Most British Beer contains Fish!

[Andrew J.]

It’s just that my life isn’t a struggle for survival in fact it’s ridiculously easy and I’ve chosen not to inflict “a horrible painful death” upon other animals without good reason.

You do realize, of course, that animals are not killed "on demand" for the people that want to eat them. Your decision not to eat meat-and indeed, the sum total of every vegetarian and vegan in America, if not the world-has had just about zero effect on the total number of animals killed by the meat industry. So, to me, it does seem a a little pointless.

In other words, don't think of it as killing other animals and eating them, think of it as finding a dead animal someone else killed and eating that.

And what's with the "horrible, painful death" stuff? I was under the impression that animals were slaughtered more or less instantly. You make it sound like they're drawn and quartered or something.

[Stofsk]

Personally, the best argument I've ever heard of in support of vegetarianism is the straight and simple admission of: "I simply don't like the taste." You can't argue with that, even if you may not agree. However, claiming vegetarianism somehow reduces the level of suffering in animal slaughter is dubious.

Omnivore, all the way. Meat AND veggies, equal diet and equal suffering for all those poor animals and plants.

[Plekhanov]

It's possible that Shep had read about vegans not getting vitamin B12 in their diets (since it is only acquired thorugh eating meat) and was thinking of that when he wrote the "unbalanced diet" thing. The Jains only survived because their foot was infested enough with insects that the little bits of bugs that they ate accidentally provided them with enough vitamin B12 for them. Plekhanov, I'm guessing that you do take supplements for the missing B12. Am I right? The human body doesn't need much and can store away it for years, but you need a little bit to live, and if it's not meat it has to come from somewhere else.

Thanks for the info I think I’m safe though as I'm what’s technically known as a lacto-ovo-vegetarian, which means I eat dairy products and eggs but no other animal products, not a vegan (which would be far too much trouble for someone who’s dominant characteristic is laziness) so B12 isn’t problem.

snip

Apology/explanation for your being a jerk accepted. I hope you realise that just because of the 4 people (a pathetically small sample size to base a judgement upon) you know with a certain characteristic 3 are annoying and the other doesn’t want to swap bodily fluids it doesn’t give you the right to unload on another unconnected individual who happens to share the characteristic.

You do realize, of course, that animals are not killed "on demand" for the people that want to eat them. Your decision not to eat meat-and indeed, the sum total of every vegetarian and vegan in America, if not the world-has had just about zero effect on the total number of animals killed by the meat industry. So, to me, it does seem a a little pointless.

In other words, don't think of it as killing other animals and eating them, think of it as finding a dead animal someone else killed and eating that.

Congratulations you have come up with probably the worst argument against vegetarianism so far in this thread, I wouldn’t really know about the US but there a several million vegetarians in the UK the market for vegetarian food is worth hundreds of millions/billions a year, that’s money that would otherwise have been spent on dead animals the effect may be small but its still there.

I’m well aware that I’m an individual in a world of billions and that in the big picture my actions don’t count, so what? I don’t care if I’m the only vegetarian on earth the fact is I’m morally responsible for my own actions and I choose not to contribute to the upkeep of an industry I believe to be morally wrong.

Your argument is essentially everybody else is doing it so why don’t you? Would you also have applied this to an abolitionist in the old south? Someone who refused to loot in a riot? A member of the Red Army who chose not to rape German women?

And what's with the "horrible, painful death" stuff? I was under the impression that animals were slaughtered more or less instantly. You make it sound like they're drawn and quartered or something.

"a horrible, painful death" was a direct quote from the post by BkbrryTheGreat that I was responding to. This is not a thread about the evils of eating meat or an attempt to convert anybody I wish people would stop treating it as if it was, I was simply pointing out my surprise and dismay at finding out that most beer has fish in it.

Personally, the best argument I've ever heard of in support of vegetarianism is the straight and simple admission of: "I simply don't like the taste." You can't argue with that, even if you may not agree.

Sadly I can’t use that one as whilst really don’t care for meat I am tempted by seafood.

However, claiming vegetarianism somehow reduces the level of suffering in animal slaughter is dubious.

My being vegetarian reduces the amount of animal suffering I’m personally responsible for that’s good enough for me.

[LordShaithis]

Can we start a collection to buy Plekhanov a testicle transplant? Between describing himself as a "feminist" and complaining about a lack of "vege safe" beer, I fear the poor lad needs it.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Living organisms survive at the cost of other living organisms- even if it means they die a horrible painful death as a result. Welcome to fucking reality.

What’s with all this welcome to reality stuff? I’ve read a little on evolution, I’ve seen nature documentaries, I used to live on a fucking farm I’m well aware that life is often a desperate struggle and those who fail die. It’s just that my life isn’t a struggle for survival in fact it’s ridiculously easy and I’ve chosen not to inflict “a horrible painful death” upon other animals without good reason.

Do you use any modern medicine? I refuse to stomach PETA types who use vaccinations which were created by torturing animals by intentionally giving them diseases during research, but crow at the "moral crimes" of eating meat.

Besides, killing is not an a priori wrong. What is wrong is murder, which is why self-defense isn't wrong. Its the selfish killing of a human person.

[Plekhanov]

Can we start a collection to buy Plekhanov a testicle transplant? Between describing himself as a "feminist" and complaining about a lack of "vege safe" beer, I fear the poor lad needs it.

I’m not complaining about the lack of veggie beer there’s plenty out there it’s just a bit of a pain remembering what is and isn’t safe. Just what exactly is so manly about eating steak and not describing yourself as a feminist anyway?

Do you use any modern medicine? I refuse to stomach PETA types who use vaccinations which were created by torturing animals by intentionally giving them diseases during research, but crow at the "moral crimes" of eating meat.

Besides, killing is not an a priori wrong. What is wrong is murder, which is why self-defense isn't wrong. Its the selfish killing of a human person.

Read the fucking thread before spouting off if you’d taken the trouble to do so you’d have seen that on page 1 in response to a similar (but more civil) post by superman I answered your question, as you seem unable to find it yourself here it is:

Do you take prescription medication? If you do, I hope you realize that gelatin is used to make the capsules. You know where gelatin comes from, right?

Yes and Yes.

I’m a veggie because I don’t think it’s right to kill animals just because they taste nice, I’m quite prepared to kill them for better reasons. So I take prescription medicine when necessary (though not recently as my supremely healthy veggie diet means I’m in perfectish health), if a doctor told me I needed to eat meat for health reasons I would, if I was in some kind of unlikely survival situation I’d do my best to kill and eat whatever was available.

Just for the record I approve of medical tests upon animals and think the current ethical guidelines upon academic research that prevent work like Harlow’s baby monkey from being carried out are too restrictive.

And for the last time I AM NOT A MEMBER OR SUPPORTER OF PETA I’m barely even aware of them as they don’t have much of a presence in the UK, if you have a problem with peta take it up with them don’t go after me just because I don’t drink beer with fish in it.

[beyond hope]

Vegetarian != PETArd

/not a vegetarian

[Colonel Olrik]

Fuck, people, it's not like Plekhanov's questioning our right to eat (lots of) meat or anything. I will never agree with his viewpoints, but they harm no one. Stop strawmaning what he says or something bad will happen to this thread.

[Glocksman]

Fuck, people, it's not like Plekhanov's questioning our right to eat (lots of) meat or anything. I will never agree with his viewpoints, but they harm no one. Stop strawmaning what he says or something bad will happen to this thread.

Someone call the Guinness Book people.
Olrik and I agree on something.

As long as vegetarians don't try to interfere with my rights to eat meat or hunt, I have no problem with the lifestyle, strange as it may appear to me.

The stereotypical 'vegans' on the other hand, who try to interfere with hunts and picket the local Ponderosa Steakhouse can kiss my ass. And I'd like to point out that deliberately jumping in front of a shotgun to save a deer isn't very healthy. Accidents can and do happen.

It's his decision to make, not mine, and I daresay that his relationship with food is healthier than mine as I'm scheduled to undergo bariatric surgery next month.

I wasn't aware of the use of fish by-products in beermaking. Live and Learn™.

[Superman]

And I'd like to point out that deliberately jumping in front of a shotgun to save a deer isn't very healthy. Accidents can and do happen.

Yeah, that's great. Shoot someone over killing a fucking animal. Very funny.

[Plekhanov]

I wasn't aware of the use of fish by-products in beermaking. Live and Learn™.

Thanks for the support, I started the thread because I was surprised to learn about the fish beer thing and thought others might find it interesting to. Hope your surgery goes well.

[Glocksman]

And I'd like to point out that deliberately jumping in front of a shotgun to save a deer isn't very healthy. Accidents can and do happen.

Yeah, that's great. Shoot someone over killing a fucking animal. Very funny.

Let's put it this way.

If you're stupid enough to jump in front of a loaded gun that the wielder is perhaps a half second away from pulling the trigger and you get shot, it's your own damn fault for being an idiot.


If I'm concentrating on my aim and I'm just about to pull the trigger and you all of a sudden jump in front of me and as a result of my being startled, my finger takes up the last few ounces of trigger squeeze and the gun discharges a load of OO buckshot into your chest, whose fault is it?


I have no sympathy whatsoever for any animal rights lunatics who wind up getting killed by their own actions.


Think of it as chlorine for the gene pool.

For the record, I don't hunt but I support the rights of those who do.

[Glocksman]

Thanks for the support, I started the thread because I was surprised to learn about the fish beer thing and thought others might find it interesting to. Hope your surgery goes well.

Thanks.

After the surgery I'll learn about the vegetarian lifestyle as my meals will be limited to 4 ounces of pureed vegetables, gelatin, or cottage cheese six times per day.

No more 12 oz Sirloins.

[Superman]

Of course, my lifestyle is extreme because of my wrestling and bodybuilding, but I cannot imagine abstaining from meat. I eat chicken, fish, egg whites and turkey almost every day. I also eat beef twice per week. Of course, I know the power of veggies too, as I eat tons of broccoli, corn, peas, and spinach.

Anyway, meat is a key source of protein for someone like myself.

BTW, I did once help to train a vegetarian body builder. Although he ate lots of veggie proteins, his lack of animal proteins severely limited him. He did put on a little mass, but nothing like us meat eaters gain.

[Plekhanov]

Thanks.

After the surgery I'll learn about the vegetarian lifestyle as my meals will be limited to 4 ounces of pureed vegetables, gelatin, or cottage cheese six times per day.

No more 12 oz Sirloins.

Ouch that sounds a little extreme even for me

Of course, my lifestyle is extreme because of my wrestling and bodybuilding, but I cannot imagine abstaining from meat. I eat chicken, fish, egg whites and turkey almost every day. I also eat beef twice per week. Of course, I know the power of veggies too, as I eat tons of broccoli, corn, peas, and spinach.

Anyway, meat is a key source of protein for someone like myself.

BTW, I did once help to train a vegetarian body builder. Although he ate lots of veggie proteins, his lack of animal proteins severely limited him. He did put on a little mass, but nothing like us meat eaters gain.

Body building is probably one of the worst sports for veggies we aren’t so bad at endurance type stuff though, I remember back when I was first getting into the sport the British female cross country mountain bike champion was a vegan I dunno maybe if she’d eaten meat she’d have won the worlds but still its not too shabby.

Still in cycling but with less success, back when Linda McCartney (she started a brand of veggie food in the UK I don’t know If you get them in the US) had a cycle team I remember it was in the contract that all the pros had to go veggie (or maybe vegan I can’t remember) they weren’t that good a team though, not surprising really if they had to eat her crappy sausages and pies all the time.

[Andrew J.]

Congratulations you have come up with probably the worst argument against vegetarianism so far in this thread, I wouldn’t really know about the US but there a several million vegetarians in the UK the market for vegetarian food is worth hundreds of millions/billions a year, that’s money that would otherwise have been spent on dead animals the effect may be small but its still there.

A characteristic of capitalist economies is a tendency towards overproduction. I doubt that if vegetarians suddenly became meat eaters there would be a necessity to kill more animals to meet the increased demand.

Your argument is essentially everybody else is doing it so why don’t you? Would you also have applied this to an abolitionist in the old south? Someone who refused to loot in a riot? A member of the Red Army who chose not to rape German women?[/qutoe]

No. Well, maybe the looter.

Actually, my argument is "It's not your fault an animal died if you eat it after the fact." And not just any animals, either, but animals specifically bred for being eaten and making more animals, too weak and stupid to survive for long in the wild. If you don't eat them, someone else will, or they'll get thrown away where seagulls and flies and bacteria will.

You're gojng to be eaten someday, too, you know. And so am I, and every other human, and every other creature that lives, has lived, or will live is destined to be eaten by something else. If it tastes good, it might as well be you doing the eating, right?

[LordShaithis]

Pfft. Everyone knows a REAL man will bite the head off a baby seal and then beat his woman with the corpse. Wuss.

[Dalton]

Thanks for the support Hemlock it’s ok though apart from Dalton’s, jenat-lai’s, Sheps and BlkbrryTheGreat’s contributions on the whole it’s been a worthwhile exchange of ideas.

Thanks, chuckles, that means a lot.

All I'm sayin' is that "intentionally killing animals because they taste nice" is pretty much...well, nature. That's all.

[Batman]

All I'm sayin' is that "intentionally killing animals because they taste nice" is pretty much...well, nature. That's all.

Actually one might argue that 'killing animals because they are an irreplaceable part of your diet' is pretty much nature.
The thing is that for humans, that's no longer true. You can have a perfectly balanced diet without eating meat.
I'm very much a meat eater myself, and I won't pretend to really understand veges or vegans (hell, I can't claim I really understand the difference),but if that's what he chooses to do, who are we to tell him he's WRONG? (Which is, let's face it, what some of us have been trying to do).
Who is he hurting?
And if your answer is 'the meat industry', methinks you just made Plekhanov's point
NTM wasn't this originally about beer containing fish (which I consider a rather scary preposition myself, and not only because I don't eat fish...)?

[Plekhanov]

A characteristic of capitalist economies is a tendency towards overproduction. I doubt that if vegetarians suddenly became meat eaters there would be a necessity to kill more animals to meet the increased demand.

The figures I’ve seen for vegetarians in the UK range from 3 to 7 million (out of a population of about 60 mil) do you really think that if we were all to suddenly start eating meat the food industry wouldn’t find it necessary to kill a single extra animal? Even with all the subsidies pumped into the European farming that kind of spare capacity seems a little extreme.

Actually, my argument is "It's not your fault an animal died if you eat it after the fact."

It might have died anyway it might not that’s irrelevant, I’m morally responsible if I personally reimburse those “at fault” by paying for the meat.

And not just any animals, either, but animals specifically bred for being eaten and making more animals, too weak and stupid to survive for long in the wild. If you don't eat them, someone else will, or they'll get thrown away where seagulls and flies and bacteria will.

I must have occurred to you that I’m unlikely to be a fan of the factory farming system and pity the poor animals raised within it so pointing out that the unfortunate animals within the factory farming system wouldn’t be alive if we didn’t intend to eat them really isn’t going to sway me. I’m not suggesting for a second that we should release all the over-bred cattle, pigs or what ever “in the wild” where they can live free, starve to death and get run over, but if the world turned miraculously veggie tomorrow I wouldn’t mourn all those future generations of animals which would otherwise have been bred to be slaughtered.

You're gojng to be eaten someday, too, you know. And so am I, and every other human, and every other creature that lives, has lived, or will live is destined to be eaten by something else. If it tastes good, it might as well be you doing the eating, right?

No doubt I am but I hope that after dieing peacefully in my sleep my cremated my ashes are be consumed by whatever eats ashes rather than my life being abruptly shortened by somebody who thinks I might taste nice char-grilled.

Pfft. Everyone knows a REAL man will bite the head off a baby seal and then beat his woman with the corpse. Wuss.

Rubbish real men (by which I mean vegetarian, feminists brave/dumb enough to make their vegetarian, feminist tendencies known on sd.com) mud wrestle their women whilst hung-over (after a night of drinking fish free beer) without the aid of weapons with at least one hand tied behind their back, you seal swinging wimps don’t even come close.

[muse]

Body building is probably one of the worst sports for veggies we aren’t so bad at endurance type stuff though, I remember back when I was first getting into the sport the British female cross country mountain bike champion was a vegan I dunno maybe if she’d eaten meat she’d have won the worlds but still its not too shabby.

It is possible for a vegetarian to perform well in endurance events, but it's very, very hard for one to successfully compete at the national level. It takes a lot of very careful planning of the diet, often times the person will actually have to use a scale the weigh every portion of food to get the nutrient and vitamin mix right. I know a few people in my swim club who are vegetarians, and for the most part they do pretty well, but as I mentioned they have to be far more diciplined in their eating habits than the rest of us. I can eat ice cream and chow down on junk food and get away with it, they can't, if they do the same their performance suffer. I swim at the national level though, so for us nutrition is quite important, a lot more so than for a casual athlete.

[Dalton]

All I'm sayin' is that "intentionally killing animals because they taste nice" is pretty much...well, nature. That's all.

Actually one might argue that 'killing animals because they are an irreplaceable part of your diet' is pretty much nature.
The thing is that for humans, that's no longer true. You can have a perfectly balanced diet without eating meat.

True enough, if you're lucky enough to live in a nation advanced enough to support your chosen lifestyle.

I'm very much a meat eater myself, and I won't pretend to really understand veges or vegans (hell, I can't claim I really understand the difference),but if that's what he chooses to do, who are we to tell him he's WRONG? (Which is, let's face it, what some of us have been trying to do).

*shrug* Not me. I was just pointing out that eating meat has been human nature for thousands of years. Though I do find it a bit odd that he'd have a problem with killing animals for food yet willingly accept the deaths of animals via pesticides, clearing land etc. as "collateral damage".

Who is he hurting?
And if your answer is 'the meat industry', methinks you just made Plekhanov's point
NTM wasn't this originally about beer containing fish (which I consider a rather scary preposition myself, and not only because I don't eat fish...)?

Vegetables are grown from cow shit. *shrug*

[Ma Deuce]

Vegetables are grown from cow shit. *shrug*

But unlike fish scales, you generally don't have to kill cows to get their shit .

[Batman]

Vegetables are grown from cow shit. *shrug*

And since we both admit we're willing to eat the cow it originally came from, your point is...?

[Plekhanov]

It is possible for a vegetarian to perform well in endurance events, but it's very, very hard for one to successfully compete at the national level. It takes a lot of very careful planning of the diet, often times the person will actually have to use a scale the weigh every portion of food to get the nutrient and vitamin mix right. I know a few people in my swim club who are vegetarians, and for the most part they do pretty well, but as I mentioned they have to be far more diciplined in their eating habits than the rest of us. I can eat ice cream and chow down on junk food and get away with it, they can't, if they do the same their performance suffer. I swim at the national level though, so for us nutrition is quite important, a lot more so than for a casual athlete.

I couldn’t really comment upon your mates but Sally Hibbert (something like that anyway I can’t really remember her exact name this was 1991/2 and I wasn’t really paying attention) was the UK national champion in a professional endurance sport for 2 years running and she was a vegan, it may be more difficult but it’s not impossible.

As for myself I’ve raced a little at the local and regional level with mixed results but I tend to think it’s more my slack training and complete lack talent rather than a defective diet that’s stopped me donning the rainbow jersey.

[*shrug* Not me. I was just pointing out that eating meat has been human nature for thousands of years. Though I do find it a bit odd that he'd have a problem with killing animals for food yet willingly accept the deaths of animals via pesticides, clearing land etc. as "collateral damage".

To extent your use of military terminology do you really not see the qualitative difference between deliberately killing civilians for now good reason on the one hand and accepting that civilians may die as “collateral damage” whilst you pursue legitimate objectives whilst taking reasonable steps to minimise civilian casualties?