Sixty one years ago.... the "day of infamy"

[Sea Skimmer]

That reminds of something that pissed me off when 9/11 occurred. The newscasters kept saying it was the first time American soil had been attacked since the War of 1812. False! A Japanese submarine-based floatplane dropped four bombs on Oregon during World War II, inflicting minor damage to...the forest. Apparently they were trying to start a forest fire, but only had HE bombs! I would also add (IIRC) that two of the Aleutian Islands were occupied during the Bale of Midway, but those were only a territory at the time, not a state.

The Japanese alse conducted a bombing campaign using balloons. The American authorities were able to suppress that information, which shows how effective it was. Then there was the shelling of that one town on the West coast. Hawaii and Alaska were just territories at the time, but that's still US soil. Attu, Kiska, and Pearl Harbor all count.

It was a refinery in Washington State. Eleven shells fired. No one even noticed the attack until they where leaving it was so powerful. Refinery was open the next day at full capacity with damage limited to a knocked over fence and some broken glass.

[Sea Skimmer]

the days of infamy were 6th and 9th of august a couple of years later.

dresden was worse anyway and unlike these cities was not a exactly a military target.

Major transportation target, defended, railyards loaded with munitions trains and factories in use to produce quite a few weapons. The follow-up USAF bombing raid the morning after the RAF torched the city specifically aimed for the rail yards. The people are still just as dead though.

[The Dark]

That reminds of something that pissed me off when 9/11 occurred. The newscasters kept saying it was the first time American soil had been attacked since the War of 1812. False! A Japanese submarine-based floatplane dropped four bombs on Oregon during World War II, inflicting minor damage to...the forest. Apparently they were trying to start a forest fire, but only had HE bombs! I would also add (IIRC) that two of the Aleutian Islands were occupied during the Bale of Midway, but those were only a territory at the time, not a state.

Actually they did drop incendiaries and did start fires. Problem was Oregon had just had heavy rain for several days and both quickly went out. There was also the whole balloon bomb thing. Several hundred bombs reach North American, both only four or it might have been five people got killed. A family found a dud while out for a picnic and it went off when disturbed.

Attu and Kisk where captured by the Japanses durning midway.

When will I learn to stop using sources I don't have in front of me? I knew the fires didn't start for some reason, but stupid me blamed it on the bombs instead of the weather. I'd forgotten about the balloon bombs (I actually have read about those, and how ineffective they were). Thanks for reminding me which islands the Japanese captured. I did an analysis of Midway for my American Military History course last year, and mentioned the Alaska captures, which surprised the people in the class. I got a laugh out of that later, since they were mostly officer trainees, and I'm a civvie who's looking to possibly become a chaplain.

[tharkûn]

The justification for two nuclear bombs on two cities is rather simple:

They didn't surrender after the first one. The death tolls were not beyond the reaches of many other bombing runs (like the incindeairy raids). If the Japanese are going to be awed into surrender by the mere demonstration of the weapon ... why in hell did it take 8 DAYS to uncoditionally surrender? How hard is it to send papers saying, "We surrender unconditionally".

Frankly the Japanese situation was hopeless. They were done. It was only a question of how bloody the end was. The military continued to hold to the beleif that "unconditional surrender" was not going to be enforced. US agents correctly predicted that the military would not surrender if the bomb was dropped in Tokyo harbor (which was extensively studied by the powers that were).

If the mere exesistance of the A-bomb is sufficient, then why were TWO needed?

[Typhonis 1]

Shock value BTW some sources stae that an Invasion of the Japanese home islands would result in at least 1 million US casualties .Also in November of that year one of the worst Typhoons hit the area it would have been very bad for a US invasion fleet iof caught there

[Sea Skimmer]

Shock value BTW some sources stae that an Invasion of the Japanese home islands would result in at least 1 million US casualties .Also in November of that year one of the worst Typhoons hit the area it would have been very bad for a US invasion fleet iof caught there

1 Million is and always has been bullshit. That would require an impossible loss rate. In actuality the expectation was 270,000 American causalities, 65,000 of them dead. This information was declassified in 1961.

The Japanese however where expect to lose two to three million during the invasion, in addition those who starve during the winter of 45-46. That would be a 22% increase in dead for America for the war, and a 117-176% plus increase for Japan.

[Sokar]

The 6th and 9th of Aug. days of infamy ??? FUCK YOU!! My Grandfather served in the Navy for the ENTIRE WAR....enlisted in 40', and didn't touch home soil again until 1946! He was at almost every battle from Tarawa to Saipan to Iwo Jima(He was a Fleet LST crewer and later a assault lander pilot) and I would have rather have roasted the whole island chain to a cinder than have risked his life on an invasion of the home islands. You wern't there to witness thousands of Jap troops fight to the DEATH for every wretched inch of thoes god forsaken islands. He did, repeatedly, and he once told me that he never doubted for a second that thoes two bombs saved tens of thousands of American soldiers lives(and by default milions of Japanese). Me , I dont doubt it for a second, but if you want to go play liberal PC pinko, hey thats your choice, but me I'll be content that thoes bombs ended the war, and brought my Grandfather home to his wife, and family who loved him.

[TrailerParkJawa]

Yesterday at Fry's I saw an old man with a USS Arizona hat. It said Peal Harbor survivor. There are not too many of those folks left. At first I wanted to say something, even if just hello. But I ended up with a polite nod after he noticed me reading his hat.

It is amazing how much has changed in the world since that man was a young sailor or marine.

[Sokar]

Yeah, next time you see some one like that, take a second, stop , and tell them "thank you". They went through hell, absolute hell, so that we could be free and lazy. they deserve our respect, and our eternal gratitude, not to mention if you do this you'll make an old vets day:-)
My Grandfather passed away 6 years ago this week....so maybe my above post is a bit harsh as he's been on my mind....but these veterans are leaving us at an astonishing rate, thousands everyday. Sadly today is a time when we could use their advice more than ever....Remeber our veterans folks they have seen the elephant, and know the cost that it extracts from us all.

[TrailerParkJawa]

My Grandfather passed away 6 years this week....so maybe my above post is a bit harsh as he's been on my mind....but thes veterans are leaving us at an astonishing rate, thousands everyday. Sadly today is a time when we could use their advice more than ever....Remeber our veterans folks they have seen the elephant, and know the cost that it extracts from us all.

I dont think your post was harsh. It showed that war has a human connection. Telling us about your grandpa shows that we are still connected to that legacy.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Well, yes and no. It is agreed that the real infamy happened in China, but it is also agreed that, like it or not, Pearl Harbour was a legitimate military target even if clear warning was not given (I reiterate that this is hardly unusual; the notion that you should warn your enemy before attacking him is frankly a little bizarre), so it's rather disproportionate, given all of the other things that happened in this war, to call Pearl a "day of infamy" over and above all of those other things.

I agree.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Actually I went to highschool with a young lady that did not want to go back to Japan under any circumstances. She said that She liked her american boyfriend, and the men her father approved of were a bunch of loud abusive perverts.

[MKSheppard]

Most of the rebuttals to this line of reasoning centre around the "Japs were insane!" argument, which is somewhat racist and belies actual conditions at the time. The Emperor knew that defeat was inevitable, and despite some fanatics in the upper echelons, surrender was inevitable too.

They WERE insane!

Jesus christ, any sane people would have surrendered against
a overwhelmingly superior force instead of forcing us to go burn
them out with flamethrowers.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

Apparently there were plans to arm over a million people with spears and fight the marines.

I guess the governemnt just fanned the flames of patriotism and pointed it in the required direction.

[Deimos Anomaly]

It's December 7, 2002. I don't think the date needs any explaination.

Yup. It means it's 314 years since the Siege of Derry began.




















OH wait, you were referring to Yank history.

I guess that'd make it 61 years since Pearl Harbour.

*Pays Respects to both the American and Ulster dead of this date*

[RedImperator]

IIRC, Marshall said later that Nagasaki had been a mistake. They had only given the Japanese 3 days to assess the damage from Hiroshima and come to a decision, and forgot to take into account that Japanese rail and communications systems were so badly damaged, and Hiroshima itself so completely obliterated, that it would take longer for Tokyo to fully understand what had just happened. Also, after Hiroshima, Marshall had wanted the second bomb dropped on a more military target, which was going to be Kokura and it's extensive military works and rail yard. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on where you lived at the time), it was overcast over Kokura and they went to the alternate target, Nagasaki. At any rate, nobody knows if the second bomb was necessary (I suspect it may have been, if the militarists were telling the Emperor that the Americans couldn't possibly have a second bomb, but I've got no proof).

[consequences]

The Japanese soldiers weren't insane, just culturally conditioned. They thought that if they surrendered, they would just be killed anyway.
The only reason the Japanese actions against civilians attract so much attention is that the rest of the world is so busy pretending they never did the same things a few undred years ago or sooner.

[The Dark]

Shock value BTW some sources stae that an Invasion of the Japanese home islands would result in at least 1 million US casualties .Also in November of that year one of the worst Typhoons hit the area it would have been very bad for a US invasion fleet iof caught there

1 Million is and always has been bullshit. That would require an impossible loss rate. In actuality the expectation was 270,000 American causalities, 65,000 of them dead. This information was declassified in 1961.

The Japanese however where expect to lose two to three million during the invasion, in addition those who starve during the winter of 45-46. That would be a 22% increase in dead for America for the war, and a 117-176% plus increase for Japan.

The official numbers were pulled out of the Army's ass. They wanted to justify an invasion, because they were afraid the combination of the new naval supercarriers (Midway-class) and the atomic bomb would make them obsolete. They ignored the casualty rates taken in the Marine invasions of Pacific islands and insisted casualty rates would be similar to the invasion of Europe, when they had caught Hitler off-guard by hitting Normandy rather than Pas de Calais. The Japanese had stationed their forces to hit exactly where the Army planned on landing. Given the Okinawa resistance, it is very likely the Home Islands would have armed their civilians for combat. There were 50,000 American casualties (out of an invasion force of 182,000) on Okinawa, a relatively minor island constituting .6 percent of Japan. The island only had 500,000 inhabitants, including civilians, meaning that there was one American casualty per 10 Japanese inhabitants. This operation was supported by a fleet of 1300 ships.

Some notes here: The casualty rate of conventional invasion on Okinawa was roughly 61.83% (273,361 out of roughly 442,058). The atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima had a casualty rate of 52.32% (180,000 out of 344,000). These rates are not much different, and the bomb actually caused a lower casualty rate than conventional invasion.

[Sea Skimmer]

Shock value BTW some sources stae that an Invasion of the Japanese home islands would result in at least 1 million US casualties .Also in November of that year one of the worst Typhoons hit the area it would have been very bad for a US invasion fleet iof caught there

1 Million is and always has been bullshit. That would require an impossible loss rate. In actuality the expectation was 270,000 American causalities, 65,000 of them dead. This information was declassified in 1961.

The Japanese however where expect to lose two to three million during the invasion, in addition those who starve during the winter of 45-46. That would be a 22% increase in dead for America for the war, and a 117-176% plus increase for Japan.

The official numbers were pulled out of the Army's ass. They wanted to justify an invasion, because they were afraid the combination of the new naval supercarriers (Midway-class) and the atomic bomb would make them obsolete. They ignored the casualty rates taken in the Marine invasions of Pacific islands and insisted casualty rates would be similar to the invasion of Europe, when they had caught Hitler off-guard by hitting Normandy rather than Pas de Calais. The Japanese had stationed their forces to hit exactly where the Army planned on landing. Given the Okinawa resistance, it is very likely the Home Islands would have armed their civilians for combat. There were 50,000 American casualties (out of an invasion force of 182,000) on Okinawa, a relatively minor island constituting .6 percent of Japan. The island only had 500,000 inhabitants, including civilians, meaning that there was one American casualty per 10 Japanese inhabitants. This operation was supported by a fleet of 1300 ships.

Some notes here: The casualty rate of conventional invasion on Okinawa was roughly 61.83% (273,361 out of roughly 442,058). The atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima had a casualty rate of 52.32% (180,000 out of 344,000). These rates are not much different, and the bomb actually caused a lower casualty rate than conventional invasion.

I'm not seeing your point here. Just an argument that a defense hastily dug into open costal plains would inflict the same losses as one well built into rock cliffs and mountains.

[MKSheppard]

I'm not seeing your point here. Just an argument that a defense hastily dug into open costal plains would inflict the same losses as one well built into rock cliffs and mountains.

The Japs correctly picked the invasion beaches that we were planning
on using....it would have been a BLOODBATH....

[The Dark]

I'm not seeing your point here. Just an argument that a defense hastily dug into open costal plains would inflict the same losses as one well built into rock cliffs and mountains.

The Japs correctly picked the invasion beaches that we were planning
on using....it would have been a BLOODBATH....

And they set up their defenses just beyond the American bombardment area (we had gotten stupid and bombarded to the same distance every time). Their plan was to counterattack the moment the amphibious ships hit the ground. Their troops were not fully supplied when the bombs hit, but they would have been at full readiness by the time the invasion was ready. If an invasion of the entire Home Islands had been necessary and the Japanese used Okinawa style tactics of arming the civilians, it is definite that Japanese casualties would have been far worse. The atomic bombs not only saved at least 65,000 American lives (using the Army's numbers), but also large numbers of Japanese lives.

[Howedar]

The second bomb was for Stalin, not Hirohito and Tojo.

[tharkûn]

Sea Skimmer have you ever read Ketsu-go? The american planners VASTLY underestimated the cost of Olympic and Coronet. They planned on D-Day style casualties ... this would be ANYTHING BUT D-Day II.

For instance it was assumed that the Japanese had at most 2,500 aircraft. In reality they had 12,725. The planners thought they'd see 300 kamikazes, Ketsu-go called for near continious kamikaze runs on the landing craft ... 825 kamikazees would be launched in the first wave alone. Subsequent waves would consist of 200-300 kamikazes each hour. Given the success of kamikazees at Okinawa (where they went after destroyer as opposed to troop transports targeted in Ketsu-go), which is hideously far away from the launch sites and had ground based fighter cover ...

Added to the mix would be the Japanese suicide subs/manned torps. Kairyu, Koryu, and Kaitens could be expected to wreak havoc on transports and landing craft. Adding to the mix would be Fukuryu ... thousands of suicide divers armed with explosives. Add to this the standard mines and other crud and its going to be hell getting to the beach. At Normandy the allies used demolition teams to take out large amount of defensive obstacles ... the Japanese knew this (having debriefed the Germans) and had hidden/submersed fighters with orders to kill the demolition squads. At Normandy these units suffered 40-60% casualties ... and that was just from machine gun nests on the shore. On the one beach where the ships had to actually run a somewhat intact obstacle course ... Juno was not a pretty sight.

So all that is JUST to get to the damn beech. Once you are on the beech life is still hell. In Normandy the Germans relied heavily on Ost troops (caputered Soviets and Pols forced to fight at gunpoint), they surrendered "readily", except of course at Omaha beech where the 352nd held and surrendered much slower. Now compare this to the Japanese who might not have literally fought to the last man, but certainly would come closer than bloody ENEMY CONSCRIPTS.

So let's say the Americans gain the beeches, unlike Normandy and the Pacific, the invaders are not going to outnumber the defenders in the local vicinity. Facing the entire assualt force would be Japanese force of equal number. Total odds at Kyushu would be 3:2 Japan, compared to ealier pacific battles which were fought 2:1 or even 3:1 American. So the Japanese would have better odds with a unified command structure (which COMPLETELY screwed the Germans) and no French Resistance to aid the allies.

Then there is of course the fun tricks the Japanese had: breaking into allied communications lines to divert artillerly, prepositioned heavy artillerly (some on rail cars that could fire, retreat into a steel reinforced cave, and then come back out to fire again, spider holes filled with special troops, and of course the 28 million strong National Volunteer Combat Force.

Official US military casuality estimates were CRAP. The underestimated the enemy on numerous occassions, force instance how much of the Japanese army remained in Manchuria. They were built off assuming Normandy (or at best Pacific island) casualties. All told Normandy is going to look piss easy. Hitler had a longer coastline and he thought they were hitting Pas de Calais. The German army was not allowed to commit to the beach and the Germans couldn't go all or nothing on the Western Front. The Japanese could. They knew where the Americans would land (and when), and there would be no deception. 65,000 dead is LAUGHABLY PATHETIC, the expanded kamikaze corps targeting transports and landing craft would easily have gone up and over that number.

[HemlockGrey]

Which, all in all, is a fairly good argument for crisping the cities.

[Typhonis 1]

Something else to consider why some feel Dec 7 is a day of imfamy We were conducting peace talks with the Japaneese when they attacked Pearl Harbor .