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Stuart Mackey
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Post by Stuart Mackey »

jegs2 wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:Screw you jegs, who gave you the fucking right to dictate who can say what and when?
Do you not get tired of people saying they are against something without offering a feasible alternative for that which they say they are against? If you do not, then it speaks volumes, for you obviously do not care to be part of the solution, but rather the problem. Lead, follow, or get out of the way, and let others lead.
idiot, I said "who gave you the fucking right to dictate who can say what and when?"

Who the fuck do you think you are?
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Post by jegs2 »

Stuart Mackey wrote:
jegs2 wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:Screw you jegs, who gave you the fucking right to dictate who can say what and when?
Do you not get tired of people saying they are against something without offering a feasible alternative for that which they say they are against? If you do not, then it speaks volumes, for you obviously do not care to be part of the solution, but rather the problem. Lead, follow, or get out of the way, and let others lead.
idiot, I said "who gave you the fucking right to dictate who can say what and when?"

Who the fuck do you think you are?
Are you going to continue to drool your useless blather, or are you going to offer a recommended alternative to an invasion of Iraq?
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Post by jegs2 »

This is a reply to Spyder, on whom I realized I was a bit hard this morning. I'd like to offer my apology for lashing out at your reply as I did. Frankly, it's uncharacteristic of me to do such things. As for an explanation as to why I launched a sabot round into your chest, I've heard far too many say they oppose an invasion of Iraq without offering a recommended alternative. While that does boil my blood and make me want to rip peoples faces off, it is still no excuse.
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Post by Spyder »

Thank you, I will now elaborate on my response.

By saying 'not go ot war' I was actually suggesting an alternative without suggesting an alternative. Sneaky? Well not really... but anyway, is the world going to blow up unless someone starts carpet bombing Iraq? Probably not.

Let the diplomats and the inspectors do their jobs, if they find something or get expelled then you can all have your little war.

Until then let's 'not go to war'.
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Post by Sir Sirius »

Jegs2 wrote:Demonstrate how a personal belief in a coming life has any relation to the topic at hand...
It is an insult you moron, not an arqument. And your personal beliefs demonstrate that you are not a rationalist, the very same thing you were faulting Spyder for. (<-Insult, not an arqument.)
Jegs2 wrote:Examples are Germany and Japan.
The situation with Iraq is nowhere near the same as that with Germany and Japan, they declared a war on you, not the other way around, remember that minor historical fact? Now you are about to invade Iraq, you are the ones starting this war. Also neither Germany nor Japan were/are located in the middle of a rather flamable region of the world and neither were facing the threat of Islamic fundamentalism.
Jegs2 wrote:Cut out the strawman arguments and answer my counterargument...
Fucking retard! (<-Insult, not an arqument.) It is an insult, not arqument! Read your first post in this thread, You started with the insult.

OK, Jegs2 how about you make an itemized list of the objectives and goles the war would achive. Please include an explanation as to why these objectives and goals are so neccesary that they justify the invasion of Iraq and the casualties of the war. So far all you have been doing is demanding alternatives for objectives and goals that you have at no point specified, let alone justified.

Also since you are suggesting a course of action that will result in the loss of life you need to prove that these objectives and goals will actualy be a result of the invasion, IMHO you must proof it beyond reasonable doubt. I mean the U.S. judicial system grants this level of protection to any criminal on trial, I think that it is only fair that you grant the same level of protection to the men, women and children, most of whom have done nothing wrong, that will die in the invasion as you do to murderers and rapists.
So, no wishfull thinking.
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Post by Axis Kast »

OK, Jegs2 how about you make an itemized list of the objectives and goles the war would achive. Please include an explanation as to why these objectives and goals are so neccesary that they justify the invasion of Iraq and the casualties of the war. So far all you have been doing is demanding alternatives for objectives and goals that you have at no point specified, let alone justified.

Also since you are suggesting a course of action that will result in the loss of life you need to prove that these objectives and goals will actualy be a result of the invasion, IMHO you must proof it beyond reasonable doubt. I mean the U.S. judicial system grants this level of protection to any criminal on trial, I think that it is only fair that you grant the same level of protection to the men, women and children, most of whom have done nothing wrong, that will die in the invasion as you do to murderers and rapists.
So, no wishfull thinking.
The goals of intervention including (A) régime-change, (B) total, forced disarmament of the Republic of Iraq, (C) elimination of a major terrorist benefactor on the nation-state level, (D) the foundation of a democratic Republic of Iraq “friendly” to the interests of Coalition governments, (E) at this point, proving to the United Nations that America will pursue, with allies, all national security and other vital interests even outside official sanction of the majority. On long-range levels, one might also ascribe to the United States a desire to position American companies in Iraq vis a vie reconstruction (contracts) and exploration of new oil concessions, thus depriving these benefits to foreign business interests.
By saying 'not go ot war' I was actually suggesting an alternative without suggesting an alternative. Sneaky? Well not really... but anyway, is the world going to blow up unless someone starts carpet bombing Iraq? Probably not.
A ridiculous argument. Elimination of the Hussein régime clearly implies full and total disarmament as well as the end of a major security threat to American allies in the region including Israel and Turkey.

Stepping back now in the face of majority opinion will merely solidify and encourage future opposition to controversial American interests and encourage nascent dictatorships worldwide to bargain and horse-trade with Chirac, Schroeder, Putin and others for protection against American ire and power projection on the United Nations floor. We cannot afford to present any of these craven, self-serving parties with that sort of message.
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Post by Alyeska »

jegs2 wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:
jegs2 wrote: Do you not get tired of people saying they are against something without offering a feasible alternative for that which they say they are against? If you do not, then it speaks volumes, for you obviously do not care to be part of the solution, but rather the problem. Lead, follow, or get out of the way, and let others lead.
idiot, I said "who gave you the fucking right to dictate who can say what and when?"

Who the fuck do you think you are?
Are you going to continue to drool your useless blather, or are you going to offer a recommended alternative to an invasion of Iraq?
We already have you idiot. DON'T INVADE. Its really that fucking simple.
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Post by Axis Kast »

No. "Don't invade," is an action - not a plan.

How do you plan to deal with the new can of worms on an international level? You'll be consigning to step down, discredit the United States of America as an action willing and able to pursue its own national security interests, encourage future opposition to our foreign policy by the self-same European community, and worse, present nascent dictatorships worldwide with an example wherein one of the most hated régimes the Middle East has ever seen can evade destruction via a series of craven horse-trades with the European community.
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Post by Alyeska »

Axis Kast wrote:No. "Don't invade," is an action - not a plan.

How do you plan to deal with the new can of worms on an international level? You'll be consigning to step down, discredit the United States of America as an action willing and able to pursue its own national security interests, encourage future opposition to our foreign policy by the self-same European community, and worse, present nascent dictatorships worldwide with an example wherein one of the most hated régimes the Middle East has ever seen can evade destruction via a series of craven horse-trades with the European community.
I don't care a rats ass about the worlds opinion. I don't think we should not attack because they told us not to. I think we should not attack because its the wrong thing to do. I do think we should deal with North Korea swiftly and effectively and tell Kim to shape up or ship out.
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Post by Sir Sirius »

Axis Kast wrote:The goals of intervention including (A) régime-change, (B) total, forced disarmament of the Republic of Iraq, (C) elimination of a major terrorist benefactor on the nation-state level, (D) the foundation of a democratic Republic of Iraq “friendly” to the interests of Coalition governments, (E) at this point, proving to the United Nations that America will pursue, with allies, all national security and other vital interests even outside official sanction of the majority.
Well, you totaly omited the part where you explain how these justify an invasion, but lets see...
(A) A regime change is not a justification a war at all, no alternative needed.
(B) Omit the word "forced" and continued weapons inspections will achief this (assuming that there are WMD in Iraq to disarm in the first place).
(C) Please list terrorist attacks that Iraq is responsible for, either directly or indirectly (and the evidence proving that Iraq is responsible in one way or another).
(D) I said no wishfull thinking, prove that the invasion will result in a truly democratic goverment in Iraq (no, a U.S. puppet goverment would not count as being truly democratic). Establishing a U.S. “friendly” in Iraq is not a justification for a war.
(E) ? Are you saying that American chest pounding and unilateralism are justification for the invasion of Iraq?
Axis Kast wrote:On long-range levels, one might also ascribe to the United States a desire to position American companies in Iraq vis a vie reconstruction (contracts) and exploration of new oil concessions, thus depriving these benefits to foreign business interests.
Sorry, but greed does not justify the invasion of Iraq.
Axis Kast wrote:Elimination of the Hussein régime clearly implies full and total disarmament as well as the end of a major security threat to American allies in the region including Israel and Turkey.
According to the CIA the military threat of Iraq is at it's lowest point in a decade. According to former UN weapons inspectors Iraq has already been mostly disarmed of WMD.
Axis Kast wrote:Stepping back now in the face of majority opinion will merely solidify and encourage future opposition to controversial American interests [Yeah, controversial indeed.] and encourage nascent dictatorships worldwide to bargain and horse-trade with Chirac, Schroeder, Putin and others for protection against American ire and power projection on the United Nations floor. We cannot afford to present any of these craven, self-serving parties with that sort of message.
So Americas self-serving interrests are a justification for an invasion of Iraq and the casualties of that war?
Uh, no, I don't think so.
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Post by Axis Kast »

I don't care a rats ass about the worlds opinion. I don't think we should not attack because they told us not to. I think we should not attack because its the wrong thing to do. I do think we should deal with North Korea swiftly and effectively and tell Kim to shape up or ship out.
But world opinion matters whether or not you believe it is important. You cannot simply ignore realities of a given situation because it suits you on a personal level.

Why is attacking a known threat to the United States and its allies over the protests of a craven and largely self-serving international community the “wrong thing to do?”

Deal with North Korea in a fashion other than President Bush has already prescribed? On what level? What is your plan for engaging a man whose overthrow and elimination would necessitate the deployment of over seven-hundred thousand American troops alongside millions of South Koreans in a fight certain to utterly devastate the peninsula as a whole – never mind Japan or the possible collateral damage that might extend as far north as the People’s Republic of China.

Are we going to engage Kim on a bilateral level at the insistence of a South Korea still seeking punitive revenge against Washington for Bush’s dismissal of the “Sunshine Policy” as premature and dangerous? Are we going to pay another ten billion and provide two more nuclear reactors to the North Koreans in return for a false silence – because Pyongyang certainly isn’t about to rearm or submit to inspections. And we already know how the Democratic People’s Republic feels about the validity of international treaties or signed documents such as non-aggression pacts. Hell, they’ve ignored the armistice countless times since its inception. Remember their engagement of a South Korean flotilla last summer? So you’re going to legitimize Kim with direct engagement that will cost America billions but do nothing more than silence Kim for a temporary period? Japan will still be in grave danger, no? South Korea will still have to contend with a militarizing North Korea, yes? Far better to follow our policy of “silent containment,” arming Japan for the possibility of defensive war, providing constant observation of the North, and attempting to draw all regional players into a summit based on hammering out the kind of peace they desire.
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Post by Alyeska »

Axis Kast wrote:
I don't care a rats ass about the worlds opinion. I don't think we should not attack because they told us not to. I think we should not attack because its the wrong thing to do. I do think we should deal with North Korea swiftly and effectively and tell Kim to shape up or ship out.
But world opinion matters whether or not you believe it is important. You cannot simply ignore realities of a given situation because it suits you on a personal level.
You are totally contradictory. First you states world opinion doesn't mater and that the US should do what it wants. Now your saying that world opinion does mater and that the US should take that into consideration.
Why is attacking a known threat to the United States and its allies over the protests of a craven and largely self-serving international community the “wrong thing to do?”
What threat? Iraq can't do shit and you damned well ought to know that.
Deal with North Korea in a fashion other than President Bush has already prescribed? On what level? What is your plan for engaging a man whose overthrow and elimination would necessitate the deployment of over seven-hundred thousand American troops alongside millions of South Koreans in a fight certain to utterly devastate the peninsula as a whole – never mind Japan or the possible collateral damage that might extend as far north as the People’s Republic of China.
Lets see... Kim has killed more of his people, actually has nuclear weapons, threatens an important economic ally (actually two, South Korea and Japan) and might actually sell nuclear weapons to less then savory characters. And what devestating war? North Korea has the same damned technology that Iraq has? How does fighting in Korea suddenly mean were going to loose massively when in Iraq fighting against the same technology were going to win in 6 weeks? Oh, the nukes? B-2 bombers take care of that.
Are we going to engage Kim on a bilateral level at the insistence of a South Korea still seeking punitive revenge against Washington for Bush’s dismissal of the “Sunshine Policy” as premature and dangerous? Are we going to pay another ten billion and provide two more nuclear reactors to the North Koreans in return for a false silence – because Pyongyang certainly isn’t about to rearm or submit to inspections. And we already know how the Democratic People’s Republic feels about the validity of international treaties or signed documents such as non-aggression pacts. Hell, they’ve ignored the armistice countless times since its inception. Remember their engagement of a South Korean flotilla last summer? So you’re going to legitimize Kim with direct engagement that will cost America billions but do nothing more than silence Kim for a temporary period? Japan will still be in grave danger, no? South Korea will still have to contend with a militarizing North Korea, yes? Far better to follow our policy of “silent containment,” arming Japan for the possibility of defensive war, providing constant observation of the North, and attempting to draw all regional players into a summit based on hammering out the kind of peace they desire.
Thats why you tell Kim to shape up or ship out. If he doesn't do what he should and stop threatening Soth Korea and Japan, the US will forcibly remove him as a threat.

I find it interesting how people use Saddam's threat as a reason to remove him but also use Kims threat as a reason to leave him be. Either we put up or shut up. Saddam is a pathetic 3rd world dictator who couldn't even hold on to a small country like Kuwait and can't be bothered to actually train his soldiers effectively. Kim is also a pathetic 3rd world dictator, but he is just slightly more dangerous and threatening.
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Post by Axis Kast »

A regime change is not a justification a war at all, no alternative needed.
It certainly is when régime-change is necessary for total disarmament to secure the safety of the United States and its allies. Whether or not this fits in with your idealistic concept of a happy, fuzzy world does not come into play. Might makes right my friend. And right now, we’ve got all the might – and therefore all the right – we need.
Omit the word "forced" and continued weapons inspections will achief this (assuming that there are WMD in Iraq to disarm in the first place).
Without hundreds of thousands of American troops at his borders, Hussein wouldn’t be at all disarming.

Continued weapons inspections of the type that failed in both North Korea and Israel? Of the type that Hussein leads around by the nose and subsequently invites the Europeans to rely on when they oppose – for various, craven purposes – American action in the first place?

Iraq is confirmed to have biological and chemical weapons as well as certain components necessary for the development of a nascent nuclear program. They also posses a series of prohibited missiles and the infrastructure to make those same weapons with four times as much thrust as well as – according to Hans Blix, no less – banned drones capable of delivering toxins or viral strains against American targets.
Please list terrorist attacks that Iraq is responsible for, either directly or indirectly (and the evidence proving that Iraq is responsible in one way or another).
Iraq is a confirmed supporter of both HAMAS and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad as well as other Palestinian terrorist organizations. Each of these groups has encouraged violent “Holy War” against the United States and is responsible for the deaths of multiple American citizens. [1, 2]
I said no wishfull thinking, prove that the invasion will result in a truly democratic goverment in Iraq (no, a U.S. puppet goverment would not count as being truly democratic). Establishing a U.S. “friendly” in Iraq is not a justification for a war.
No wishful thinking? Then how is your argument over the validity of my points itself valid? You’re attempting to make arguments base on idealism – not reality.

Nobody can “prove” to you that a new government in Iraq will be supremely democratic, but the fact of the matter is that the United Nations will become involved and that his government will be far more representative – as well as far less dangerous – than that of Saddam Hussein. And yes, establishing a new government more friendly to America, its allies, and its interests is a legitimate goal from our point of view. The world isn’t a nice place. Live with it.
According to the CIA the military threat of Iraq is at it's lowest point in a decade. According to former UN weapons inspectors Iraq has already been mostly disarmed of WMD.
We’re not talking about the military threat of Iraq as far as its conventional weapons go.

I don’t trust the United Nations weapons inspectorate considering their past failures and current inability to do more than pull teeth on a selective basis. They’ve unconverted evidence enough as I noted in my second response.
So Americas self-serving interrests are a justification for an invasion of Iraq and the casualties of that war?
Certainly. Every bit as much as Europe’s self-interest gives it the right to oppose us. And if you don’t like that or find it lacking? Too bad, because it’s fact.

[1] “Iraq Stepping Up Support of Palestinian Uprising.” - http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/09/ ... 26481.html

[2] “Iraq Will Give Money to Palestinians Again.” - http://www.washtimes.com/world/20020914-18956330.htm
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Post by Sir Sirius »

Axis Kast wrote:Why is attacking a known threat to the United States and its allies over the protests of a craven and largely self-serving international community the “wrong thing to do?”
Because Iraq, at the current moment, poses no real military threat to the U.S. or any of it's allies.
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Post by Axis Kast »

You are totally contradictory. First you states world opinion doesn't mater and that the US should do what it wants. Now your saying that world opinion does mater and that the US should take that into consideration.
World opinion of us in terms of how willing others are to act against us or our objectives. It does not matter whether or not they support our invasion.

It’s a complex issue. In sum total, my point is that world opinion will come back to bite us in the backside far worse if we don’t go in than if we do. That said, we should avoid heeding global opinion as we make war on Iraq unless it is conducive to our point of view.
What threat? Iraq can't do shit and you damned well ought to know that.
No, I don’t know that. This is your opinion, not mine. Hussein is already indirectly responsible for the deaths of American citizens at the hands of Palestinian terrorist organizations. He likely has ties to al-Qaeda. He is comprehensively making a shambles of Resolution 1441 and developing the sort of infrastructure on a national level capable of supporting organized terrorism.
Lets see... Kim has killed more of his people, actually has nuclear weapons, threatens an important economic ally (actually two, South Korea and Japan) and might actually sell nuclear weapons to less then savory characters. And what devestating war? North Korea has the same damned technology that Iraq has? How does fighting in Korea suddenly mean were going to loose massively when in Iraq fighting against the same technology were going to win in 6 weeks? Oh, the nukes? B-2 bombers take care of that.
North Korea has an army of over one million as compared to Iraq’s several hundred thousand. North Korea’s is fully trained, highly competent, and well-defended by a network of anti-aircraft cannon and bunkers that make Kim’s the most heavily-defended country per-capita and per-kilometer on the face of the planet. Saddam Hussein’s men are largely disloyal, underfed, underpaid, and undergunned as well as ill-trained.

North Korea does have nuclear weapons, yes. But to get to them? How are we supposed to bomb a dirty reactor when doing so would spread radiological debris over an area spreading from Pusan to Tokyo, Beijing to Vladivostok?

Donald Rumsfeld estimates that at least seven-hundred thousand American troops would be necessary for a war on North Korea – alongside millions of South Korean fighting men. This does not take into account the fact that the Korean peninsula as a whole – and likely Japan as well – would also be caught in the crossfire or that the South Koreans refuse to view war as a legitimate option. We are, by the way, of the same opinion.

Iraq and North Korea are a world apart from a military perspective.
Thats why you tell Kim to shape up or ship out. If he doesn't do what he should and stop threatening Soth Korea and Japan, the US will forcibly remove him as a threat.

I find it interesting how people use Saddam's threat as a reason to remove him but also use Kims threat as a reason to leave him be. Either we put up or shut up. Saddam is a pathetic 3rd world dictator who couldn't even hold on to a small country like Kuwait and can't be bothered to actually train his soldiers effectively. Kim is also a pathetic 3rd world dictator, but he is just slightly more dangerous and threatening.
Kim is at this point untouchable for all the reasons I have outlined above. The man possess nuclear weapons capable of hitting cities on the West Coast of the United States of America.

Iraq is thankfully not yet in that position and it is hardly commendable strategy to throw oneself at a brick wall while ignoring more easily-eliminated threats that can only grow if not now challenged effectively.
Because Iraq, at the current moment, poses no real military threat to the U.S. or any of it's allies.
Only on a conventional level. And not according to Hans Blix. [1]

[1] “Iraq Drone ‘Could Drop Chemicals on Troops’” - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 70,00.html
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Post by Pu-239 »

Mr Bean wrote:Ted, What happens when people loose eletrical power for six hours? Incovenience, mild panic,

What happen's when they loose it for six days? Rioting, Looting, generaly lots of bad things


What do you think would happen if 30% of the US population was plunged into Darkness, No Heat, No Refigeration, No AC, No Cars, No Computers

The Internet would be smashed for one thing

Pretty much a giant mess, Not fatel unless everyone decides to kill each other off but a BIG FUCKING MESS
Fortunately my region is powered by Nukes (I think). Anyone know where to look it up?

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Post by Vympel »

Axis Kast wrote:
No, I don’t know that. This is your opinion, not mine. Hussein is already indirectly responsible for the deaths of American citizens at the hands of Palestinian terrorist organizations.
How do you figure?
He likely has ties to al-Qaeda.
Bullshit. No proof, constantly denied by every intelligence agency, and pretty bloody unlikely considering that UBL regards Saddam as a socialist heathen who he'd like to see dead.
He is comprehensively making a shambles of Resolution 1441 and developing the sort of infrastructure on a national level capable of supporting organized terrorism.
Sorry, but you actually have to provide proof of this 'terror infrastructure'. As for Resolution 1441, does that shambles include destroying the Al Samound missiles everyone was so uppity about (cheap kitbases of SA-2 missiles, actually), or providing Blix and the 'doves' more and more ammunition with each report that inspections can work if we let them?

North Korea has an army of over one million as compared to Iraq’s several hundred thousand.

North Korea’s is fully trained, highly competent, and well-defended by a network of anti-aircraft cannon and bunkers that make Kim’s the most heavily-defended country per-capita and per-kilometer on the face of the planet.
What? North Korea's air defense system is the most antiquated of any one with an AD system worthy of being called a 'system'. Iraq's system is actually better. Unless you think 1950s large-calibre AA guns that had their hey-day in the original Korean war have a chance against modern aircraft.

As for North Korea's army- it's an obsolescent joke. Iraq's is better equipped, and there's no evidence to suggest that the NK army is any better than Iraq.Bunkers are also little more than targets to US PGMs.
Saddam Hussein’s men are largely disloyal, underfed, underpaid, and undergunned as well as ill-trained.
The Republican Guard is none of these things, and if you knew about the Gulf War you'd know that many of the units 'sacrifced' were the absolute dregs of the Iraqi Army. And to assert that the Iraqi army is underfed where North Korea is the country is starving is absolutely beyond comical.
North Korea does have nuclear weapons, yes. But to get to them? How are we supposed to bomb a dirty reactor when doing so would spread radiological debris over an area spreading from Pusan to Tokyo, Beijing to Vladivostok?
Why would you want to bomb the reactor?
Iraq and North Korea are a world apart from a military perspective.
I agree that North Korea is a tougher opponent. But that's hardly because of any inherent superiority of the NK military. It's geographical.
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Post by salm »

seveal people here and loads of people elsewhere state that oil is the main reason why the us wants to invade.

in case the iraki government was exchanged by some other government, wouldn´t the immediately joining the OPEC and the oil would be just as expensive as before?
i think the reason why the us wants to go to war has more to do with gaining political power in that region as well as satisfiing the us population´s wants for revenge on 9/11 and other terrorist attacks committed by some groups of arabs.
saddam is everything the us fears.
(possibly) nukes and other wmd, arabs, non democratic, ties to terrorists (at least that´s what the us government claims and part of the population believes it).
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Post by jegs2 »

Alyeska wrote:I don't care a rats ass about the worlds opinion. I don't think we should not attack because they told us not to. I think we should not attack because its the wrong thing to do. I do think we should deal with North Korea swiftly and effectively and tell Kim to shape up or ship out.
That is a foolish response. He brought up a valid point. If the US steps down at this point, our enemies will be emboldened and heartened. That will lead to further attacks against the interests of the US. One thing our enemies respect, even if they hate it, is the use of force and military strength. They would perceive our backing down as weakness, and they would attempt to exploit that weakness. If your objective is to weaken the US in the eyes of its enemies and prompt further attacks against the interests of the US, then your plan is a good one.
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Post by jegs2 »

See below...
Last edited by jegs2 on 2003-03-09 12:56pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by jegs2 »

Sir Sirius wrote:It is an insult you moron, not an arqument. And your personal beliefs demonstrate that you are not a rationalist, the very same thing you were faulting Spyder for. (<-Insult, not an arqument.)
Then you've proven you're a moron and a troll, congratulations.
The situation with Iraq is nowhere near the same as that with Germany and Japan, they declared a war on you, not the other way around, remember that minor historical fact? Now you are about to invade Iraq, you are the ones starting this war. Also neither Germany nor Japan were/are located in the middle of a rather flamable region of the world and neither were facing the threat of Islamic fundamentalism.
So you are going for the "Let's not attack Saddam, or the crazy Arabs will hate us and attack us" argument. Remember 9/11? They already hate us, sot that argument is invalid.
Jegs2 wrote:Cut out the strawman arguments and answer my counterargument...
Fucking retard! (<-Insult, not an arqument.) It is an insult, not arqument! Read your first post in this thread, You started with the insult.
I did, and I apologized to the poster in question. Again, you prove only that your an insignificant infant with a chip on his shoulder. Grow up, little boy.
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Post by Alyeska »

jegs2 wrote:
Alyeska wrote:I don't care a rats ass about the worlds opinion. I don't think we should not attack because they told us not to. I think we should not attack because its the wrong thing to do. I do think we should deal with North Korea swiftly and effectively and tell Kim to shape up or ship out.
That is a foolish response. He brought up a valid point. If the US steps down at this point, our enemies will be emboldened and heartened. That will lead to further attacks against the interests of the US. One thing our enemies respect, even if they hate it, is the use of force and military strength. They would perceive our backing down as weakness, and they would attempt to exploit that weakness. If your objective is to weaken the US in the eyes of its enemies and prompt further attacks against the interests of the US, then your plan is a good one.
He brings up a valid point you say? That means if the US acts like a pompus ass and threatens to invade a country with no justification and then backs down, it looks bad? NO SHIT SHERLOCK! We have no fucking place threatening to invade Iraq and we deserve a slap in the face. That is a hell of a lot better then threatening to invade Iraq and following through with it. Course if we actually had semi good policy we wouldn't be in this mess.

One more thing. Go fuck yourself. I am against us having even gone down this road in the first place. Its not my fucking responsibility that the US looks like an idiot if it backs down. It looks like an even bigger fucking idiot if it continues down the road it is. Had we conducted national policies above 3rd grader bully tactics then the world wouldn't be looking at us the way it is. Believe it or not but Germany, France, and Russia have to accept military action if the weapon inspectors find something. You know why? Because of the original agreement 10 years ago. This time enforce the rules and tell Saddam he can not throw out the weapon inspectors. Hell, if they don't find anything thats still fine. Saddam will be spending so much time just trying to hide what he has that he won't make any progress. In the mean time the US will further develope its theater deployed ABM defense 747 with a laser in its nose.

Rather then war mongering, I advocate using the brain instead.
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Post by jegs2 »

Alyeska wrote:Rather then war mongering, I advocate using the brain instead.
Then use your brain -- do you think Saddam hasn't had years to hide all of the things the inspectors aren't supposed to find? Can you really be that naive? The only reason he let inspectors back into the country was because of the threat of US force, not the actions of that impotent body (the United against the US Nations). Now, he plays the tune he's supposed to play, because those forces are poised to strike. How is is so hard to put those pieces together?
Last edited by jegs2 on 2003-03-09 01:09pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Axis Kast »

How do you figure?
Hussein provides clear monetary support to Palestinian terror groups, partially enabling them to strike at Israeli targets and kill American citizens. One example is the recent attack on a commuter bus in Haifa that left an American citizen dead.
Bullshit. No proof, constantly denied by every intelligence agency, and pretty bloody unlikely considering that UBL regards Saddam as a socialist heathen who he'd like to see dead.
Iraq’s direct links to al-Qaeda are consistently denied by every intelligence agency. This does not cover the indirect association of Hussein – or transfer of his money, training, and arms – to al-Qaeda via the Palestinian terrorist circle.
Sorry, but you actually have to provide proof of this 'terror infrastructure'. As for Resolution 1441, does that shambles include destroying the Al Samound missiles everyone was so uppity about (cheap kitbases of SA-2 missiles, actually), or providing Blix and the 'doves' more and more ammunition with each report that inspections can work if we let them?
We know that Saddam is in clear possession of the manpower (scientists, technicians, and machinists) necessary to kick-start programs such as those that led to the al-Samoud missile, or worse, a nuclear effort. We know that Hussein, despite prohibitions, now possesses the capability to produce missiles with four times the thrust and far longer range than the above-mentioned weapons. We know that Hussein already uses his vast wealth from oil sales to support the Palestinian Infitada. We know that Hussein possess drones capable of delivering chemical or biological payloads against American or allied targets – as confirmed by Hans Blix. We know that Hussein possesses unexplained equipment – I personally don’t buy his fourteen-year effort to produce 133mm artillery rockets; there’s too much circumstantial evidence against it – critical to the foundation of a new nuclear program. As President Bush argued, where there’s a will and a means – Iraq’s got both at this point -, there’s a way.

Inspections work only because Hussein is now terrified of American invasion. Hans Blix is pulling certain teeth – nothing more. Iraq has prepared for this eventuality for eight years.
What? North Korea's air defense system is the most antiquated of any one with an AD system worthy of being called a 'system'. Iraq's system is actually better. Unless you think 1950s large-calibre AA guns that had their hey-day in the original Korean war have a chance against modern aircraft.

As for North Korea's army- it's an obsolescent joke. Iraq's is better equipped, and there's no evidence to suggest that the NK army is any better than Iraq.Bunkers are also little more than targets to US PGMs.
North Korea’s air-defense system includes sufficient artillery that close ground support will be almost impossible. There’s a point at which sufficient numbers of cannon – no matter how “dumb” the projectiles – can discourage even the coordinated, precision flight of American aircraft. It’s one thing to be able to hit initial targets from above and another to concern yourself with delivering direct assistance to troops fighting in a mountainous theater wherein most of the enemy positions are likely to be found twenty meters or more below the earth’s surface. There are questions whether even a thermobaric nuclear warhead – not that we’d ever deliver one to this region – might have difficulty destroying for certain particular North Korean silos or mountain redoubts.

North Korea’s army is hardly a “joke” compared to Iraq’s. We’re talking about a navy that tangled with the supremely competent South Koreans last summer and came out on top. Iraq’s military is far from better-equipped than the North Korea’s. Kim Jong-Il was fielding over 3,500 main combat tanks as of 2001 as well as 2,500 armored fighting vehicles according to FAS.org. We’re talking about a military prepped for combat around-the-clock and given the entire focus of a single nation – far more than Iraq can boast despite their own somewhat equal intentions.

Fighting on the peninsula will be man-to-man. This is hardly the maneuver warfare of the Iraqi desert. We’re talking about facing prepared positions and the possibility of trench warfare. Not to mention the fact that Kim would take this time to pepper the South Koreans with missiles, could potentially lob a nuclear warhead at the United States or a carrier group lying offshore (and I don’t know how we’d respond considering the close proximity of our allies to fallout), and that Donald Rumsfeld himself estimates an army of 700,000 American troops (we don’t even have that many in our army in total) – not to mention millions of our South Korean allies – would be necessary to pursue these goals.

Also most important is that South Korea refuses to consider even the least aggressive of posturing and yet you expect them to join a war in which their capital would be utterly devastated?

By the way, backing down from Iraq at all would send the wrong kind of message. We’re locking into the struggle with Saddam at this point. Now is the time for containment of Kim Jong-Il, not total war.
The Republican Guard is none of these things, and if you knew about the Gulf War you'd know that many of the units 'sacrificed' were the absolute dregs of the Iraqi Army. And to assert that the Iraqi army is underfed where North Korea is the country is starving is absolutely beyond comical.
The Republican Guard is 5,000 men without the possibility of even minor victory in Iraq. And notice that I said “largely” before discussing the capabilities of the average Iraqi soldier.

North Korea’s troops are the focus of their nation’s efforts. They eat better for sure than do their Iraqi counterparts.
I agree that North Korea is a tougher opponent. But that's hardly because of any inherent superiority of the NK military. It's geographical.
Incorrect. They are a far “tougher opponent” on multiple levels and therefore cannot be handled militarily.
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Post by Alyeska »

jegs2 wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Rather then war mongering, I advocate using the brain instead.
Then use your brain -- do you think Saddam hasn't had years to hide all of the things the inspectors aren't supposed to find? Can you really be that naive? The only reason he let inspectors back into the country was because of the threat of US force, not the actions of that impotent body (the United against the US Nations). Now, he plays the tune he's supposed to play, because those forces are poised to strike. How is is so hard to put those pieces together?
And you know what? I could care less that he has such weapons. He can't do shit with them. Saddam likes where he is. If he were to ever use them he would find out what it was like to have 500lb smart bombs droped down his chimney. He isn't suicidal. He wants to keep what he has. Not only does that mean he lets inspectors into his country, it also means he won't ever use his weapons unless backed into a corner. Of course the US is backing him into a corner. Brilliant strategy. :roll:
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."

"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
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