Gun question - What should I get?

[weemadando]

*sigh*

*orders Ando siezed and thrown into the torture chambers under Passchendale*

The Littleton fucktards got their hands on a SEMI-AUTOMATIC
weapon, not a full automatic weapon, which is the definition of a SMG.

A semi-auto gun with a legally available conversion kit?

But as you said, you are allowed to own one but not the other. Who writes these fucking laws?

Did I mention that they still managed to buy these fucking things? Not to mention over the counter ammo.

[MKSheppard]

Did I mention that they still managed to buy these fucking things? Not to mention over the counter ammo.

I believe they bought them privately, from a private individual, not
from a gun store. And ammo isn't regulated, unless you're unlucky
enough to live in a democrat-run area.

[Perinquus]

And can I at this point bring up the fact that America has 11,000 firearms deaths a year. While Canada, Britain, Germany and Australia combined have under 2000? You really have to ask questions.

Yeah, I do. Like what has been the effect on crime since Britain and Australia enacted total handgun bans, and restrictions on firearms ownership in general?

Answer: a rising violent crime rate.

In Britain:
A report has just been published by the Centre for Defence Studies in London, which shows that criminal use of handguns increased by 40% in the two years immediately after the 1997 ban on handguns. In the years 1997-1998, 2,648 crimes involving handguns were reported. In 1999-2000, that number had increased to 3,685. This is not far off the peak of seven years previous, which reported 4,273 such offences.

The rates of muggings and assaults are now higher than in the U.S.

In Australia:
Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2%. Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6%. Australia-wide, armed-robberies are up 44%. (yes, FORTY-FOUR PERCENT.) In the state of Victoria, homicides-with-firearms are up 300%! The steady decrease in homicides-with-firearms that occurred during the previous 25 years became an increase in the last 12 months. The steady decrease in armed-robbery-with-firearms that occurred during the previous 25 years became an increase in the last 12 months. There has been a dramatic increase in breakins-and-assaults-of-the-elderly.

Then of course, there are countries like Switzerland and Israel with even higher rates of civilian gun ownership than the U.S., but very low rates of crime.

The situation is just a little more complicated than GUNS = HOMICIDES.

[Beowulf]

Perhaps if people didn't have firearms in their homes, the burglars wouldn't feel the need to carry firearms with them. IMHO its a vicious circle and one that is only going to get worse.

I wonder why home invasion burglaries are on the rise in Britain? Maybe it's because the crooks know they aren't going to get injured during it? You will get arrested and thrown into jail if you defend yourself in England. That is a fact. Now, does this make any sense at all?

[weemadando]

And can I at this point bring up the fact that America has 11,000 firearms deaths a year. While Canada, Britain, Germany and Australia combined have under 2000? You really have to ask questions.

Yeah, I do. Like what has been the effect on crime since Britain and Australia enacted total handgun bans, and restrictions on firearms ownership in general?

Answer: a rising violent crime rate.

In Britain:
A report has just been published by the Centre for Defence Studies in London, which shows that criminal use of handguns increased by 40% in the two years immediately after the 1997 ban on handguns. In the years 1997-1998, 2,648 crimes involving handguns were reported. In 1999-2000, that number had increased to 3,685. This is not far off the peak of seven years previous, which reported 4,273 such offences.

The rates of muggings and assaults are now higher than in the U.S.

In Australia:
Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2%. Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6%. Australia-wide, armed-robberies are up 44%. (yes, FORTY-FOUR PERCENT.) In the state of Victoria, homicides-with-firearms are up 300%! The steady decrease in homicides-with-firearms that occurred during the previous 25 years became an increase in the last 12 months. The steady decrease in armed-robbery-with-firearms that occurred during the previous 25 years became an increase in the last 12 months. There has been a dramatic increase in breakins-and-assaults-of-the-elderly.

Then of course, there are countries like Switzerland and Israel with even higher rates of civilian gun ownership than the U.S., but very low rates of crime.

The situation is just a little more complicated than GUNS = HOMICIDES.

When did I say that guns = homicides?

I pointed out the fact that the amount of gun related deaths in the US is MASSIVELY disproportionate to population, surely an indicator of something being rotten in the state of Denmark so to speak.

[Perinquus]

Perhaps if people didn't have firearms in their homes, the burglars wouldn't feel the need to carry firearms with them. IMHO its a vicious circle and one that is only going to get worse.

Well that's just it. It's your opinion. And it's not borne out by the facts. You've got it ass backwards. In the U.S. burglars don't tend to carry guns. They avoid breaking into homes while the owners are present because they don't want to get shot! That's why only 13% of U.S. burglaries are home-invasion type burlaries where the victims are at home. And of that 13%, a significant percentage are inadvertant - the crook thinks he's breaking into an empty house, and discovers once inside that he's wrong, and the homeowners are present.

In Britain, on the other hand, over 50% of burglaries are home invasions. The crooks have no fear of being shot, and don't need to be as careful.

I feel sorry for people who think that they have to carry a handgun to be safe on the streets, but how many of them ever have to actually use it? And when they do use it - was it neccessary? Or where they shooting a kid running from a 7/11 with an unpaid for twinkie?

You know what happens if you shoot a shoplifter for running away with a twinkie? You go to jail for murder. Of course, those citizens who get concealed weapons permits learn all about the legality of using it in self defense - when a shooting is and is not justified, etc. - during the mandatory safety training they have to take to get one. This is why incidents such as you describe are pretty much unheard of, and a great deal less than one percent of permits issued have to be revoked.

It's clear you're about as knowledgeable on this subject as most hoplophobes - not very.

[Perinquus]

When did I say that guns = homicides?

I pointed out the fact that the amount of gun related deaths in the US is MASSIVELY disproportionate to population, surely an indicator of something being rotten in the state of Denmark so to speak.

It's pretty clear that the inference you wish us to draw is that the U.S. has such a rate of homicides because we have so many firearms. It's rather disingenuous of you to pretend otherwise. But the fact that other countries with an even higher per capita rate of firearm ownership have lower rates is a pretty strong indicator that the presence of firearms is not the only factor at work in this matter.

[Trytostaydead]

A cop once told my dad, "If you're ever robbed.. shoot the motherfucker. If he managed to run out of the house, shoot him and drag him back in before the cops arrive."

[weemadando]

When did I say that guns = homicides?

I pointed out the fact that the amount of gun related deaths in the US is MASSIVELY disproportionate to population, surely an indicator of something being rotten in the state of Denmark so to speak.

It's pretty clear that the inference you wish us to draw is that the U.S. has such a rate of homicides because we have so many firearms. It's rather disingenuous of you to pretend otherwise. But the fact that other countries with an even higher per capita rate of firearm ownership have lower rates is a pretty strong indicator that the presence of firearms is not the only factor at work in this matter.

Actually, even before Australias gun reforms we still had a much lower per capita rate of gun-related deaths. Look at Canada, 30 million people roughly, 7 million guns. 350+ deaths a year.

Take a long hard look.

[Trytostaydead]

I wonder what the statistics of WHY the people got shot? Burglaries? Homicidal rage? Gang? Drugs?

Here in Southern California, we have A LOT of gang activity, especially coming south from the border.

[Perinquus]

A cop once told my dad, "If you're ever robbed.. shoot the motherfucker. If he managed to run out of the house, shoot him and drag him back in before the cops arrive."

If you follow that advice you will wind up in prison. Forensics today is very sophisticated. They have tools, chemical reagents, etc. that will find out what you did. A trail of clothing fibers on the carpet, for example, that you can't see with the naked eye, but they can detect. The angle of entry of the bullet will tell them how the crook was oriented to you when you shot him. And when it is discovered that you have lied to the investigators, and tampered with evidence, your credibility with the police, the judge, the jury will be gonzo!

Congratulations. You just turned what might have been a genuinely justified shooting into what looks like murder with intent. Hope you like your cellmate.

That cop was an idiot. He was also guilty of a crime called "suborning perjury". In most states that's a felony. Take it from another cop (me); if you do that, you are going to be very sorry.

[Trytostaydead]

A cop once told my dad, "If you're ever robbed.. shoot the motherfucker. If he managed to run out of the house, shoot him and drag him back in before the cops arrive."

If you follow that advice you will wind up in prison. Forensics today is very sophisticated. They have tools, chemical reagents, etc. that will find out what you did. A trail of clothing fibers on the carpet, for example, that you can't see with the naked eye, but they can detect. The angle of entry of the bullet will tell them how the crook was oriented to you when you shot him. And when it is discovered that you have lied to the investigators, and tampered with evidence, your credibility with the police, the judge, the jury will be gonzo!

Congratulations. You just turned what might have been a genuinely justified shooting into what looks like murder with intent. Hope you like your cellmate.

That cop was an idiot. He was also guilty of a crime called "suborning perjury". In most states that's a felony. Take it from another cop (me); if you do that, you are going to be very sorry.

Dammit! There goes my idea of inviting of my ex-roommate here.. son of a bitch, lol

[Sr.mal]

Funny I seem to recall exaclty 2 years 6 months and 4 days ago my house was broken into. My entire family was at home and the burgler had a knife. About 2 minutes later the police showed up and arrested the guy. What I had done was to hold himn at gun point. He dropped the knife got on his knees with his hands behind his head. He is now serveing a 20 year sentence. Sometimes the threat of a K98 is enough to force at situation to end peacefully. Moral of the story, if my familiy did not own guns you would not be reading these words as I would have been stabbed to death. So STFU. If you like guns, cool, if not Shut the Fuck UP!

[Perinquus]

Actually, even before Australias gun reforms we still had a much lower per capita rate of gun-related deaths. Look at Canada, 30 million people roughly, 7 million guns. 350+ deaths a year.

Take a long hard look.

I have. Longer and harder than you. Does Canada or Australia have our gang problem? Do you have drugs infiltrated into your inner cities as badly as we do? Do you have the large, disaffected minority populations we do?

You are trying to reduce this to a simplified "America has more guns so America has more crime", and you are conveniently ignoring all the evidence I am giving you to show that it just ain't that simple.

[Trytostaydead]

I wonder though, let's say you're getting robbed in your home and you pull out your gun. He fires a shot and misses and you guys exchange some fire and he runs out and you chase him out on to the street and you nail the son of a bitch. Is that still murder then?

[Perinquus]

I wonder though, let's say you're getting robbed in your home and you pull out your gun. He fires a shot and misses and you guys exchange some fire and he runs out and you chase him out on to the street and you nail the son of a bitch. Is that still murder then?

Yes. If he breaks off the fight and runs away, you are now out of danger. If you then pursue him, in the eyes of the law you have just become the aggressor. This means he can shoot you dead and get away with it. Yes, I know that's fucked up, since he committed a crime to invade your home in the first place, but that's the law.

And as an aside, why would you want to chase him after he ran off? You just survived a gunfight; if you get into another one, you might not be so lucky the second time.

[Trytostaydead]

I wonder though, let's say you're getting robbed in your home and you pull out your gun. He fires a shot and misses and you guys exchange some fire and he runs out and you chase him out on to the street and you nail the son of a bitch. Is that still murder then?

Yes. If he breaks off the fight and runs away, you are now out of danger. If you then pursue him, in the eyes of the law you have just become the aggressor. This means he can shoot you dead and get away with it. Yes, I know that's fucked up, since he committed a crime to invade your home in the first place, but that's the law.

And as an aside, why would you want to chase him after he ran off? You just survived a gunfight; if you get into another one, you might not be so lucky the second time.

...because someone took a shot at me and knows where I sleep?

[Darth Wong]

I wonder though, let's say you're getting robbed in your home and you pull out your gun. He fires a shot and misses and you guys exchange some fire and he runs out and you chase him out on to the street and you nail the son of a bitch. Is that still murder then?

A bullet which enters a person's body through his back is never going to be classified as self-defense.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

http://www.geocities.com/spankythedo/thisstupid.txt

Don't fucking steal Utsanomiko's pictures, dink.

Especially when they're on my account.

[weemadando]

I have. Longer and harder than you. Does Canada or Australia have our gang problem? Do you have drugs infiltrated into your inner cities as badly as we do. Do you have the large, disaffected minority populations we do?

You are trying to reduce this to a simplified "America has more guns so America has more crime", and you are conveniently ignoring all the evidence I am giving you to show that it just ain't that simple.

You would appear to be turning this into a "blame the black man" debate.

We have a significant gang and drug problem in Australia. Hell a few years ago a gang decided to shoot the crap out of a police station. Bikie gangs here are major players, as are many of the asian gangs that have come into the "new markets". Gangs and drugs are very very serious problems here. But still, we have a far lower amount of firearms related deaths per capita.

Large disaffected minority populations?

---------------- Male Female Total
Total persons 9,362,021 9,610,329 18,972,350
Born overseas 2,031,089 2,074,355 4,105,444

Thats those that are BORN overseas, not counting our "minorities" born within Australia. Looks like we have MUCH larger "minority" populations.

I'm not saying that "more guns = more crime", not once have I. Many nations have just as high a rate of gun ownership and far less gun crime than the US.

In Australia, in 1995 BEFORE the firearms reforms were put in place, from a population of rougly 17,000,000 we had 480 firearms related deaths, which, by an order of magnitude were lead by suicides.

In Canada, from a population of 30,000,000 with 7,000,000 fire arms, roughly 1200 people are killed every year in Canada from firearms.

AMERICA HOWEVER, with a population of 250,000,000... 11,000. Someone want to try and point out the disparity there? It shouldn't be that hard.

As for the "self defense matter" - In 1997 there were 15,690 homicides, of which 8,503 were committed with handguns. Only 193 (2.3 percent) handgun homicides were classified as justifiable homicides. (FBI Supplementary Homicide Report data, 1997) -from http://www.kqed.org/w/baywindow/guns/stats.html

[Darth Wong]

In Canada, from a population of 30,000,000 with 7,000,000 fire arms, roughly 1200 people are killed every year in Canada from firearms.

AMERICA HOWEVER, with a population of 250,000,000... 11,000. Someone want to try and point out the disparity there? It shouldn't be that hard.

You accidentally added an extra zero for the Canadian figure; it's more like 120-160. Total homicides including knives and fists and every other technique are around 500.

[Beowulf]

http://www.geocities.com/spankythedo/thisstupid.txt

Don't fucking steal Utsanomiko's pictures, dink.

Especially when they're on my account.

But the image seemed so approriate. Image gone.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

No, that's not what I fucking meant.

You can't fucking use that picture at all, as Utsanomiko made it for his own use only.

Delete the picture from your account and from the thread.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

I'm not a rifle expert, but my father has a small arsenal (for hunting). I think his favorite is something like:

http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/win73C.htm

I most likely have the model year wrong. I'm not sure if his love of the gun has to do with performance, he's also a western movie freak.

Umm that site's bad Java completely trashes Mozilla. Fucking goddamn "fphover" mouseover scripts!

[Perinquus]

You would appear to be turning this into a "blame the black man" debate.

Strawman Alert!

As it happens, the gangs are all integrating these days. The Vice Lords and Black Gangter Disciples are no longer all black. Even the Latin Kings are not all Latin. I resent your attempt to paint me as some sort of racist. Guess this is crossing into Ad Hominem territory as well.

However, I am not about to ignore facts either, like the state of our inner cities here, or the larger percentage of the African American community (as compared to whites) that is engaging in crimes and gang activity.

In Australia, in 1995 BEFORE the firearms reforms were put in place, from a population of rougly 17,000,000 we had 480 firearms related deaths, which, by an order of magnitude were lead by suicides.

In Canada, from a population of 30,000,000 with 7,000,000 fire arms, roughly 1200 people are killed every year in Canada from firearms.

AMERICA HOWEVER, with a population of 250,000,000... 11,000. Someone want to try and point out the disparity there? It shouldn't be that hard.

You know what else we have? Higher rates of stabbing murders. Higher rates of bludgeoning murders. Higher rates of strangulation murders. Our murder rate is higher across the board. I suppose your going to imply that firearms are somehow responsible for that as well?

As for the "self defense matter" - In 1997 there were 15,690 homicides, of which 8,503 were committed with handguns. Only 193 (2.3 percent) handgun homicides were classified as justifiable homicides. (FBI Supplementary Homicide Report data, 1997) -from http://www.kqed.org/w/baywindow/guns/stats.html

The majority of self defense uses of a firearm do not require actually firing the gun. In the majority of cases, it's usually enough to display the weapon and it drives the attacker off.

And it's interesting that you got that statistic from a pro gun control site. What it doesn't tell you is that those are only cases where the defendant was charged with a crime, and it was later determined in court that the homicide was justifiable. In the vast majority of cases, the evidence is clear enough that the detectives investigating the scene determine themselves that the citizen was justified, and no charges are ever brought - therefore it is never reported to the FBI as a crime. This is the case in the majority of justifiable shootings.

This is a classic case of statistics being used to mislead.