Mike Wong's Middle East Essay

[Next of Kin]

I've heard the term 'resistance bomber' thrown out there but it sounds to glorified for someone who targets innocent civies.

[Jim Raynor]

You still don't get it, do you? Homicide bomber is an inaccurate term. Timothy McVeigh was a homicide bomber. A guy who leaves a bomb in his car and then walks off before it blows people up is a homicide bomber. Anyone with a bomb can be a homicide bomber. The "bomber" part of "suicide bomber" already implys that the guy is out to kill/injure people or destroy things. Homicide bomber is not only inaccurate, it's also redundant.

[Darik Sdair]

You still don't get it, do you? Homicide bomber is an inaccurate term. Timothy McVeigh was a homicide bomber. A guy who leaves a bomb in his car and then walks off before it blows people up is a homicide bomber. Anyone with a bomb can be a homicide bomber. The "bomber" part of "suicide bomber" already implys that the guy is out to kill/injure people or destroy things. Homicide bomber is not only inaccurate, it's also redundant.

I believe the term Homocide Bomber originated with president Bush, who felt the Suicide Bomber term was inappropriate. Here's what I think his logic was - accurate or not, I can see where he's coming from:

Homicide Bomber - Palestinian bomber who targets civilians (like American students having lunch at their college for example). Whether or not the bomber is commits suicide in the process is immaterial to the term.

Suicide Bomber - think "Russian soldiers who throw themselves under Nazi tanks with an antitank mine on their back." Or, for that matter "Japanese kamikaze pilot ramming his Zero into a U.S. aircraft carrier."

The latter term can describe legitimate military activity in times of desperation. The former term describes people who are deliberately murdering civilians.

[Jim Raynor]

You still don't get it, do you? Homicide bomber is an inaccurate term. Timothy McVeigh was a homicide bomber. A guy who leaves a bomb in his car and then walks off before it blows people up is a homicide bomber. Anyone with a bomb can be a homicide bomber. The "bomber" part of "suicide bomber" already implys that the guy is out to kill/injure people or destroy things. Homicide bomber is not only inaccurate, it's also redundant.

I believe the term Homocide Bomber originated with president Bush, who felt the Suicide Bomber term was inappropriate. Here's what I think his logic was - accurate or not, I can see where he's coming from:

Homicide Bomber - Palestinian bomber who targets civilians (like American students having lunch at their college for example). Whether or not the bomber is commits suicide in the process is immaterial to the term.

Suicide Bomber - think "Russian soldiers who throw themselves under Nazi tanks with an antitank mine on their back." Or, for that matter "Japanese kamikaze pilot ramming his Zero into a U.S. aircraft carrier."

The latter term can describe legitimate military activity in times of desperation. The former term describes people who are deliberately murdering civilians.

The words "suicide bomber" don't have any meaning that would restrict their usage to legitamate military action. And homicide bomber does not automatically mean a Palestinian terrorist. Like I said before, "bomber" already means that the guy is out to kill or destroy, and homicide bomber is inaccurate, redundant, and complete propaganda. If it did originate from Bush, I'm not surprised since he's biased in favor of Israel.

[Crown]

First, I will not be getting involved in this debate too much, if you want to read my opinions on the matter go to the Israel vs Palestine thread on the second last page in Off Topic forum. Having said that;

Mike Wong then claims That Israel's defensive wars are not defensive but offensive. He has not backed this up with any evidence.

Well here is some, Here is a quote from Moshe Dayan, Israel's celebrated Defence Minister of the 1967 War;

'At least 80% of the skirmishes there [prior to the War] started by us sending a tractor to plough inside the demilitarised zone, knowing in advance the Syrians would start shooting. If they did not, we would tell the tractor to go on until the Syrians got nervous and did start shooting. Then we would use cannons and later even air force.' Dayan added that the decision to occupy the Golan was taken by PM Levi Eshkol, among other reasons, under pressure of a delegation from the Kibbutzim [...], whose true motivation was the desire for more land" (Yedioth Achronot, 17.12.1999).

The occupied Golan has formally been annexed, settled by Israelis, and, contrary to international legislation, Israel has been extensively exploiting its nature resources: "Mey Eden", an Israeli-based mineral water producer, is pumping in the occupied Golan. Typically, even the Yizchak Rabin Monument in Tel-Aviv is made of black basalt from the Syrian Heights.

Hmmmm,

Who shot and targeted civilian instalations first? Why that would be an Israeli setteler...

On February 25, 1994, Baruch Goldstein, an American doctor from Brooklyn, entered the Hebron Mosque and gunned down 29 Muslims who were praying.

Goldstein died during this suicide act of terrorism. But he was not forgotten. Goldstein is buried at the 7,000-strong Israeli settlement of Kiryat Arba. His grave is a popular Israeli shrine in an idyllic, tree-lined park also dedicated to another Israeli terrorist and former New Yorker, Meir Kahane. Like Goldstein, Kahane held dual Israeli citizenship.

One can argue that Goldstein, who expected to die in the attack, is the region’s first suicide terrorist. It was Goldstein’s attack that weeks later provoked the first instance of a Hamas suicide bomb attack. Seven Israelis were killed at Afula, an Israeli village built on a former Palestinian village.

Goldstein’s first suicide terrorist attack isn’t the only one by an Israeli.

We just don’t read about them that much.

Last April, two Israeli settlers rigged a truck filled with propane, gas, metal bits and nails intended to explode near the playground of an Arab girls school. It was set to go off as the children played, but the bombers were caught.

Months earlier, another bomb placed at an Arab school playground did go off, seriously injuring seven Arab children.

Discussion about Israeli settlers and settlements usually revolves around the issue of impeding peace. Few have the courage to call them what they are, terrorists who provoked the first Palestinian suicide bombing.

The settlers teach their children hatred and how to use weapons. Nearly all the settlers carry weapons, too, provoking violence in response.

Goldstein and Kahane are only two of nearly 200,000 Israelis living in settlements built on confiscated Palestinian land.

Yep people, Palestinian terrorist orginisation, and I do consider them as terrorists when they target civilians, only began targetting civilians after similar actions from Israeli citizens. How many of us even knew of this?

For crying out loud, if you intend to debate on this topic do some research other than CNN.

[EmperorSolo51]

Well here is some, Here is a quote from Moshe Dayan, Israel's celebrated Defence Minister of the 1967 War;

'At least 80% of the skirmishes there [prior to the War] started by us sending a tractor to plough inside the demilitarised zone, knowing in advance the Syrians would start shooting. If they did not, we would tell the tractor to go on until the Syrians got nervous and did start shooting. Then we would use cannons and later even air force.' Dayan added that the decision to occupy the Golan was taken by PM Levi Eshkol, among other reasons, under pressure of a delegation from the Kibbutzim [...], whose true motivation was the desire for more land" (Yedioth Achronot, 17.12.1999).

The occupied Golan has formally been annexed, settled by Israelis, and, contrary to international legislation, Israel has been extensively exploiting its nature resources: "Mey Eden", an Israeli-based mineral water producer, is pumping in the occupied Golan. Typically, even the Yizchak Rabin Monument in Tel-Aviv is made of black basalt from the Syrian Heights.

Hmmmm,

Who shot and targeted civilian instalations first? Why that would be an Israeli setteler...

First off, can I have a link to the the source? 2nd, how could they simply move a tractor thorough minefields that blocked off many roads in northen Israel? Also what's wrong with that (I am highly skeptical of where that quote came from) quote is that Israeli civilians were regulary sniped by Syrian troops from hieghts and Arafat's Fatah organization used the hieghts for cross border raids

On February 25, 1994, Baruch Goldstein, an American doctor from Brooklyn, entered the Hebron Mosque and gunned down 29 Muslims who were praying.

Goldstein died during this suicide act of terrorism. But he was not forgotten. Goldstein is buried at the 7,000-strong Israeli settlement of Kiryat Arba. His grave is a popular Israeli shrine in an idyllic, tree-lined park also dedicated to another Israeli terrorist and former New Yorker, Meir Kahane. Like Goldstein, Kahane held dual Israeli citizenship.

One can argue that Goldstein, who expected to die in the attack, is the region’s first suicide terrorist. It was Goldstein’s attack that weeks later provoked the first instance of a Hamas suicide bomb attack. Seven Israelis were killed at Afula, an Israeli village built on a former Palestinian village.

Goldstein’s first suicide terrorist attack isn’t the only one by an Israeli.

We just don’t read about them that much.

Last April, two Israeli settlers rigged a truck filled with propane, gas, metal bits and nails intended to explode near the playground of an Arab girls school. It was set to go off as the children played, but the bombers were caught.

Months earlier, another bomb placed at an Arab school playground did go off, seriously injuring seven Arab children.

Discussion about Israeli settlers and settlements usually revolves around the issue of impeding peace. Few have the courage to call them what they are, terrorists who provoked the first Palestinian suicide bombing.

The settlers teach their children hatred and how to use weapons. Nearly all the settlers carry weapons, too, provoking violence in response.

Goldstein and Kahane are only two of nearly 200,000 Israelis living in settlements built on confiscated Palestinian land.

Yep people, Palestinian terrorist orginisation, and I do consider them as terrorists when they target civilians, only began targetting civilians after similar actions from Israeli citizens. How many of us even knew of this?

For crying out loud, if you intend to debate on this topic do some research other than CNN.

First, Where does that quote come from. Secondly I do not watch CNN, I deplore it. I will watch other news media and print media. But not CNN. BTW I have 4-5 book currently that I own or have barrowed from my local library on the subject.

[Wicked Pilot]

USAF, didn;t I provide detail on that particular attack in a pervious thread regarding the legitmacey of isreal as a nation? didn't I even tell you the ships name and the year it occured in? So why are you acting like i HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF THIS, WHEN I AM THE ONE WHO TOLD YOU IN THE FIRST PLACE!!

I was letting the board know. Most Americans have never heard of the U.S.S. Liberty or what happened to it. People don't like to discuss it because they rather not face the fact that Israel is an aggressive military state.

I think that Isreal did it on purpose

Very few right-wingers are so honest. I'm glad to see on this particular issue that you are. Yet you still defended the attack saying:

I think that its understandable what they did. They were in a fight to just to survive. You have to appreciate that.

Funny, people who defend the Palestenians say the same thing.

[Azeron]

Funny, people who defend the Palestenians say the same thing.

Yes there are people that say that about palestinians, but they are anti-semites.

IF the jews wanted to do to palestinians, what the palestinians have been doing to the jews, there would simply be no palestinians left by now

[The Yosemite Bear]

You still don't get it, do you? Homicide bomber is an inaccurate term. Timothy McVeigh was a homicide bomber. A guy who leaves a bomb in his car and then walks off before it blows people up is a homicide bomber. Anyone with a bomb can be a homicide bomber. The "bomber" part of "suicide bomber" already implys that the guy is out to kill/injure people or destroy things. Homicide bomber is not only inaccurate, it's also redundant.

I believe the term Homocide Bomber originated with president Bush, who felt the Suicide Bomber term was inappropriate. Here's what I think his logic was - accurate or not, I can see where he's coming from:

Homicide Bomber - Palestinian bomber who targets civilians (like American students having lunch at their college for example). Whether or not the bomber is commits suicide in the process is immaterial to the term.

Suicide Bomber - think "Russian soldiers who throw themselves under Nazi tanks with an antitank mine on their back." Or, for that matter "Japanese kamikaze pilot ramming his Zero into a U.S. aircraft carrier."

The latter term can describe legitimate military activity in times of desperation. The former term describes people who are deliberately murdering civilians.

The words "suicide bomber" don't have any meaning that would restrict their usage to legitamate military action. And homicide bomber does not automatically mean a Palestinian terrorist. Like I said before, "bomber" already means that the guy is out to kill or destroy, and homicide bomber is inaccurate, redundant, and complete propaganda. If it did originate from Bush, I'm not surprised since he's biased in favor of Israel.

After all Leroy Moody of the Weathermen and Dr. Death in Northern Ireland didn't intend to blow up their own homes, and them selves while making their weapons of terror.

[Raptor 597]

USAF, didn;t I provide detail on that particular attack in a pervious thread regarding the legitmacey of isreal as a nation? didn't I even tell you the ships name and the year it occured in? So why are you acting like i HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF THIS, WHEN I AM THE ONE WHO TOLD YOU IN THE FIRST PLACE!!

I was letting the board know. Most Americans have never heard of the U.S.S. Liberty or what happened to it. People don't like to discuss it because they rather not face the fact that Israel is an aggressive military state.

I think that Isreal did it on purpose

Very few right-wingers are so honest. I'm glad to see on this particular issue that you are. Yet you still defended the attack saying:

I think that its understandable what they did. They were in a fight to just to survive. You have to appreciate that.

Funny, people who defend the Palestenians say the same thing.

Yeah, right-wingers are fucked up these days either, your blind of the situtation or a patholigicial liar or just plain retaired.

[beyond hope]

hmmm.... if you're automatically an anti-semite when you criticize Israel's conduct, doesn't that make Israel a race-based state?

Just a thought....

[Azeron]

There are many Christian and Muslim citizens of Isreal. So it can't be raced bait. Besides Judaism is a religion, not a race.

Criticizing and moral equivilience between Nazi Germany or when palesitinians murder bomb cafe's and pizza parlors is antisemitic.



We have already establisheed that isreal gained the west bank legitimately through a war of self defense. If the palesitinians don't like thier new government, they can pack up and leave its so horrible.

[Mr Bean]

Besides Judaism is a religion, not a race.

A religion where you have to be a memeber of a particular race or married to one, Thats just Symantic Aerzon

The Religion is based on race

[Durandal]

Criticizing the actions of the Israeli government doesn't make Mike Wong or anyone else an anti-semite. I'm not sure where people get this idea from; I guess it's just a convenient defense for the United States' military support of Israel. "We have to support Israel, no matter what they do, because if we don't, we're anti-semites!"

[Azeron]

Obviously you haven't met any Black jews from Africa or asian jews. I think thats a pretty racist statement. In case you didn't know there is a conversion ritual in Judaism, and there are people that convert every year. My firends firend converted to judaism when he married his jewish gf.

I beleive the question in the talmund you have to anser affirmatively to convert to judaisn is "Are you prepared to become amoung the hated people of the world?"

[beyond hope]

from Azeron:

Yes there are people that say that about palestinians, but they are anti-semites.

Straight from the horse's mouth: express any belief that the Palestinians have a legitimate gripe and you are an anti-semite. But then you have this:

There are many Christian and Muslim citizens of Isreal. So it can't be raced bait. Besides Judaism is a religion, not a race.

Criticizing and moral equivilience between Nazi Germany or when palesitinians murder bomb cafe's and pizza parlors is antisemitic.

So Azeron can't even decide whether you're an anti-semite or not for criticizing Israel. I can see how he got the "Village Idiot" label. By the way, the dictionary offers this definition of what a "Semite" is:

n.
A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.

So, what Azeron means to say is that we're anti-Israel. He's not honest enough to say that though, because that means having to defend Israel's aggressive acts and he doesn't want to do that. So, he's trying to hide by calling any criticism of Israel "anti-semitic" and implying that any critic of Israel must be a bigot and that's their only motive in this debate. For shame: are you really so scared to try and defend Israel without the "you're a bigot!" bullshit?

[Antediluvian]

Saying you're anti-Semitic for criticizing Israel's actions toward Palestinians, another Semitic group, is like your saying you're anti-Caucasian because you criticize what one group of Caucasians is doing toward another group of Caucasians.

Does Azeron even bother to use logic?

[Azeron]

So, what Azeron means to say is that we're anti-Israel. He's not honest enough to say that though, because that means having to defend Israel's aggressive acts and he doesn't want to do that. So, he's trying to hide by calling any criticism of Israel "anti-semitic" and implying that any critic of Israel must be a bigot and that's their only motive in this debate. For shame: are you really so scared to try and defend Israel without the "you're a bigot!" bullshit?

The Modern use of the word anti-semitic is used exculsively to refer to the jewish plgiht. Yes the word did orignially apply to semites, but now its used to refer to the jews. You can cry all you want about it, but words and thier meanings change over time, you idiot.

http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictiona ... ti-Semitic
Main Entry: an·ti-Sem·i·tism
Pronunciation: "an-ti-'se-m&-"ti-z&m, "an-"tI-
Function: noun
Date: 1882
: hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group

I guess its you that doesn;t know the meaning of logic.

If you hurl virtolic hatred at teh jewish state, yes you are an antisemite, even if it isn't really a jewish state.

You aren;t criitizing isreal, you are justifiing the genocide of the jewish people. PERIOD. there is no reational to argument.


You want to talk about occuppied lands, lets talk about Mecca and Medina. Those are jewish cities, founded by jews. Muhmmad ethnically clensed them of jews and took them for his own. Perhaps the jews should be given back those "occupied terroritories".

[Si tacet]

On Baruch Goldstein:
When Baruch Goldstein murdered 29 Muslims at prayer several years ago, he was condemned across the political spectrum in Israel, with only a tiny number of zealots approving of his suicidal act. Condemnations came from the leaders of all parties, from Jews worldwide and from arab nations around the world. No-one pointed out that this killing (not that I am in any way condoning or extenuating his actions) occured on the day that the Arab settlers in Hebron had threatened to massacre the Jews; no mention of the fact that for months leading up to the attack the Jewish community in Hebron had been terrorised and attacked repeatedly. Everyone (almost!) accepted that this was a disgusting terrorist act and was totally unjustified and unacceptable.
However, when a Palestinian goes and blows up a teenage disco, or a family meal on a festival (BTW, most of the people killed in the Pesach Massacre were European families who had settled in their retirement in Israel, and whose families were in some cases just visiting Israel), there is a wall of silence from the Arab world. Oh, wait- Saddam Hussein will send $10,000 to the family, the PA will issue a statement saying that it "regrets" the atrocity, the BBC will NEVER call it terrorism, and people in the Disputed Terratories will celebrate.
You'll note that in 20 months of violence the PA never once called for an end to suicide bombings. Although their children's daytime programmes open with songs like "Next time I walk thourgh Jeruslaem it will be as a suicide bomber", Arafat never once said "Guys, give it a rest".
Ah, but you say that Israeli actions aggrieve the PAlestinians to commit terrorist acts. Let's cast our minds back to 2001- when Israel, lead by the "war-criminal" Sharon declared a TWO WEEK UNCONDITIONAL CEASEFIRE. During that time there were scores of attacks, culminating in the bombing of a disco. Gosh- they really asked for that!

As for the painting of Israel as a apartied state, I'd just like to make a few random comments.
1/ You can only attack Israel from one direction. You can't simaltaneously say "Israel is occupying the West Bank. they should give it back" AND "Israel shoul dgive full citizenship to people in the West Bank".
If Israel were to give Palestinians full citizenship, it would mean the territories had been annexed. No Israeli government has been prepared to take that step. Instead, through negotiations, Israel agreed to give the Palestinians increasing authority over their own affairs. It is likely that a final settlement will allow most Palestinians to become citizens of their own state.
2/ So Israel is rabidly racist. In which case why, out of the 10% of Israel that is Arab, during the 1967, 1973 and 1982 wars, were there no any acts of sabotage or disloyalty? Why did the mayor of a Palestinian village, Zuhir Hamdan, publicly state that his villagers preferred to live, not under Arafat, but Israel? (He was gunned down by PA goons soon after, but luckily survived)
3/ MW also comments "Did you know that ethnic Palestinians in Israel must have special license plates on their cars so that they can be easily identified by police forces from a distance?" Umm- sorry to say, but ALL inhabitants of the West Bank have yellow license plates- Jews, muslims, druze, christians.
4/If the Israelis genuinely wanted to kill all the Palestinians, don't you think that they could do a slightly better job of it. Look at Jenin- 23 Israeli casualties, 56 Palestinian casualties. Upward of 500 Palestinians arrested. Not exactly the stuff a 10-day massare is made of...
5/ So the Palestinains are victims of the Israelis. Really? Why are "collabarators"- i.e. the people who co-operate with the Israelis- strung up? Why did two Israeli off-duty soldiers take a wrong turn and run into (NOT literally) a Palestinian mob- who then proceeded to rip them limb from limb (literally), and hold up their blood-soaked entrails as trophies?
6/ If Israel hates the Palestinians, why is it that the Arabs who stayed in Israel in 1948 have jobs, high schools (1 arab-speaking high school in 1948- 150+ today), voting rights, a cabinet minister, etc.
Why did Ben-Gurion invite the arab party to help form the very first Israeli government. Why do non-Muslim arabs like Druze REQUEST conscription after being offered the chance to be recruited on a voluntary basis?
Why is it that the Arabs who LEFT Israel in 1948 are still for the much part left in refugee camps?
Why do none of these persecuted Arabs in Israel proper not leave, if they are being so badly treated?
Ask yourself- how badly can they be treated if a student who caricatures Arafat as a pig gets 16 months in jail for inciting hatred, but the PA can run terrorist training camps for children aged seven and younger, without a whisper of complaint?
I'll close with a quote-
"What Arab country gives its inhabitants the liberty to protest, to publish articles and books opposing the government (as many Jews and Palestinians do in Israel)? What Arab country has free elections or a judicial system in which all are treated equally before the law? None. In Israel, Palestinians have more freedom and more economic opportunities than they have in any Arab country, and than they could possibly have in a future Palestinian state run by the PLO or any other dictatorial group. If the choice is between a Palestinian state run by terrorists like Arafat and remaining under Israeli rule, the latter is by far the better option."- Yaron Brock

[Si tacet]

Anti-semitism DOES NOT mean being anti- "semites".

The term "anti-Semite" was coined in Germany in 1879 by Wilhelm Marrih to refer to the anti-Jewish manifestations of the period and to give Jew-hatred a more scientific sounding name.

"Anti-Semitism" has been accepted and understood to mean hatred of the Jewish people. Dictionaries define the term as: "Theory, action, or practice directed against the Jews" and "Hostility towards Jews as a religious or racial minority group, often accompanied by social, economic and political discrimination.

The claim that Arabs as "Semites" cannot possibly be anti-Semitic is a semantic distortion that ignores the reality of Arab discrimination and hostility toward Jews. Arabs, like any other people, can indeed be anti-Semitic.

I don't agree that all criticism of Israel is anti-semitic (though some certainly is- Robert Fisk, et al) - BUT anti-Zionism (the belief that there should not be a state for Jews) IS anti-semitic - just consider how many more Jews would have died in the USSR, the arab/muslim world and elsewhere if it had not been for the existence of Israel- and extend that to the present day. The conclusions should be quite clear.

Read more here (I just copied and pasted the relevant section):
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mf15.html


Si tacet

[The Yosemite Bear]

What about Sammy Davis and Harry Belefonte?

Those two definatly don't look like your stereotypical Jews.

Then again I got enough Irish in me that I look like the poster boy for the Naxi's and yet I'm Jewish.

[oberon]

Quite frankly it would take a great deal of time referencing some assertitions, and then givng people on the board lessons in foriegn ancient langauges, texts, problems with modern translations, etc.

HAHAHAHAHA! Oh boy, you're so smart. HAHAHAHA

[oberon]

Hey guys, what's the definition of irony?

"your blind of the situtation or a patholigicial liar or just plain retaired."

"situtation", hoo ho ho
"patholigicial", ahhh, haha hee hee
"retaired", BWAAAAA-HAHAHAH!

[Azeron]

HAHAHAHAHA! Oh boy, you're so smart. HAHAHAHA

It took the better part of a decade (collegic and high school) studing the subjects I am knowledgeable in. What you dismiss as arroggent claims, represents years of hard work, mulling throuigh translations, studying books every night of the week. (average HS night was about 2-3 hours)

I can say with certianity compared to my high school's capacity for academic rigosr and challenege (if you chose to avail yourself of it) college was a breeze. Life is funny like that.

[oberon]

Hmmm, what? College was a beeze, therefore you can't spell even when trying to establish some credibility? Oh, man. Hey, I cut my thumb in the garden the other day!