Soldier 2025 - Stormtroopers are becoming reality

[MKSheppard]

I was going to not dignify that bit of fancy with a response but I suppose I should just point out the obvious that no matter how much we would wish it otherwise it will always take a human, acting on limited knowledge and instinct, at the right time and place to be able to win a good old fight. Marines are trained for such things and its what we do, let the politicians set the goals, the Generals plan the strategy, and the Captains (or Lieutenants) command the troops while the Sargeants lead them.

'Bit of fancy'? We can do that with our technology NOW. Hell, if the
enemy is going to play dirty by holing up in the cities and forcing
a brutal house-to-house battle ala stalingrad, why do we have to
play by HIS rules in man-o-mano combat?

[TrailerParkJawa]

Just send in the robotic drones armed with a M-249 SAW on a flex-mount and a 5,000 round hopper feeding it.

Wooosh -- RPG blows it to heck. No more in stock, time to do it the old fashioned way.

[CmdrWilkens]

I was going to not dignify that bit of fancy with a response but I suppose I should just point out the obvious that no matter how much we would wish it otherwise it will always take a human, acting on limited knowledge and instinct, at the right time and place to be able to win a good old fight. Marines are trained for such things and its what we do, let the politicians set the goals, the Generals plan the strategy, and the Captains (or Lieutenants) command the troops while the Sargeants lead them.

'Bit of fancy'? We can do that with our technology NOW. Hell, if the
enemy is going to play dirty by holing up in the cities and forcing
a brutal house-to-house battle ala stalingrad, why do we have to
play by HIS rules in man-o-mano combat?

Because, despite your wishes, it will take a human on the ground, at the scene, to find and roust the enemy from his hidey-hole amongst a civilian populace.

[TrailerParkJawa]

'Bit of fancy'? We can do that with our technology NOW. Hell, if the
enemy is going to play dirty by holing up in the cities and forcing
a brutal house-to-house battle ala stalingrad, why do we have to
play by HIS rules in man-o-mano combat?

Because a little robot is not a flexible as a Marine or any other human soldier.

How would this thing differentiate between friend and foe?

[MKSheppard]

Because a little robot is not a flexible as a Marine or any other human soldier.

How would this thing differentiate between friend and foe?

Obviously, blowing the entire city to pieces with 155mm direct fire
rounds is out, and the US public is very reluctant as far as casualties
are concerned.

The UUCV (Unmanned Urban Combat Vehicle) would basically be a small
semi-autonomous robot armed with a basic machine gun or grenade
launcher and would be operating under command guidance from a
Marine Platoon in a building a few hundred yards away through
either wire guidance or radio guidance.

Basically, a Marine would be controlling the robot as it moved
through the city, acting as an advance scout for the Marine
platoon.

Why send a man to scout a dangerous alleyway and get killed when you
can send a robot to do a man's job?

[MKSheppard]

Because, despite your wishes, it will take a human on the ground, at the scene, to find and roust the enemy from his hidey-hole amongst a civilian populace.

That worked really damn well in Mogadishu, didn't it?

[TrailerParkJawa]

Obviously, blowing the entire city to pieces with 155mm direct fire
rounds is out, and the US public is very reluctant as far as casualties
are concerned.

No arguement here.

Why send a man to scout a dangerous alleyway and get killed when you can send a robot to do a man's job?

Thats not the impression I got from your post. I thought you were saying the robot was a weapon to actually do the fighting, not scouting.

[MKSheppard]

Wooosh -- RPG blows it to heck. No more in stock, time to do it the old fashioned way.

Except by firing the RPG, your opponent has revealed his position.

Cost of Semi-Autonomous Robot: $50,000

Cost of your opponent revealing his position: Priceless

[MKSheppard]

Thats not the impression I got from your post. I thought you were saying the robot was a weapon to actually do the fighting, not scouting.

I was going to edit the post to add that in, but SD net burped big time, and I
had to reload a new browser window to get in..

[MKSheppard]

Anyway, I'm talking about something smaller than a man...about the size of
maybe a dog or so....with possibly a gasoline engine as power source,
and using technology as cheap as possible as you can get it...the point is
to make these things as expendable as possible, keeping in with US Doctrine
that it is better to waste equipment then men whenver possible.

[TrailerParkJawa]

I was going to edit the post to add that in, but SD net burped big time, and I had to reload a new browser window to get in..

It burped on me too. For just scouting Im thinkin over the years we will see increased use of mini-flyers. Cheap disposable UAV's. Even one small enough to fly down a city street. Although enemy forces might just hide from mini flyer. A robot with a gun that can drive through the front door is a little different. Although small groups of men, would evade it too.

[Sea Skimmer]

Wooosh -- RPG blows it to heck. No more in stock, time to do it the old fashioned way.

Except by firing the RPG, your opponent has revealed his position.

Cost of Semi-Autonomous Robot: $50,000

Cost of your opponent revealing his position: Priceless

Cost of Mk84 converted to GBU-31 JDAM, 21,000 dollars..

[Coyote]

Because, despite your wishes, it will take a human on the ground, at the scene, to find and roust the enemy from his hidey-hole amongst a civilian populace.

That worked really damn well in Mogadishu, didn't it?

Oh, hell, like Mogadishu is an example of how to do things right. That was a ratfuck operation before the boots hit the ground. That op didn't fail because of the men on the ground; it failed because our overly-politicized so-called "leaders" [fart]Bill Clinton[/fart] wouldn't provide the proper amounts of support because they didn't want the world to see Americans "afraid" of the Somalis.

They wanted tanks and other armor, they got shit. Their lives were wasted to make a fucking political statement. With the proper support, they'd've owned that shitburg and every dickhead in it.

[Sea Skimmer]

I was going to edit the post to add that in, but SD net burped big time, and I had to reload a new browser window to get in..

It burped on me too. For just scouting Im thinkin over the years we will see increased use of mini-flyers. Cheap disposable UAV's. Even one small enough to fly down a city street. Although enemy forces might just hide from mini flyer. A robot with a gun that can drive through the front door is a little different. Although small groups of men, would evade it too.

Or toss a grenade around a corner and kill it, assuming the walls are strong enough anyway. If not, just bring up an M2 and simply walk the fire across each floor. Worked quite well in Vietnam.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

An FN MAG can shoot through brick walls.

Imagine what it will do to wood and breeze block.

[MKSheppard]

We already spend at least a few hundred K per ATGM, so this would be
a minimal expense compared to the cost of a platoon of fully trained marines
put out of action through KIAs or WIAs during urban combat.

I bet the guys in Grozny or Stalingrad would have LOVED to have a remote
controlled robot to tell them what the hell was around the other corner
without them having to send a guy with a mirror around...

What I'm arguing against is the current Marine mindset of "URRAH URRAH!
We're trained to be the best, so we'll kick everyones ass!"....

Even the best trained units will get chewed up in street fighting, and this
little gizmo is designed to help alleviate the hazards of street fighting
through technology, rather than raw manpower...

[MKSheppard]

This little baby is only 2.6 metres long....

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/cacsystemes/drones_f.html

Use that to ID enemy concentrations, and then send in Marine
AH-1 Cobras to rocket and cannon the shit out of strongpoints
before you go inside the city..



http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/dragon.htm

BQM-147A Exdrone
Dragon Drone

The Exdrone system is a low-cost reconnaissance unmanned aerial vehicle designed to support regiment and brigade size commands. It is a delta platform flying wing air vehicle that is 5 feet long and has a wingspan of 8 feet, powered by a small one-cylinder, two-cycle, air-cooled engine with a two-blade propeller. The flight control system consists of a UHF uplink receiver connected to a Global Positioning System (GPS) based autopilot. The autopilot is a 16-bit microprocessor controlled system which provides up to 5-pre-programmable waypoints. The air vehicle is gyro stabilized and capable of programmed autonomous flight. It uses microwave energy to downlink information to the ground control stations. When tasked, the Exdrone launches from a secure area behind the Forward Line of Own Troops (FLOT). It has a launch weight of 89 pounds and a 25 pound payload capacity. It is launched by a pneumatic rail. Once airborne, the launch pilot flies the air vehicle to the cruise altitude. The vehicle service ceiling is 10,000 feet, however, the mission altitude is usually between 3,000 - 4,000 feet above ground level. It has three modes of operation: Manual flight, manual override autopilot, or full autonomous. The Exdrone began as a research and development effort to build a low-cost expendable drone capable of carrying a VHF communications jammer. The aircraft have since been modified with several different payloads to provide reconnaissance. One of the payloads is the Pulinex TM-7i down-looking color TV camera. It is a commercial-off-the-shelf color camera that provides 570 lines of resolution and a six power zoom lens. This particular camera has a national imagery interpretability rating scale (NIRS) of 4 at 3,000-4,000 feet above ground level. Other payloads available include an Image Intensifier, and Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR) cameras. Experimentation and testing continue for additional payloads. These payloads include a communication jammer, communications relay, deception decoys, mine detection capabilities, and an airborne nuclear, biological and chemical detection suite. Most of these payloads are commercial-off-the-shelf or government-off-the- shelf technologies. An Exdrone unit consists of ten air vehicles, two ground control stations, a pneumatic launcher, associated ground support equipment, and crew of six people. The system is small enough to be transported over land in two High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicles (HMMWV), or flown into the theater of operations by one C-130 cargo aircraft. The 101st Airborne and 1st Cavalry Divisions currently operate the system. Once the vehicle is launched and reaches cruise altitude, the launch pilot activates the autopilot which takes control and proceeds to the mission target area. The aircraft has a top speed of 100 miles per hour and a mission endurance of about two-and-a-half hours. The vehicle is controlled by the launch team if the operating area is within line-of-sight of the ground control station (usually about 50 kilometers). To extend operational range, a forward control team equipped with a Ground Control System can be positioned closer to the objective and extend the range. The Exdrone can loiter for about two hours. After reaching the target area the autopilot is programmed to loiter, fly a fixed track of way points, conduct point reconnaissance with the forward control pilot directing the flight, or conduct point reconnaissance with the launch pilot in control. When the mission is complete the autopilot guides the aircraft to a predetermined recovery point where it is recovered by parachute. If more coverage time is needed, another vehicle is launched and sent to the objective before returning the first aircraft. The Ground Control System can control two aircraft simultaneously. The Exdrone has several limitations. First it has a short range because it is restricted by line-of-sight controls. Measures are needed to increase its range. Second, the UHF uplink control frequency band is often used for tactical communications. If proper frequency coordination is not made, the Exdrone can be jammed by friendly forces. If "friendly" forces can jam it unintentionally, it seems obvious that "unfriendly" forces could intentionally jam it. Finally, the aircraft has a very small payload, putting severe limitations on the amount of equipment and sensors that can be mounted on a single aircraft.

The Dragon Drone originated as the Exdrone and flew successful missions during Advanced Warfighting Experiment Hunter Warrior at 29 Palms, California. The drone was originally designed to provide a small, inexpensive, but highly capable sensor delivery asset at the lower unit level. However, the Dragon Drone exceeded its original design. Marines with no UAV experience conducted missions. The drone provided near-real-time video surveillance of the battlefield to the ECOC at Camp Pendleton.

Additional capabilities include: night FLIR image transmission with laser rangefinder, day color image transmission with laser rangefinder, target identification and location to within 50 meters, non-lethal weapons delivery, and surveillance for search and rescue operations.

Currently, 10 Dragon Drones are assigned to each of the following commands: I Marine Expeditionary Force, Camp Pendleton, Calif.; II Marine Expeditionary Force, Camp Lejeune, NC; Marine Expeditionary Force replacements; and the Marine Corps Warfighting Lab for further technology development.

The Marine Corps Warfighting Laboratory (MCWL) has a requirement to purchase Reconnaissance / Surveillance And Target Acquisition (RSTA) payloads for the Dragon Warrior program. Dragon Warrior is an experimental Vertical Take Off and Landing (VTOL) drone currently in development under contract number M67854-99-C-2081. In previous years, MCWL has purchase 21 payloads consisting of day Pan, Tilt, Zoom (PTZ) cameras coupled with laser range finders and 14 pan-tilt Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR) cameras coupled with laser range finders. This requirement includes the fabrication and testing of Dragon Warrior RSTA payloads utilizing existing Government Furnished Equipment (GFE), if a cost savings is possible. Compared to the Dragon Drone payloads, the Dragon Warrior payloads shall be different in the following ways:

[TrailerParkJawa]

Oh, hell, like Mogadishu is an example of how to do things right. That was a ratfuck operation before the boots hit the ground. That op didn't fail because of the men on the ground; it failed because our overly-politicized so-called "leaders" [fart]Bill Clinton[/fart] wouldn't provide the proper amounts of support because they didn't want the world to see Americans "afraid" of the Somalis.

They wanted tanks and other armor, they got shit. Their lives were wasted to make a fucking political statement. With the proper support, they'd've owned that shitburg and every dickhead in it.

Garrison, the Ranger commander, never made a request for armor. The armor request was made by the 10th Mountain. Any armor that would have arrived would not be under the Rangers control so the mission would have still been the same, unless the Rangers would have explicitly shared their plans with the 10th. There was armor available but there was it belonged to the UN and there was not adequete communication with them either.

Those Rangers did an outstanding job, but they were up against the sheer weight of numbers with a mission that went bad.

Aspin's decision to turn down armor can be criticized fairly but there was whole lot more going wrong in Somalia. It was only a matter of time before the shit started rolling down hill.

[TrailerParkJawa]

What I'm arguing against is the current Marine mindset of "URRAH URRAH! We're trained to be the best, so we'll kick everyones ass!"....

I have not seen that mind set here. Everyone is just saying a robot is more limited than a man. Except for payroll and food of course.

[MKSheppard]

Except for payroll and food of course.

Except you don't have to worry about filling body bags with them or
writing "Dear Mr and Mrs Robot Drone, your drone died valiantly
in the line of duty blah blah blah..." to IBM.

[TrailerParkJawa]

Except you don't have to worry about filling body bags with them or
writing "Dear Mr and Mrs Robot Drone, your drone died valiantly
in the line of duty blah blah blah..." to IBM.

As long as they are not made by Sony. I can see it now. Purple Recon Vaios.

[MKSheppard]

As long as they are not made by Sony. I can see it now. Purple Recon Vaios.

Unfortunately for the military/industrial complex, and fortunately for
soldiers, the recon drones of the future are not going to be $50 million
dollar mecha drones that can do anything a human can, but a $10,000
dollar drone that looks like a lego set with a shotgun mounted on it...

[The Dark]

Robots and humans will have to share the battlefield of the future. While Predator has proven the capability of tele-linked drones, we still do not have (AFAIK) a completely unmanned (by which I mean no human control) weapon. Recon, mostly, since Global Hawk can (IIRC) be programmed with conditionals before take-off to track targets of interest. However, our current programming is the biggest limitation, since the code necessary to create a safe combat robot (one that won't blow our guy's asses off) is hard to run on safe processors. I mean, c'mon, this is the same government whose spacecraft are outprocessed by a 486DX computer.

That said, Future Soldier 2025 is a good project for what it's intended for, urban combat. A small caliber gun allows for more rounds of ammunition, useful at the close ranges most urban combat occurs at. The rockets provide for long range firepower, and the blending system creates the camouflage currently lacking from most militaries for urban combat.

Where will drones be most used? Most likely in the air. Two UCAVs are already undergoing testing (Boeing's Pegasus and one whose name I don't recall), both of which are intended to be carrier-capable. Given the higher g-loading electronics can take over a human, they would make superb dogfighters and ground attack units (able to pull escape maneuvers a human cannot). Humans will be most useful as command and control units, providing the oversight of the drones. I personally feel a return to two-seater aircraft will return, with a pilot and a drone operator, where the DO keeps an eye on a handful of drones (4-6, just as a guess), analyzing the information and directing strikes, as the most logical target is not always the correct one. Of course, this is all just my own $0.02, and I'm sure the engineers and planners know far more about such projects than I do.

[CmdrWilkens]

Oh, hell, like Mogadishu is an example of how to do things right. That was a ratfuck operation before the boots hit the ground. That op didn't fail because of the men on the ground; it failed because our overly-politicized so-called "leaders" [fart]Bill Clinton[/fart] wouldn't provide the proper amounts of support because they didn't want the world to see Americans "afraid" of the Somalis.

They wanted tanks and other armor, they got shit. Their lives were wasted to make a fucking political statement. With the proper support, they'd've owned that shitburg and every dickhead in it.

Garrison, the Ranger commander, never made a request for armor. The armor request was made by the 10th Mountain. Any armor that would have arrived would not be under the Rangers control so the mission would have still been the same, unless the Rangers would have explicitly shared their plans with the 10th. There was armor available but there was it belonged to the UN and there was not adequete communication with them either.

No Garrison requested light armor...also known as M113 APCs and M2/3 IFVs. He didn't want or ask for tanks but he did request light armor support as well as a whoel HELL of a lot more overhead air assests (like the Spectres) but all were deinied for political and "cost effectivness" reasons.

Those Rangers did an outstanding job, but they were up against the sheer weight of numbers with a mission that went bad.

The Rangers engaged in a perfect example of how NOT to fight in an urban environment. Do you know what a city street is? Its a CANYON. Were this a battle where the Rangers were moving through a canyon with the enemy controlling the heights they would have been utterly berated for their foolishness in not securing the high ground and using it to increase their effectivness AND speed. Nonetheless they failed to recognize the neccessarry tactical objective of securing the high ground both to gaurd the troops on location AND to hold off the militants. The Ranger's movements to and around the chopper were a classic example of what NOT to do in MOUT situations.

[Alex Moon]

I'd settle for an arm-mounted flamethrower.

"You wanna knife me punk, huh, do ya? Have some of THIS!"

*FOOOOM*
*Punk runs around screaming and dying*

This reminds me alot like the good old Syndicate...

At last! Someone who remembers. Oh how I loved the flamer... Nothing says "crowd control" quite like seeing one of your buddies running around on fire.

A friend of mine was playing it on my old comp one time, and saw an enemy blip on the minimap, hidden behind a building. He sent a guy up with a flame thrower, and about 10 enemy soldiers came running out from the same spot all on fire.