Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

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Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Poll ended at 2014-11-12 05:11pm

Yes
53
60%
Maybe
5
6%
No
26
29%
Don't Know
5
6%
 
Total votes: 89

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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Vendetta »

TheFeniX wrote: Either way, Fatnerds lost out to Dudebros long before people started pointing out the obvious sexism problems in video games. Honestly, no one in the industry cares what they think unless they are making death threats or yelling slurs at women. It is the only reason they are relevant.
See, I don't think dudebros are actually that attached to gaming and don't even care. It's not that fatnerds lost to dudebros, it's that fatnerds and dudebros were secretly the same people all along.

It's not just "ubisoft release the same Assassin's Creed 22 times" but "Assassin's Creed has the same guy in forever, nobody realises this is boring".
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Wild Zontargs »

A while back, there was an online survey of the political and social opinions of people in the GamerGate camp. Here are the results (referenced graphics and links can be found in the original). TL;DR: according to the author, GG people are left-leaning, anti-authoritarian, egalitarian and anti-identity-politics. Contrary to the popular narrative, GamerGate is mostly a left vs left fight, rather than right vs left.
Editorial: #GamerGate Political Attitudes, Part 1- Is The Movement Right-Wing? wrote: December 29, 2014 - Allum Bokhari

This is part one of a series analyzing the political attitudes of GamerGate, based on an online survey conducted between the 18th and the 22nd of December. The full data tables can be found HERE, and an overview of the results can be found HERE.

The political views and identification of GamerGate supporters continues to generate confusion. Left-leaning writers from a variety of outlets and blogs, including the Daily Kos, The Verge, and The Guardian have sought to characterize GamerGate as a right-wing uprising. However, aggregates political compass data collected from GamerGate supporters in October suggests this may not be entirely correct.

Trying to sort any diverse group into an ideological box will always be problematic, particularly given the unwieldiness of the left-right spectrum. The concepts of "right" and "left" originally emerged in the French revolution, to describe rival factions in the French National Assembly. Members of the National Assembly who supported the King sat to the right of the president, and supporters of the revolution sat to his left. In the 20th century, it morphed into a description for those who support more government intervention in the economy, and those who supported less. It has also been used to describe a myriad of other political divides, such as supporters and opponents of immigration, supporters and opponents of gay marriage and abortion, environmentalists and climate-sceptics, and so on.

The many transformations in the usage of these terms were never without controversy however, and it remains an open question whether seating arrangements in the old French legislature are really the most accurate way of describing political disagreements.

Nevertheless, the concepts of left and right still carry enough weight with journalists, politicians and academics to be worthy of analysis. With that in mind, I designed a short survey to measure the opinions and political identities of GamerGate supporters. 1540 GamerGate supporters from Twitter and the subreddit KotakuInAction responded to the survey.

In the first part of this two-part series, I will look at GamerGate's political identity, and their levels of trust towards the political left and the political right, as well as their changing attitudes towards the media.

1. GamerGate does not identify as right-wing


source: imgur.com

Contrary to the narrative presented by some left-leaning journalists, GamerGate supporters continue to identify with the political left. The single largest contingent of respondents identified as liberal or left-leaning (28 percent). The second-largest contingent were left-libertarians (24 percent). A further one percent identified as left-authoritarian. Combined, this suggests that 54 percent of GamerGate identifies with some form of left-wing politics.

Centrists were also better represented than right-wingers. In total, 19 percent of respondents identified with either centrism (6 percent) or centrist libertarianism (13 percent). Centrist authoritarians, like left-authoritarians, were poorly represented with 1 percent.

Collectively, right-wingers and conservatives only amounted to 15 percent of respondents. The largest contingent were right-libertarians (10 percent), followed by conservatives (4 percent). Once again, only one percent identified with authoritarianism.

Overall, it looks like GamerGate supporters are considerably more likely to identify with the left or the centre than they are with the right. On the other hand, the results also show a strong identification with libertarianism, which may give us a clue as to the source of the divide between GamerGate and its critics.

2. ….But they’re disillusioned with the left


source: imgur.com

Despite their continued identification with the liberal and libertarian left, the survey results also show a severe drop in support for the mainstream left. A majority of respondents (67 percent) agreed that they were now more likely to view the left as authoritarian. In addition to this, 34 percent of respondents said that GamerGate made them question their identification with the left, while a further 26 percent said they would now be more likely to consider voting for right-leaning parties and candidates.

There has also been a collapse in trust for left-wing media sources. Eighty-three (83) percent of respondents said that their opinion of left-leaning media sources had declined due to GamerGate, and only one percent said it had improved. Seventy-one (71) percent of respondents also agreed with the statement that "left-wing bias in technology and videogame journalism is a problem."

This is unsurprising. Most left-leaning outlets, including the Huffington Post, Gawker, Vox, Raw Story, Buzzfeed, Vice, The Guardian, and the New Yorker have taken a hostile stance towards GamerGate. By contrast, right-leaning outlets like Breitbart News, the Washington Free Beacon, the Spectator, Truth Revolt, the National Review, the Federalist, and the Daily Caller have been mildly to strongly supportive of the movement.

More interestingly, GamerGate's opinion of publicly-funded media outlets (such as NPR, CBC, and the BBC) also declined. Sixty-three (63) percent of respondents said their trust in publicly-funded outlets had declined, compared to two percent who said it had improved and 35 percent who said it had stayed the same. Despite the fact that these outlets usually have an obligation to remain impartial, GamerGate supporters do not believe they have been treated fairly.

Only right-leaning and libertarian outlets have come out of the controversy with a net increase in trust. Twenty-nine (29) percent of respondents said their opinion of these outlets has improved, compared to 10 percent who said it has declined and 61 percent who said it had stayed the same. Libertarian publications such as Spiked Online and Reason Magazine also received a net increase in support, with 24 percent saying their opinion of these outlets had improved, compared to 9 percent who said it had declined and 66 percent who said it had stayed the same.

3. GamerGate remains out of step with the right on most issues


source: imgur.com

If the right wish to convert their newfound trust among gamers into support for their wider platform, they have some work to do. On environmental issues, 70 percent of respondents agreed that climate change is man-made, and 69 percent agreed that the growth of extreme weather conditions is linked to global warming. A solid 92 percent of respondents also agreed that the promotion of renewable energy would be a good thing even if climate change were not occurring.

Neo-conservativism fares no better. Seventy-four (74) percent of GamerGate supporters agreed that Edward Snowden is a "patriot, not a traitor", 69 percent believe that military budgets are too bloated, and a solid 92 percent agree that civil liberties are being excessively curbed in the name of counter-terrorism.

Staunch traditionalists will also find little common ground with GamerGate supporters. Large majorities of respondents agreed that both abortion (80 percent) and gay marriage (89 percent) should be legal.

It should also be noted that while 26 percent said GamerGate had made them more likely to vote for right-leaning candidates and parties (a substantial figure given how rare it is for people to suddenly switch their partisan allegiances), a far larger group (61 percent) said they had not done so.

Analysis: Left-vs-Left

Given GamerGate's frequent opposition to left-wing media critics and left-leaning games sites such as Polygon and Kotaku, it is easy to see why journalists believed that the movement was right-wing. The response to this survey, however, indicates a more complicated picture. GamerGate appears to have started as a broadly left-wing movement, but over the past few months their trust in the left (and left-wing journalists in particular) has been significantly shaken. This too, is understandable, given that many of these journalists have accused GamerGate of everything from misogyny to 'dishonest fascism.' In short, while the initial characterization of GamerGate as a right-wing force appears to have been mistaken, it may yet turn out to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Right-wing journalists, by comparison, have seen a moderate increase in support, thanks largely to their sympathetic reporting of the movement. The 26 percent of GamerGate supporters who say they are now more willing to consider right-leaning candidates and parties may seem like a small number, but this obscures the fact that it is very rare to see people change their political allegiances in such a short space of time. When such changes happen on a mass scale, they can significantly alter the political landscape. GamerGate supporters may not have transformed into right-wingers overnight, but they are now far more likely to listen to what the right has to say.

The left, meanwhile, should be aware that it is their own supporters who are under attack. GamerGate sympathizes with the left on almost every major issue. This has not been a left-vs-right battle, but a left-vs-left battle, between somewhat disengaged but generally left-leaning gamers and a highly politicized group of journalists.

Something, it seems, is dividing left-leaning gamers from left-leaning journalists. The precise nature of this division will be the subject of my second piece.

About the author: Allum Bokhari is a political consultant, writer, former Parliamentary intern, and a regular contributor to TechCrunch. You can find him on Twitter at @LibertarianBlue.

[Disclaimer: The opinions and data presented in this article are the author's and do not represent the opinions of GamePolitics or its staff.]
#GamerGate Political Attitudes Part Two: Old Liberals vs. New Progressives wrote:December 30, 2014 - Allum Bokhari

This is the second (and final) article in a series analyzing the political attitudes of GamerGate, based on online polling conducted between the 18th and the 22nd of December. The full data tables can be found HERE, and an overview of the results can be found HERE. An archive of the original survey questions can be found HERE.

In my last piece, I looked at data that indicated GamerGate remained predominantly left-leaning, but also appeared to be increasingly adrift from the left-wing media. In this article, I will look at some of the potential reasons for this divide.

One of these is undoubtedly the fact that left-wing media sources took an overtly hostile stance towards GamerGate, giving a platform to many of its most prominent critics, and repeating claims that the movement was inhabited by everyone from right-wing bigots to pedophile apologists and serial doxxers. Compared to the relatively positive coverage of GamerGate by right-wing sources, it is unsurprising that GamerGate shows reduced levels of trust with the left.

As we shall see however, it is unlikely that the left chose to become hostile to GamerGate on a whim. GamerGate has genuine disagreements with the mainstream left on some of their more controversial beliefs and causes, and it is these divisions that may lie behind the latter’s hostility.

1. GamerGate supports feminism, but not the media’s feminism

source: imgur.com

One of the questions which attracted the most negative feedback from respondents was the question of whether supporters of GamerGate now "trusted conservatives more than feminists." Many respondents refused to answer the question, arguing that conservatism and feminism were broad churches, and the question was too reductionist. This was, of course, the point of the question – to judge the relative health of the feminist and conservative brands.

Those who responded were fairly evenly divided. Thirty-six (36) percent said they did not trust conservatives more than feminists as a result of GamerGate, while 25 percent said they did. Of these, the majority (75 percent) identified as liberal or left-leaning. This is an interesting result, as it is unusual for self-identified liberals or left-wingers to trust conservatives on any issue. However, it is also worth noting that over half (52 percent) of those who now trust conservatives more also said that GamerGate had made them question their left-leaning political identity. Although they are comparatively small in the larger picture of GamerGate, it is this group’s attitudes – to conservatism, feminism, and leftism – that has undergone the most change.

Many observers will be surprised that there remains a persistent bedrock of support for the feminist brand among GamerGate (or at the least, a refusal to condemn it wholesale). This may be due to the efforts of equity feminist Christina Hoff Sommers, and libertarian-leaning feminists Cathy Young and Louise Mensch, all of whom have spoken out in favor of the movement. GamerGate’s early support for The Fine Young Capitalists, a feminist game development project also suggests that the movement is not hostile to every single variant of feminism.

A clearer picture emerges when we look at GamerGate's opinions on issues rather than labels. By 67 percent to 6 percent, GamerGate rejected the belief that there is an "epidemic of sexual assault on US campuses." They also agreed, by 69 percent to 10 percent, that "if there is a feminist movement there should also be a men's rights movement." On the other hand, respondents also indicated a suspicion of identity politics in general, agreeing (68 percent to 15 percent) that "movements designed to advance the interests of particular genders, races, and orientations are inherently divisive."

While GamerGate supporters are not prepared to reject all forms of feminism, they are very much out of step with the feminist causes that have been at the forefront of left-wing media & political narratives over the past few years. The feminists who they do have common cause with (particularly Sommers and Young) are notable for being vocally critical of these narratives.

2. GamerGate is also at odds with the mainstream left on key social issues

source: imgur.com

One of the clearest results in the poll was the question of whether men, women and minorities should be held to the same standards, with an overwhelming 98 percent of respondents agreeing that they should. 80 percent of respondents also agreed that 'equality of outcomes is a misguided goal,' and 78 percent agreed that "positive" discrimination is little better than any other form of discrimination.

GamerGate supporters are also extremely suspicious of the common rhetorical and argumentative devices of the left. Perhaps unsurprisingly for a group repeatedly accused of the worst possible motivations, 83 percent agreed that words like racism, misogyny, and homophobia are "losing their meaning through increasing misuse." Eighty-seven (87) percent agreed that "safe spaces and trigger warnings are convenient masks for policing speech, art, and culture."

It’s also safe to say that GamerGate doesn’t buy into the “punching up vs punching down” mantra popular in the left-wing blogosphere. Ninety-two (92) percent agreed that "nothing, no matter how offensive, should be off-limits to art and comedy." Given GamerGate’s recent celebrations over the greenlighting of controversial isometric shooter Hatred, this endorsement of uninhibited creative freedom is unsurprising.

A further point of division with some (but not all) elements of the left is political freedom. While GamerGate strongly supports progressive causes like abortion rights (80 percent support) and gay marriage (89 percent support), 79 percent of respondents also said that opposition to either of these causes should not negatively impact a person’s career or business venture (79 percent). GamerGate appears to be strongly opposed to Brendan Eich-style witch hunts, a stance which puts them at odds with progressive activists who are increasingly wedded to “call-out culture.”

There has never been unanimous support for affirmative action or diversity quotas, even on the left. Complaints about the use of concepts like racism and sexism as political footballs are also nothing new. Nevertheless, the near-unanimity of GamerGate’s opinion on these topics is striking. If we are looking for the political fault lines dividing GamerGate from their progressive critics in the media, these issues are likely candidates.

6. Libertarianism, but not as we know it

source: imgur.com

Tying all these anti-censorship and politically tolerant attitudes together is a general theme of small-l libertarianism. Collectively, those who identified with right-libertarianism, left-libertarianism, centrist libertarianism, and classical liberalism amounted to 50 percent of all respondents.

However, their responses to questions on taxation and government spending do not indicate the typical “free market” views you might expect from mainstream libertarians. Respondents were evenly split on the issue of whether privately-run services are more efficient than government-run services (40 percent to 35 percent), and only 38 percent agreed that cutting spending was preferable to raising taxes. Only 26 percent agreed that the free market could fix most social problems, compared to 53 percent who disagreed.

On the other hand, GamerGate also has a healthy wariness of cultural elites that mainstream libertarians can applaud. Eighty-five (85) percent of respondents agreed that "those who try and define what is socially acceptable and unacceptable often have authoritarian instincts and should not be trusted."

When GamerGate supporters say they are libertarian, therefore, it is safe to assume that most of them are talking about their attitudes to society and culture as opposed to economics. I used Pax Dickinson’s "Grey Libertarianism" concept (see here for the precise definition used in the poll) to denote a form of libertarianism that is more concerned with social and cultural freedom than economic freedom. Sixty-nine (69) percent of GamerGate supporters said that the concept appealed to them – 19 percent more than those who identified with some form of libertarianism in the first question of the poll.

The idea that cultural and social freedoms can be separated from economic freedoms, is, of course, an argument that would no doubt be fiercely contested by many mainstream libertarians. Indeed, many libertarians argue that economic liberty is the foundation of every other liberty. Late 20th century libertarian theories have focused almost exclusively on issues such as taxation and government intervention in the economy, and have paid comparatively little attention to the realms of culture and society.

Analysis: Liberals vs Progressives?

Political historians have often remarked that the right won the big economic arguments of the 20th century, while the left won the social and cultural ones. Neo-liberalism rolled back economic socialism in the 1980s, and the cultural left beat the moral majority in the 1990s.

In GamerGate, however, we see a different story. Where once social and cultural issues were a source of unity for the left, they now appear to divide it. While many left-leaning GamerGate supporters continue to show strong support for core “cultural left” positions such as abortion and gay marriage, the results also show that they are completely turned off by any of the more recent additions to the progressive agenda – positive discrimination, “call-out culture,” trigger warnings, safe spaces, etc. And, as we saw in my last piece, their level of trust in the left has been severely shaken.

It would be foolish to assume that debates on these issues are limited to gaming. In the past two years, there have been growing signs of quite serious division on the cultural left. It wasn’t just conservatives who were up in arms about Brendan Eich’s firing – liberal publications like The Atlantic and Slate sounded the alarm as well. Alan Dershowitz is no right-winger, nor is columnist Emily Yoffe, yet the former is leading a campaign of Harvard lawyers against the university’s interpretation of Title IX laws, and the latter’s 9-page critique of the same policies went viral. Guardian columnist Nick Cohen is a leading liberal in the UK, and yet an increasing number of his columns are devoted to critiquing what he sees as a growing culture of censorship and “call-outs” [1, 2, 3].

Battle lines are being quietly, warily drawn in the culture wars – not between conservatives and liberals (although conservatives are certainly aware of what’s going on [1, 2, 3, 4] ) – but between liberals and progressives. These two groups, who once appeared indistinguishable, are becoming more so. Liberals are increasingly concerned by what they see as progressives’ embrace of vigilantism. Progressives, by contrast, seem increasingly concerned with the need to change culture by any means possible.

The politics of GamerGate (in particular the question of why left-leaning gamers are fighting left-leaning media commentators) cannot be understood in isolation from these wider political divisions. In this context, GameGate supporters’ embrace of “Grey Libertarianism” can be seen as less of an attempt to genuinely break with left-liberalism, and more of an attempt to differentiate themselves from progressive activism.

In this, the politics of GamerGate mirrors the divided politics of the cultural left in 2014. Although the polite columns of Cohen and Yoffe seem a world away from the brutal hashtag wars of Twitter, the issues and beliefs being fought over are much the same. And as the divide between the old liberals and the new progressives grows deeper, it is likely that we will see more fighting.

About the author: Allum Bokhari is a political consultant, writer, former Parliamentary intern, and a regular contributor to TechCrunch. You can find him on Twitter at @LibertarianBlue.

[Disclaimer: The opinions and data presented in this article are the author's and do not represent the opinions of GamePolitics or its staff .]
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

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Gamergate started as one asshole's smear campaign against his ex-girlfriend, how is that "left-wing"? Already tells me all I need to know about the thorough research that went into this "survey".
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by madd0ct0r »

well, a link to the survey data is in the top of the post.

What that survey is missing imho, is an age bracket question. most of those results correlate to angry teenager, in particualr the 'grey liberatriaism' bit.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

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I don't understand why it matters that the assholes are right or left wingers.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

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Metahive wrote:Gamergate started as one asshole's smear campaign against his ex-girlfriend, how is that "left-wing"? Already tells me all I need to know about the thorough research that went into this "survey".
Well, given that the title of the thread is "Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?", I thought that this portion at least would be relevant:

"Gay marriage should be legal" 5% disagree, 6% neutral, 89% agree

"Abortion should be legal" 10% disagree, 9% neutral, 80% agree

"Opposing gay marriage or abortion should not negatively impact an individual's career or business venture" 9% disagree, 12% neutral, 79% agree

"Men, women, and minorities should be held to the same standards." 2% disagree, 2% neutral, 96% agree

"No group should be subject to discrimination, but equality of outcomes is a misguided goal" 8% disagree, 12% neutral, 80% agree

"Although it is not an excuse for unequal standards, innate differences between the genders exist and should be discussed." 4% disagree, 11% neutral, 85% agree

""Positive" discrimination is no better than any other form of discrimination and should be opposed" 7% disagree, 14% neutral, 79% agree

"There is an epidemic of sexual assault on American campuses." 67% disagree, 27% neutral, 6% agree

"Political movements designed to advance the interests of particular genders, races, or sexual identities are inherently divisive and discriminatory" 10% disagree, 17% neutral, 68% agree

"If there is a feminist movement, there should also be a men's rights movement." 10% disagree, 21% neutral, 69% agree

"Words like racism, misogyny and homophobia are losing their meaning through increasing misuse" 3% disagree, 4% neutral, 93% agree

"Nothing, no matter how offensive, should be off-limits to art or comedy" 3% disagree, 4% neutral, 92% agree

""Safe spaces" and "Trigger warnings" are just convenient masks for policing speech, art, and opinions." 4% disagree, 11% neutral, 87% agree

"Those who try to define what is socially acceptable or unacceptable often have authoritarian instincts, and should not be trusted." 4% disagree, 11% neutral, 85% agree


Unless you want to define "misogyny" as being in favor of equal treatment for men and women of all sexual orientations without demanding equal outcomes for all, being in favor of gay marriage and abortion rights without demanding that those who disagree be fired, not declaring certain words and ideas to be unthinkable and unspeakable, not declaring that you're forbidden from disagreeing with or criticizing certain people, and being against identity politics in general, I don't see how you can pigeonhole the entire movement as misogynist. Are there true misogynists in the movement (as opposed to deliberate invocations of Poe's law)? Almost certainly. Do they make up a majority of it? Survey says no.

Misogyny is "hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women, or prejudice against women", not "people who were nasty to this specific woman" or "people who don't completely agree with a specific school of feminism and/or social justice".

Thanas wrote:I don't understand why it matters that the assholes are right or left wingers.
Well, if the assholes are neither right-wing nor misogynists, but rather left-leaning egalitarians with a social-libertarian bent, that indicates that the public framing of the debate is in error. Rather than being "gamers against women" or "gamers against equality", it's "gamers against authoritarians" and "gamers against self-censorship". They may still be assholes, but not for the ideological reasons previously given. Telling them to stop hating women when they weren't in the first place isn't going to encourage them to stop being assholes.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

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Wild Zontargs wrote:Well, if the assholes are neither right-wing nor misogynists, but rather left-leaning egalitarians with a social-libertarian bent, that indicates that the public framing of the debate is in error. Rather than being "gamers against women" or "gamers against equality", it's "gamers against authoritarians" and "gamers against self-censorship". They may still be assholes, but not for the ideological reasons previously given. Telling them to stop hating women when they weren't in the first place isn't going to encourage them to stop being assholes.
On the other hand, the demonstrable effects of the movement have invariably been "gamers against women" (and also some non-gamer hangers on against women), with nothing to do with "authoritarians" (unless Kotaku is an authoritarian publication I guess).

So, y'know, the title is accurate. Gamergate is a movement started by assholes comprised of assholes and people who are too stupid to realise that their only contribution is covering for assholes.

Nothing good has come of it, nothing good will come of it because its raison d'etre is to be assholes.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by AniThyng »

Vendetta wrote:
TheFeniX wrote: Either way, Fatnerds lost out to Dudebros long before people started pointing out the obvious sexism problems in video games. Honestly, no one in the industry cares what they think unless they are making death threats or yelling slurs at women. It is the only reason they are relevant.
See, I don't think dudebros are actually that attached to gaming and don't even care. It's not that fatnerds lost to dudebros, it's that fatnerds and dudebros were secretly the same people all along.

It's not just "ubisoft release the same Assassin's Creed 22 times" but "Assassin's Creed has the same guy in forever, nobody realises this is boring".
A phenomenon that is hardly unique to western (pop?) culture, for what it's worth. Exhibit A - mass market shounen manga protaganists. Also, I do tend to agree that it's probably better to write what you know than to make a hash out of throwing in "diversity" and getting it all wrong*

*and even then, I find it an inherent contradiction to get offended when a character does not conform to 'the real culture' while also being offended if the character conforms too much (thus becoming a "stereotype". Let us leave aside for a moment that white people do not have a monopoly on stereotypes)
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

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AniThyng wrote:A phenomenon that is hardly unique to western (pop?) culture, for what it's worth. Exhibit A - mass market shounen manga protaganists. Also, I do tend to agree that it's probably better to write what you know than to make a hash out of throwing in "diversity" and getting it all wrong*
Remember that shonen manga is specifically aimed at a single demographic (in a country with relatively low ethnic diversity to begin with) and isn't the only type of commercial manga. Manga aimed specifically at girls, and adaptations thereof, are commercially mainstream as well even if there's less of it due to purchasing trends.

So y'know, the analogy holds to a degree, but being only as diverse as shonen manga should actually be considered a bad thing anyway for western media given the greater diversity of the culture producing the work.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by AniThyng »

Vendetta wrote:
AniThyng wrote:A phenomenon that is hardly unique to western (pop?) culture, for what it's worth. Exhibit A - mass market shounen manga protaganists. Also, I do tend to agree that it's probably better to write what you know than to make a hash out of throwing in "diversity" and getting it all wrong*
Remember that shonen manga is specifically aimed at a single demographic (in a country with relatively low ethnic diversity to begin with) and isn't the only type of commercial manga. Manga aimed specifically at girls, and adaptations thereof, are commercially mainstream as well even if there's less of it due to purchasing trends.

So y'know, the analogy holds to a degree, but being only as diverse as shonen manga should actually be considered a bad thing anyway for western media given the greater diversity of the culture producing the work.
Which is to me a curious thing that again seems sometimes often very contradictory because I am familiar with the subset of thinking that goes "it is a profound insult to me to assume that I as a woman need a game/book targeted at me as a woman, I just want to play call of duty, not the sims (to use a stereotypical game that has a strong cross gender appeal)" and I am familiar enough with mainstream shoujo manga that I can state fairly confidently that it is the cultural equivalent of a mills and boon novel, that is to say painfully gender stereotyped. So are the gaming equivalent of such media what people really want here? Or is it changing the attitude where people think it odd that a girl would play Call of Duty?

Well there's also I suppose stating that we want games that manage to appeal to all without special exceptions, much like manga that manage to appeal to all, (I suppose a good case in point for this are Full Metal Alchemist and Inuyasha - but these are really picking the literal cream of the crop here and very much the exceptions that prove the rule (I'm well over my "manga is teh bestes ever" phase)
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Wild Zontargs »

Vendetta wrote:On the other hand, the demonstrable effects of the movement have invariably been "gamers against women" (and also some non-gamer hangers on against women), with nothing to do with "authoritarians" (unless Kotaku is an authoritarian publication I guess).

So, y'know, the title is accurate. Gamergate is a movement started by assholes comprised of assholes and people who are too stupid to realise that their only contribution is covering for assholes.

Nothing good has come of it, nothing good will come of it because its raison d'etre is to be assholes.
OK, to avoid conflating two separate issues, do you mean:

a) "gamers against [individuals who happen to be] women"
or
b) "gamers against women [as a class, because they are women]"

I agree that "a" is the case, but disagree that it qualifies as misogyny. I do not agree that "b" is the case. The GG people are not disagreeing with specific women because they are women, but rather for their expressed opinions.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Vendetta »

Wild Zontargs wrote:I agree that "a" is the case, but disagree that it qualifies as misogyny. I do not agree that "b" is the case. The GG people are not disagreeing with specific women because they are women, but rather for their expressed opinions.
Except when men have expressed the same opinions they do not receive anywhere near the same level of response.

So, y'know, it's trivially obvious that the gender of the person expressing the opinion is relevant to the response. The people responding specifically dislike that a woman is expressing the opinion.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Wild Zontargs »

Vendetta wrote:Except when men have expressed the same opinions they do not receive anywhere near the same level of response.

So, y'know, it's trivially obvious that the gender of the person expressing the opinion is relevant to the response. The people responding specifically dislike that a woman is expressing the opinion.
Do the men expressing the same opinions have the same audience? Are they originating the opinion or repeating it? Are they as well known to the audience as the women? The difference in response may be due to the difference in audience size, composition, previous exposure to that opinion, and level of engagement. It does not automatically follow that the difference is because of the gender of the person expressing the opinion, rather than other criteria that happen to be correlated with gender in that instance.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Purple »

Wild Zontargs wrote:Unless you want to define "misogyny" as being in favor of equal treatment for men and women of all sexual orientations without demanding equal outcomes for all, being in favor of gay marriage and abortion rights without demanding that those who disagree be fired, not declaring certain words and ideas to be unthinkable and unspeakable, not declaring that you're forbidden from disagreeing with or criticizing certain people, and being against identity politics in general, I don't see how you can pigeonhole the entire movement as misogynist. Are there true misogynists in the movement (as opposed to deliberate invocations of Poe's law)? Almost certainly. Do they make up a majority of it? Survey says no.

Misogyny is "hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women, or prejudice against women", not "people who were nasty to this specific woman" or "people who don't completely agree with a specific school of feminism and/or social justice".
It would be interesting if something like that pool could be set up on this forum to see what the regulars think. Preferably in an anonymous way.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by madd0ct0r »

You see, I see the following:

"Those who try to define what is socially acceptable or unacceptable often have authoritarian instincts, and should not be trusted." 4% disagree, 11% neutral, 85% agree

"Nothing, no matter how offensive, should be off-limits to art or comedy" 3% disagree, 4% neutral, 92% agree

""Safe spaces" and "Trigger warnings" are just convenient masks for policing speech, art, and opinions." 4% disagree, 11% neutral, 87% agree

"If there is a feminist movement, there should also be a men's rights movement." 10% disagree, 21% neutral, 69% agree

""Positive" discrimination is no better than any other form of discrimination and should be opposed" 7% disagree, 14% neutral, 79% agree

and conclude the survey takers were mostly males interested in maintaining the status quo.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Wild Zontargs »

I'm not sure that support for gay marriage, abortion rights, equal standards, addressing the gap between rich and poor, tackling tax avoidance, decreasing debt levels, opposing the unfettered free market, wanting action on global warming, being pro-nuclear, opposing the "war on terror", and wanting military spending cut counts as "maintaining the status quo". One can oppose the policies of specific schools of feminism and/or social justice without being an anti-feminist reactionary.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by madd0ct0r »

sorry, should have spelt out "maintaining the status quo in gender politics"
so let's drop the items that have nothing to do with gender shall we?

gay marriage, abortion rights, equal standards, addressing the gap between rich and poor, tackling tax avoidance, decreasing debt levels, opposing the unfettered free market, wanting action on global warming, being pro-nuclear, opposing the "war on terror", and wanting military spending cut counts as "maintaining the status quo".

now your 'equal standards' runs right into the one I've noted above which is also massive opposition to positive discrimination. Considering the gender gap in pay generally, the abuse targeted at females perceived as outspoken that has been documented throughout the thread (and then note the massive support for the right to offensive speech, depictions of rape ect in games and casual claim that anyone trying to restrict their 'free speech' is authoritarian, untrustworthy and deceitful (see trigger warnings)

again, from your own post:

"Those who try to define what is socially acceptable or unacceptable often have authoritarian instincts, and should not be trusted." 4% disagree, 11% neutral, 85% agree

"Nothing, no matter how offensive, should be off-limits to art or comedy" 3% disagree, 4% neutral, 92% agree

""Safe spaces" and "Trigger warnings" are just convenient masks for policing speech, art, and opinions." 4% disagree, 11% neutral, 87% agree

"If there is a feminist movement, there should also be a men's rights movement." 10% disagree, 21% neutral, 69% agree

""Positive" discrimination is no better than any other form of discrimination and should be opposed" 7% disagree, 14% neutral, 79% agree

At best these guys are not pro equality, they are pro the right of everyone to behave as badly as they do. I wonder if you asked them are men and women currently eqaul how many would say yes? They are pro the current situation, the status quo, claiming 'grey liberal' positions, which is the default position of any group already at the top since it lets them do what they like. This is like fucking kindergarten level politics, are you just trying to not see it?
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Purple »

madd0ct0r wrote:At best these guys are not pro equality, they are pro the right of everyone to behave as badly as they do. I wonder if you asked them are men and women currently eqaul how many would say yes? They are pro the current situation, the status quo, claiming 'grey liberal' positions, which is the default position of any group already at the top since it lets them do what they like. This is like fucking kindergarten level politics, are you just trying to not see it?
He is not the only one than. I am not seeing your point either. The entire discussion can be split into two categories:
1. Freedom of speech and comedy/video games.
2. "equal outcome" vs "equal opportunity".

Which one in particular of the two do you have a problem with?
Do you feel that games should be censored in order to remain inoffensive as opposed to just having a warning label so that people who would be offended can just not buy the game? Or do you feel that we should be working toward equal outcome as opposed to equal opportunity? Or both?

And before you get the wrong idea. This post is me trying to analyze your argument to see how to respond to it and thus asking for you to provide more data for me to work from.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by madd0ct0r »

both I think.

1) people associated with gamergate have done their best to shut down or swamp feminist critial readings of games (critical reading in this case meaning analysis, much as you can do a historical critical reading, or a marxist critical reading ect)

2) Equal opportunity is not currently present, but they like to think it is. So they can claim truthfully they believe they support equal opportunity, and claim truthfully they do not support equal outcomes and protect their status quo.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Wild Zontargs »

madd0ct0r wrote:sorry, should have spelt out "maintaining the status quo in gender politics"
so let's drop the items that have nothing to do with gender shall we?
Fair enough.
now your 'equal standards' runs right into the one I've noted above which is also massive opposition to positive discrimination. Considering the gender gap in pay generally, the abuse targeted at females perceived as outspoken that has been documented throughout the thread (and then note the massive support for the right to offensive speech, depictions of rape ect in games and casual claim that anyone trying to restrict their 'free speech' is authoritarian, untrustworthy and deceitful (see trigger warnings)
a) People can honestly believe in the principle of equal rights and opportunity rather than equal outcomes without being self-interested assholes.

b) The pay gap is yet another issue we can go 'round and 'round on. Side A says it exists, and provides studies. Side B says that when you control for factors A-Z, the pay gap dwindles to nearly nothing or even disappears. Side A insists that B is controlling for too much and defined the gap out of existence on purpose. Side B says A is moving the goalposts. And so on and so forth. I'm not going there.

c) Abuse of anyone is bad. That said, if you're not implying that said outspoken women are being targeted because they are women rather than because of their opinions, it's irrelevant to this particular point. If you are, kindly show that it's a core attitude of the group rather than a comparatively small number of bad actors who may not even properly identify with the group.

d) People can honestly believe in unfettered free speech without being self-interested assholes.
At best these guys are not pro equality, they are pro the right of everyone to behave as badly as they do. I wonder if you asked them are men and women currently eqaul how many would say yes? They are pro the current situation, the status quo, claiming 'grey liberal' positions, which is the default position of any group already at the top since it lets them do what they like. This is like fucking kindergarten level politics, are you just trying to not see it?
No, I'm simply not ascribing malicious intent or even apathy to them. If we apply the principle of charity, don't start from the assumption that 'they're assholes for the sake of being assholes', and consider that they really are in favor of free expression and equal rights and opportunities because they think that those are good values (rather than 'because assholes'), it is entirely possible that they have a rational complaint against what they see as authoritarian censorship and social engineering.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Joun_Lord »

madd0ct0r wrote:At best these guys are not pro equality, they are pro the right of everyone to behave as badly as they do.
Or they are pro-equality, just not your brand. From how I read it they are are for equality but are also for not forcing people to abide by the perceived world views of other people. The libertarianish "you do your shit, I do mine". They don't want to be forced to censor their speech.

Part of it probably is people wanting to be assholes, people who want to get away with calling people n-word this and c-word that and scream FREE SPEECH when someone gets offended.

Others don't want to be asshole and don't want others to be assholes to them by baring them from saying things they might disagree with. People can't talk about weight loss because it might trigger someone. Can't criticize women or discuss male inequality without being labeled as a misogynist. Can't crack a joke or make comedy of something because it might offend someone. Don't want people dictating what is socially acceptable be it conservaturds saying being gaymosexuals, atheists, and pro-women rights are bad or liberats saying being proudly straight, christian, or pro-mens rights is not good for society. Authoritarianism and imposing of wills on others is bad whatever side of the aisle the imposition is coming from.

And as for the positive discrimination, their opposition to it doesn't mean they are automatically anti-equality either. Some believe affirmative action is no longer needed as we got a semi-black muslim president. Others believe that affirmative action is unfair to give only certain people a leg up, why should some poor inner city black youth get a leg up but not a poor rural country redneck youth, both are just as impoverished and unlikely to succeed (the white country boy's white privilege be damned). Affirmative action now is just creating a new inequality or covering up other forms of inequality. Still others might believe affirmative action should these days be less about skin color and more about actual need, the poor white and black boys both have equal need for help.

Whether any of those opinions is anchored in truth or not I've not a clue (though I do have the DVD) but still my point stands they aren't automatically anti-equality and may be against positive discrimination because they believe other ways are better for equality so you cun't just say "they hate equality and puppies and Val Kilmer for the 08 Knight Rider". Well you could but you shouldn't, nobody hates puppies.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Purple »

madd0ct0r wrote:1) people associated with gamergate have done their best to shut down or swamp feminist critial readings of games (critical reading in this case meaning analysis, much as you can do a historical critical reading, or a marxist critical reading ect)
After looking the term up on Wikipedia it seems to describe the sort of over thinking analysis of a work that they made us do in grade school. Is that what this is? If so, I am basically opposed to it existing on principal. If not, than I am confused.

Either way as WZ said a person can honestly believe in unfettered free speech without being bad people. And in fact I likely find my self on that side as well.
2) Equal opportunity is not currently present, but they like to think it is. So they can claim truthfully they believe they support equal opportunity, and claim truthfully they do not support equal outcomes and protect their status quo.
Or perhaps they understand that equal opportunity is not currently present but they oppose measures aimed at "equal outcome" because they feel that these measures are counterproductive toward creating a state of "equal opportunity". There is a good case to be made for the notion that instead of aiming for "equal outcome" we should be aiming to correct society and educate people in an attempt to create a state of "equal opportunity".
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Do you feel that games should be censored in order to remain inoffensive as opposed to just having a warning label so that people who would be offended can just not buy the game? Or do you feel that we should be working toward equal outcome as opposed to equal opportunity? Or both?
Think about this for a minute. If equal opportunity exists, then the outcome should be determined ONLY by differences in individual capacity. There are no systematic differences between the sexes except in things like upper body strength. So if a man and a woman have the same qualifications and work experience in say, oh, I dont know, corporate management, why do women get paid less? The company has an equal opportunity policy and everything!

Because equal opportunity is Bullshit. It implies equal outcomes by <insert category>. but never actually delivers. It does not even come close.

As for gaming, no one wants to censor games. What feminist critics do is take the position that we should examine what we put in our literature (and yes, games with a narrative are literature) and decide if we as a culture want to continue certain practices. Practices like the objectification of female characters (this is different from having sexy female characters), excluding women from being main protagonists, erasing gay and transgendered people from narratives etc.

Trigger warnings exist so that people who have actually experienced horrible things can make an informed choice. "Hey, this game contains a graphic rape scene. If you have been raped and dont want to have flashbacks or panic attacks, be forewarned". Whether rape should be depicted or not is another question. At the very least, how it is depicted should probably change.

But even pointing out that the Women In Refrigerators trope exists, or that rape is often depicted in a manner that reduces it to a consequence-and-thought-free story hook, earns feminists death threats from the basement neckbeards. Bioware including gay characters in their games earned them long angry screeds on their forums from the same neckbeards.
After looking the term up on Wikipedia it seems to describe the sort of over thinking analysis of a work that they made us do in grade school. Is that what this is? If so, I am basically opposed to it existing on principal. If not, than I am confused.
No. It is not. There is such a thing as over-analysis, but if the vast majority of single-protagonist action/rpg games have a rugged male protagonist archetype who has to go rescue a helpless princess archetype, something is being said about how we view women in our culture.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Purple »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Do you feel that games should be censored in order to remain inoffensive as opposed to just having a warning label so that people who would be offended can just not buy the game? Or do you feel that we should be working toward equal outcome as opposed to equal opportunity? Or both?
Think about this for a minute. If equal opportunity exists, then the outcome should be determined ONLY by differences in individual capacity. There are no systematic differences between the sexes except in things like upper body strength. So if a man and a woman have the same qualifications and work experience in say, oh, I dont know, corporate management, why do women get paid less? The company has an equal opportunity policy and everything!

Because equal opportunity is Bullshit. It implies equal outcomes by <insert category>. but never actually delivers. It does not even come close.
Actually "equal opportunity" is an ideal. A desired state of a future society that some feel we should strive toward. It's not bullshit. And frankly it beats what we have now with endemic inequality being patched over by measures which only serve as a band aid whilst causing even more outrage from the group causing the inequality to begin with. The current state can't and should not be seen as something that is to last forever.

So a case can be made for the notion that we today should direct our efforts toward stamping out the causes of inequality for the sake of future generations instead of trying to help people in the here and now. As in, don't spend money on helping the oppressed minority but on trying to educate the oppressing majority on why oppressing the minority is wrong. And than the oppression will stop and things will get better. Now this is not saying that this stance is something I completely agree with. I do to some extent but I feel we should be doing both at once. But it is there. And it is a reasonable stance to take.
As for gaming, no one wants to censor games. What feminist critics do is take the position that we should examine what we put in our literature (and yes, games with a narrative are literature) and decide if we as a culture want to continue certain practices. Practices like the objectification of female characters (this is different from having sexy female characters), excluding women from being main protagonists, erasing gay and transgendered people from narratives etc.
That IS censorship. Saying that we "as a culture" should decide what "we" want to do implies that there exists such a thing as a single monolithic culture we can all agree on. And that is as you so nicely put it bullshit.

I do not contest that we most definitively should seek to introduce other forms of stories. I personally would like to see them. But the bottom line is that there are plenty of people who like the sort of thing being put out now. And that it is morally wrong to tell them they should not have access to what they want because it offends some of us just as much as it would be morally wrong from them to force us to watch these things.
Trigger warnings exist so that people who have actually experienced horrible things can make an informed choice. "Hey, this game contains a graphic rape scene. If you have been raped and dont want to have flashbacks or panic attacks, be forewarned".
I thought they existed so that anyone who can read can make an informed choice. "Hey, I do not agree with this content. It for what ever reason I have does not sound enjoyable to me." Your definition basically assumes that anyone who has not had a horrible thing happen to them would have no problem watching something like a graphic rape scene.
Whether rape should be depicted or not is another question.
I do not really see a question here. The principal of free speech says yes.
At the very least, how it is depicted should probably change.
Why? Do artists not have the right to depict what ever the hell they want in what ever way they see fit to do so? Saying no is by definition a call for censorship.
But even pointing out that the Women In Refrigerators trope exists, or that rape is often depicted in a manner that reduces it to a consequence-and-thought-free story hook, earns feminists death threats from the basement neckbeards.
I am going to put my opinion of this issue this way. And I probably am not the only one who feels this way.
1. I see absolutely nothing wrong with rape being depicted as a consequence-and-thought-free story hook. I won't enjoy a story that uses it this way because it is disgusting to me personally. But this is my personal taste and not something I am going to impose on others.
2. I see absolutely nothing wrong with anyone, feminist or not finding it offensive and whining about it.
3. I see absolutely nothing wrong with anyone, feminist or not finding their whining offensive and whining back about it.
4. I find anyone going beyond whining and demanding either censorship or making threats to be unacceptable. As it goes beyond free speech.
Bioware including gay characters in their games earned them long angry screeds on their forums from the same neckbeards.
As long as it's just angry shouting that's not a problem. People have every right to shout angrily at anyone who they feel displeased them. It's how our modern society works. As an old joke goes where I am from. "In a dictatorship you need to keep your mouth shut. In a democracy you can say what ever you want but no one is going care about what you say."
No. It is not. There is such a thing as over-analysis, but if the vast majority of single-protagonist action/rpg games have a rugged male protagonist archetype who has to go rescue a helpless princess archetype, something is being said about how we view women in our culture.
In that case, no complaint there. I just basically got a grade school flashback.

This said, I feel that it is very, very wrong to focus on any one medium of social expression when talking about these things. And this is because as the name I chose might hint art is just an expression of the society that creates it. If most games do indeed have a rugged male protagonist archetype who has to go rescue a helpless princess archetype than this is what the majority of our society in its current state wants to buy. And you feel this is bad than what you should focus on changing the society to influence demand and not try to change art to force your view down societies throat. One creates an organic change that goes over well with people. The other forces people to change against their will.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Actually "equal opportunity" is an ideal. A desired state of a future society that some feel we should strive toward. It's not bullshit. And frankly it beats what we have now with endemic inequality being patched over by measures which only serve as a band aid whilst causing even more outrage from the group causing the inequality to begin with. The current state can't and should not be seen as something that is to last forever.
Nice job ignoring the entire rest of the argument in favor of latching on to one sentence and stripping it of its surrounding context in order to build a strawman. It was a work of art.

It is worth noting however, that the people crowing about how we should strive for equal opportunity rather than outcome, also tend to deny the existence of systematic discrimination in the first place.

It is one thing to say "We cannot fix this problem using a band-aid, but must address the root cause and strive for actual equal opportunity". It is another to say "We already have equal opportunity, pay no attention to that transwoman who cannot use public restrooms in the corner"
That IS censorship. Saying that we "as a culture" should decide what "we" want to do implies that there exists such a thing as a single monolithic culture we can all agree on. And that is as you so nicely put it bullshit.
No moron. Censorship comes from the top-down. Not from the people involved being convinced that they dont want to do it anymore. Is it censorship for me to be convinced by an argument that the Dachau Rape Machine in Cthulhutech is fucked up, and thus I do not wish to have anything to do with Cthulhutech? Or for the makers of the said game to remove their twisted rape fantasies after being convinced that the degree to which they have tentacular rape machines in their game is too disturbing even for 4chan?

Obviously Not.

Take your strawmen and shove them up your own ass.
As long as it's just angry shouting that's not a problem. People have every right to shout angrily at anyone who they feel displeased them.
They have every right. That does NOT mean that they are not shitty fucking people.
And you feel this is bad than what you should focus on changing the society to influence demand and not try to change art to force your view down societies throat.
You do that through argumentation, which you have already decried as censorship.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
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