into the air on several hours' notice.

Yes, and I'm assuming that we don't keep many squadrons of aircraft armed and at the ready at all times. We're not at war where being invaded by armies is a possibility; we don't have the capacity to turn around and fight one that just shows up unannounced within our boarders in just hours. A few days or weeks and sure, we could do more. This would be totally unprecedented, at absolute worst you'd have at least a day to prepare and that force would come from outside our boarders by air (or Mexico/Canada by ground). Even that is crazy unlikely, we'd notice someone gearing up a 20-million man army and make appropriate preparations ourselves.

Well, what's really involved is: are there effective munitions at the airbases where the planes are? If so, loading them onto the planes in response to a direct order from a general isn't exactly impossible.

Zor said they were prepared, so I'd assume they've got food for at least a couple months. If they get besieged right away, they could probably stretch that to last much longer.

There's prepared and then there's ridiculous. There's a practical limit to how much food they can carry in addition to all the other relevant supplies.

And frankly, the actual size of their food stockpile is irrelevant; if they go Fortress Atlanta, they wind up surrounded and hemmed in in an urban area. Any mechanized columns they send out get annihilated by airstrikes and long range antitank weapons; any infantry formations they march out get annihilated by fuel-air bombs and tactical nuclear strikes once they get out into open country.

So even if they show up with several tons of food per person, sooner or later they're screwed.

And this is the kind of strategy I think they'd see failing in advance. What good is taking a city and holding it? They'll take it and hold it, but with only a portion of their army and dug in very well. Once they round up the population and start loading them into field prisons, most of the army could be on the move. 90% could leave and they'd still be 2 million occupiers to finish fortifying/securing locations, moving artillery and AA equipment, requisition supplies, and guard the populous. And again, if this happened early, there wouldn't be much traffic in the way on the roads before the army started rolling out to other targets.

Thing is, the bulk of the German troops have to walk to their targets, which is going to take days. Long enough that the Air Force can respond effectively. Armored formations can get farther, faster- but they will run into serious problems dealing with even light US ground force and helicopter opposition, because they have no effective counter to long range guided antitank missiles. Basically, any German attack force in the open after more than several hours have passed is going to be getting whittled down and stalled by enemy forces mounting a mobile defense.

We've literally been over all of this repeatedly.

[Zor]

What is the agricultural productivity of Georgia?

Zor

[Elheru Aran]

What is the agricultural productivity of Georgia?

Zor

Not enough to matter in this context.

[Me2005]

Yes, but I don't think anyone put the numbers down. Without putting anyone/thing in or on a building to start, you'd have men and equipment packed into every street and park in and around Atlanta and all of its suburbs upon their arrival. If they show up early in the morning, before anyone is really awake or there is any traffic, they could capture the city before anyone even gets a chance to take a picture by virtue of appearing on their doorstep.

Dude, not only did I do the numbers for the aircraft I created a visual of the physical space the three Luftwaffe airframes alone would take up. Read the thread!

Saw that, I was counting the whole army. The number of aircraft just illustrates how crazy it'd be to try to park them, and I didn't say much about using aircraft because of that issue.

Thing is, the bulk of the German troops have to walk to their targets, which is going to take days. Long enough that the Air Force can respond effectively. Armored formations can get farther, faster- but they will run into serious problems dealing with even light US ground force and helicopter opposition, because they have no effective counter to long range guided antitank missiles. Basically, any German attack force in the open after more than several hours have passed is going to be getting whittled down and stalled by enemy forces mounting a mobile defense.

This here is a problem. Looking at a Google map, it'd take days just to walk to the next state from Atlanta. We'd surely have units harassing them by then, if not full-on engaging in mop-up duties. They might dig into some additional cities and towns, but doing that makes them fixed stationary targets and gives us more time to martial the ideal materials and units to attack them with. They could have a week's surprise, this country is just too big for them to get anywhere useful on foot.

I was thinking that their best plan of attack would be to either 1) Capture enough of the country to form a new country of their own or 2) Failing that, cause enough damage to cripple the US indefinitely. They can't move fast enough to do either and don't have popular support to do 1.

[K. A. Pital]

They can, theoretically, expunge Georgia's civilians peacefully in exchange for the territory. Killing 17 million people, even if they are Germans, is not an easy decision at all. Killing these 17 million plus all the civilians is an even worse one. The US cannot put them all in prison either without massively overloading the system and creating the a crime superstate inside the prisons.

One may say 'what stops the US from nuking the state after the civilians are safely removed', but that is tough guy nonsense. If people are negotiating, only a lunatic would drop an A-bomb on their head.

And vice-versa, the harder the Germans fight, the more likely heavy weaponry and finally nukes will fly.

[Patroklos]

Guess what the US didn't do with millions of German POWs after each one was around to participate in the entire range of WWII atrocities (unlike these ones) in real life?

Hint: 1.) didn't kill them. 2.) didn't imprison them.

[K. A. Pital]

At the time there were (1) only several million Germans as POWs (2) a multimillion strong expeditionary force in Europe that created internment camps. This time it is quite different due to the numbers involved.

[Beowulf]

At the time there were (1) only several million Germans as POWs (2) a multimillion strong expeditionary force in Europe that created internment camps. This time it is quite different due to the numbers involved.

Internment camps are quite capable of being constructed by the prisoners themselves. And you don't need to keep them all in prison forever. Most of them can probably be released back to their home country (yay Germany!). And a UN convention keeps them from just loosing their German citizenship, so it's largely Germany's problem on how to absorb them. Those who commit warcrimes will likely not be leaving prison except feet first.

Yes, and I'm assuming that we don't keep many squadrons of aircraft armed and at the ready at all times. We're not at war where being invaded by armies is a possibility; we don't have the capacity to turn around and fight one that just shows up unannounced within our boarders in just hours. A few days or weeks and sure, we could do more. This would be totally unprecedented, at absolute worst you'd have at least a day to prepare and that force would come from outside our boarders by air (or Mexico/Canada by ground). Even that is crazy unlikely, we'd notice someone gearing up a 20-million man army and make appropriate preparations ourselves.

Well, what's really involved is: are there effective munitions at the airbases where the planes are? If so, loading them onto the planes in response to a direct order from a general isn't exactly impossible.

If you look at any random fighter/bomber base, you'll typically find bunkers on satellite, not too far from the runway. Like so: https://goo.gl/maps/cAeOH https://goo.gl/maps/CW5HH . These are filled with effective munitions. Might not have enough for a long sustained air war, but they're there.

[K. A. Pital]

I do not know of any real prison system that contained and handled over 15 million imprisoned men simultaneously. The USSR interned over 3 million people at a given time, and even that was hard enough. Yay Germany? Who said Germany is going to accept the return of 17+ million Nazi troops from the past in a matter of a few months? It will likely try to stop repatriation with all possible means, saying that it has nothing to do with the event and the US should sort their refugee/POW crisis themselves. It has very good reasons to do so. While in the US the Germans are clearly defined aliens, in Germany they could quickly blend with the normals. The implications of that for crime in Germany are immense. Just as they are for right-wing politics, as Nazis from 1940 are likely to seriously impact the political landscape once they realize they have citizenship by law.