Do very sexual women turn you off??

[Zaia]

Hey, I fully admit that myself and other guys like attractive girls, but I expect the same out of women, instead of the same tired lines about caring more about intelligence and personality and all that, which are good and fine in thoery, but fall apart at mach 5 in practice.

Fuck that. They aren't just "the same tired lines about caring more about intelligence and personality." Not to me. I've introduced a number of the guys I've been attracted to in the past to my friends--after the meeting, I would always gush, "So what did you think? Isn't he amazing? He's just gorgeous!" and my chick friends would say, "Yeah, he was really funny, obviously smart and lots of fun. My first impression of him was that he was just ok--not incredibly attractive but not repulsive either. Once he started making jokes, though--yeah, I can totally see what you see in him. He's a cutie." That's practically a direct quote from when my best friend met Brian.

What you aren't getting is that someone with a good heart, a great sense of humour and more than six brain cells BECOMES gorgeous because of those traits. It isn't a fucking 'theory,' ok? It's the real deal, so stop telling me that I'm essentially a liar because I'm not. I don't say something and practice something else.

I don't know how old you are, nor do I know the ages of the women you chase. If your personal experience lends itself to the conclusions you've drawn, I am sorry that you have had such experiences. But I tell you that I myself am nothing like your stereotype.

[RedImperator]

Hey now, my comment was more of an expression of frustration than anything. I KNOW I have a bad habit of chasing girls that are out of my league, which is totally my fault. At any rate, all my relationships have been with the, "Well, he's not much to look at, but he's funny," types, so I do know what you're talking about Zaia.

[Gil Hamilton]

Fuck that. They aren't just "the same tired lines about caring more about intelligence and personality." Not to me. I've introduced a number of the guys I've been attracted to in the past to my friends--after the meeting, I would always gush, "So what did you think? Isn't he amazing? He's just gorgeous!" and my chick friends would say, "Yeah, he was really funny, obviously smart and lots of fun. My first impression of him was that he was just ok--not incredibly attractive but not repulsive either. Once he started making jokes, though--yeah, I can totally see what you see in him. He's a cutie." That's practically a direct quote from when my best friend met Brian.

What you aren't getting is that someone with a good heart, a great sense of humour and more than six brain cells BECOMES gorgeous because of those traits. It isn't a fucking 'theory,' ok? It's the real deal, so stop telling me that I'm essentially a liar because I'm not. I don't say something and practice something else.

I don't know how old you are, nor do I know the ages of the women you chase. If your personal experience lends itself to the conclusions you've drawn, I am sorry that you have had such experiences. But I tell you that I myself am nothing like your stereotype.

Sorry I hit a sore spot there, but it's just the observations of the majority of the female population I've been around. I can't count on both hands the number of times I've heard a girl talk about humor and personality be the most important factor in a relationship, then bring around a completely blank-faced slab of meat that looks good when there are ten other guys within striking distance that have more personality in their left foot. This does not reflect directly on you, as you are a bit more exceptional than the average girl. But without mincing words, it's a very common trend for women of my age (which is 21), even extraordinary nice ones, to fall for the knuckleheads that look good and confident because of it and "bad boys", rather than the ones who are actually relationship material. And even if said knucklehead treats them like trash, half the time they go right back to them. Once again, I stress that this isn't all girls, but it is a suprisingly large amount. Sure, many grow out of it, but it's enough to give the guys who've got the good heart and personality fits, and that's the truth.

Now, I got lucky. I met the girl I'm currently with in my freshman year in highschool and started dating her the next year, so I avoided the large mess that some of my male friends have stumbled into. They had all the personality, good heart, and wit and it landed them straight in the Friends Zone with the majority of the girls. But I will tell you that girls did start responding to me alot better when I lost a bit of inches and bulked up a bit musclewise.

Of course, I'm just calling it like I see it. But what do I know? I'm just another clueless guy.

[Kelly Antilles]

*shakes head as her previous post just goes over EVERYONE'S head*

[aerius]

If it weren't for the very sexual women who showed me the ways of the world in 1st year university, I'd likely still be a virgin, and so I thank them for devirginizing me. Back then I was shameless, if she was hot and wanted to sleep with me, no problem, my room's available for use anytime. Sex was new to me and I just wanted as much of it as I could get.

I grew out of that phase after about a year and got into the relationship thing, at which point those chicks I was sleeping with before weren't so desirable anymore, don't know how that happened though. I started going after the cute cuddly ones instead of the hot in your face types and it worked out well for the most part. Nowadays I've settled into a longer term relationship, and while I'll still go "Nice!! She's hot!" upon spotting a hottie while out with my buddies, I feel no urge to go hit on and try to score with her.

[Shaka[Zulu]]

Zaia's quote snipped...

Except that is the a lie. In my experience, the majority of women don't get into a relationship with any speed faster than continental drift without being physically attracted to the guy and I can site the countless times I've seen women (and not airheads either) go for the handsome dumbass rather than the all-around-decent-guy-who-isn't-cute. The case that spells this out comes to mind is a pair I know who are best friend and are practically joined at the hip personality wise, but she won't have anything to do with him in a relationship (which drives him nuts and causes him to bitch no end). Why? She may appreciate his humor, personality, and intelligence, but she isn't attracted to him and will go straight for a cute chucklehead rather than him, even though he'd be a vastly more attentive boyfriend IMHO. Yeah, they will get into relationships who are less attractive, but only after knowing them a good time, and moving at speeds that are dusted by your average tortoise.

Really, the majority of women around my age with a bit of tolerance don't want an intelligent witty funnyman. Those are bonuses, but rarely a requirement. On the contrary, they seem to want a confidant and handsome fellow much more, and will tend to chose them over the guys who would be likely much better for them, even when said handsome confidant guy is an utter asshole. Maybe in the few years, but not now. Likewise, guys my age do have a legitimate complaint, given the attitude of your average gal.

Gil, you have no idea just how accurate you are on this point -- sorry Zaia & all the other ladies of SD.net, but you have to understand that women such as yourselves are not the rule, but the (exceedingly rare) exception, and you tend to attract the company of women who are also exceptions (or who might be with a bit of gentle prodding... no pun intended).

As support for Gil's point, I can provide my own observations of female behavior -- and I have a great deal more of it considering I am 32 years old. Ever since high school I have fallen rather solidly into that notorious 'friends' bin that women tend to lump the smart, funny, attentive, all-around 'nice', but not physically 'cute' into. This is not merely true of me, as many of my friends fall into the same boat. In the meantime I have quietly watched as countless numbers of female 'friends' quite literally bounced from one guy to another to another for no more reason than 'he's cute (physically)'... while simutaneously going 'eeewww' every time I would try to make myself more than a 'friend' blip on their radar -- dont laugh it's actually happened! As a result of this, I have been in only one potentially serious relationship since HS, and for all the time we spent together -- for all that she said she loved me -- she went and gave her virginity to some guy she met in puerto rico while we were seeing each other... a confession that ruined it. I suppose she meant that she loved me platonically, but it sure didnt seem that way.


they come to me for friendship
they come to me for help
but when it comes to being more
they come to me for naught

yes, I know... bad poetry, but true.

[Zaia]

*shakes head as her previous post just goes over EVERYONE'S head*

Everyone? Me too?

[Shaka[Zulu]]

Fuck that. They aren't just "the same tired lines about caring more about intelligence and personality." Not to me. I've introduced a number of the guys I've been attracted to in the past to my friends--after the meeting, I would always gush, "So what did you think? Isn't he amazing? He's just gorgeous!" and my chick friends would say, "Yeah, he was really funny, obviously smart and lots of fun. My first impression of him was that he was just ok--not incredibly attractive but not repulsive either. Once he started making jokes, though--yeah, I can totally see what you see in him. He's a cutie." That's practically a direct quote from when my best friend met Brian.

I hate to say it Zaia, but you might have been misreading your friend's opinion. In my experience, there is is high probability indicated that she/they was/were telling you that for the sake of diplomacy (assuming that this Brian is someone you were involved with), and was/were in actuality doing everything she/they could (covertly) to keep herself/themselves from puking... people can be incredibly 2-faced that way. the totally was the most substantial tipoff.

What you aren't getting is that someone with a good heart, a great sense of humour and more than six brain cells BECOMES gorgeous because of those traits. It isn't a fucking 'theory,' ok? It's the real deal, so stop telling me that I'm essentially a liar because I'm not. I don't say something and practice something else.

hmmm... I dont think he did any such thing, but I think I need to say that georgeous isnt a term one usually uses to allude to inner traits... neither are 'cute' or 'hot' for that matter. Beautifulor attractive, however, can be used in either context.

Sorry I hit a sore spot there, but it's just the observations of the majority of the female population I've been around. I can't count on both hands the number of times I've heard a girl talk about humor and personality be the most important factor in a relationship, then bring around a completely blank-faced slab of meat that looks good when there are ten other guys within striking distance that have more personality in their left foot. This does not reflect directly on you, as you are a bit more exceptional than the average girl. But without mincing words, it's a very common trend for women of my age (which is 21), even extraordinary nice ones, to fall for the knuckleheads that look good and confident because of it and "bad boys", rather than the ones who are actually relationship material. And even if said knucklehead treats them like trash, half the time they go right back to them. Once again, I stress that this isn't all girls, but it is a suprisingly large amount. Sure, many grow out of it, but it's enough to give the guys who've got the good heart and personality fits, and that's the truth.

Now, I got lucky. I met the girl I'm currently with in my freshman year in highschool and started dating her the next year, so I avoided the large mess that some of my male friends have stumbled into. They had all the personality, good heart, and wit and it landed them straight in the Friends Zone with the majority of the girls. But I will tell you that girls did start responding to me alot better when I lost a bit of inches and bulked up a bit musclewise.

Of course, I'm just calling it like I see it. But what do I know? I'm just another clueless guy.

far from clueless my friend... far from. Some of the general theories I have come to over the years through my careful observations would not go over well with most women, regardless of wether the theories are accurate in their predictions or not.

[Knife]

Damn, I hate comming in late to these types of threads. Ok;


Acacia, to your original post; sexually expressive women are a turn on. However, there is a line there some where there where expression turns to flaunting and that is where I think that alot of guys are having their problems with.

Nobody likes stereotypes but they are sterotypes because enough people conformed to them to support the notion.

Personally (like most men) good looks attract me. Personality will keep me (ask my wife ) and sex is the cherry on top (all sorts of puns intended). Timing and moderation is everything, I want my wife to be expressive yet don't want her to flaunt it. Lots of people have commented about how expressive the wife and I are, yet we don't make public displays.

Z, I love you to pieces hon but you have to remember the general age group around here. Alot of memebers are suffering through the High School Years and their view (rightly or wrongly) are tainted by petty high school politics. Besides, most of the male views have been on the superficial level. Little has been said of the more envolved relationships and the stereotypes mentioned in the disscusions above, are accurate for the casual incident on the bar scene or prom or parties ect...

Kelly, I agree. It was a hoot for three pages.

Innerbrat, I agree with you. I think.

Whew, I think I covered everything I wanted to say...........

[Spanky The Dolphin]

This doesn't have much to do with the current discussion but:

There is a fine line between a woman who is sexually open and a woman who is simply a whore...

[Knife]

This doesn't have much to do with the current discussion but:

There is a fine line between a woman who is sexually open and a woman who is simply a whore...

Actually, IMO, there is a huge line between the two. My deal is that there is a line between being sexualy expressive, open, and curious and overcompensating and flaunting what one never intends to give or will only give for superficial reasons and calling it sexually open, expressive, what ever.

[Zaia]

I hate to say it Zaia, but you might have been misreading your friend's opinion. In my experience, there is is high probability indicated that she/they was/were telling you that for the sake of diplomacy (assuming that this Brian is someone you were involved with), and was/were in actuality doing everything she/they could (covertly) to keep herself/themselves from puking... people can be incredibly 2-faced that way. the totally was the most substantial tipoff.

Seeing as that comment came from my best friend of twelve years, I know she meant what she said. If she hadn't found him attractive, she would have said so. On the contrary, she told me that she caught herself flirting with him for a second toward the end of the night, but of course stopped immediately once she realized what she was doing. So, sorry to disappoint you, but neither my best friend nor I are two-faced that way.

hmmm... I dont think he did any such thing, but I think I need to say that georgeous isnt a term one usually uses to allude to inner traits... neither are 'cute' or 'hot' for that matter. Beautifulor attractive, however, can be used in either context.

Jumpin' Jiminy Christ, I use the word gorgeous because I like how it sounds. I use it to allude to both inner and outer beauty--of course, I use a number of other adjectives as well. I try to use the word 'gorgeous' and other equally superlative adjectives as often as I can to describe people who otherwise might be classified (on looks) as "meh, ok" by the rest of the world. People like to feel good about themselves, and I simply adore making people smile, so what better way is there to do both?

But in case you don't believe me:

gor·geous (P) Pronunciation Key (gôrjs)
adj.

1.a. Dazzlingly beautiful or magnificent: wore a gorgeous Victorian gown.
b. Characterized by magnificence or virtuosic brilliance: the pianist's gorgeous technique.

2. Informal. Wonderful; delightful.

Were you trying to imply that, because I used a word you assumed only refered to exterior qualities that I was secretly the type of girl that's only interested in meatheaded lunkheads?

What I said is that someone BECOMES gorgeous--meaning that they look more attractive: yes, I wrote LOOK--when you get to know them better. Assuming they have a personality, of course. The entire package of body, smile, personality, style, smell--whatever the fuck you want to list, but EVERYTHING about that person--becomes more appealing because that person is more appealing. As a whole person, not merely as a sexual object.

Of course, I'm just calling it like I see it. But what do I know? I'm just another clueless guy.

far from clueless my friend... far from. Some of the general theories I have come to over the years through my careful observations would not go over well with most women, regardless of wether the theories are accurate in their predictions or not.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiight. Go ahead, share some of these theories. Please.

[Zaia]

Z, I love you to pieces hon but you have to remember the general age group around here. Alot of memebers are suffering through the High School Years and their view (rightly or wrongly) are tainted by petty high school politics. Besides, most of the male views have been on the superficial level. Little has been said of the more envolved relationships and the stereotypes mentioned in the disscusions above, are accurate for the casual incident on the bar scene or prom or parties ect...

Yes, yes, I know...*grumbles* I just have that delusional thought in my head that I'll get through to someone and they'll see the double-standard they've issued. *shakes head*

Forget it, you're right, I should just forget it...

Innerbrat, I agree with you. I think.

Sweet! She said she agreed completely with me!

This doesn't have much to do with the current discussion but:

There is a fine line between a woman who is sexually open and a woman who is simply a whore...

Um, wow, Spanky, that hurts. A fine line? I would disagree heartily, since I consider myself sexually open and not anywhere close to being a whore.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Oh God, I'm sorry. I think that I might have used the wrong type of language back there. I didn't mean for it to come out so harsh or insulting.

What I meant was something similar to Knife's concept, that the two ideas are very seperate from each other but still share a slight connection. That there is a distinct line of separation between the two even though they are distantly similar to each other, because they have different characteristics. Basically, my line is a little bit finer then his is, but it is more like an either/or switch.

I'm really sorry, Zaia. I didn't mean for you to interpret that into that I was calling you a whore. I'm very sorry, dear, please forgive my slip in language.

EDIT: Shit, maybe I should just go to bed now...

[Edi]

I find it interesting that some of you assume that you or your parents can tell if someone is sexually free by appearence.

If you're referring to my post, I'll be asking you to provide me the direct quote where I said you can tell sexual openness by appearance. Just to clarify, I said it's easy to tell the sluts apart from the sexually open decent girls, but appearance is definitely not a factor there. It actually requires talking to them and spending (a case-by-case variable amount of) time with them. E.g. a couple of those friends I mentioned who were in the latter category, they weren't shy about themselves or anything, and they were nothing like the couple of examples of the other sort I met.

Let's see, one time at a nightclub I ask this good-looking chick to dance a slow one with me, and after a very brief consultation with her friend, she agrees. About ten seconds into the song, she was asking me to be a lot more forward with her than I'd ever dream of being with someone I'd just met (like groping her breasts and stuff like that) and being very friendly. Well, because she asked, I didn't have any objections really, but then suddenly she began pulling me towards the center of the throng, and I asked what was wrong with where we were. The answer: "So my boyfriend won't see us." Talk about a turnoff there. I had some trouble picking my jaw up off the floor after that revelation.
The second case was one of my current girlfriend's high school classmates, who was truly one of the spread them for anyone, anytime anywhere types. My gf had had to listen to her recount quite enough of her adventures, and knew what crowd she was going with, and the few times I met this girl, her behavior was exactly like that.

Is this an example of the fallacy that a woman who indulges her urges is cheap and easy and looks used? This along with the erroneous assumption that sexual freedom automatically means commitment issues and a propensity for infidelity is quite sad to me. Men do not get these presuppostitions heaped upon them based on their sexual experience.

I don't subscribe to that. I actually agree with you that it's pathetic, and the double standard annoys me too.

Personally, I base my liasons on personal chemistry more than looks. Of course, like anyone else, a filthy, oily, smelly person will most likely be avoided. Some of my best experiences have been with intelligent, witty and attentive types as opposed to extremely attractive yet somewhat vapid sorts who know they are good looking and depend on it for everything. Personality can really tip the balance for a man.

And as pointed out by a couple of people here already, don't I wish that were universal. I've been told (by several different women) that I'm intelligent, attentive, nice and wonderful, and despite pretty good personal chemistry, that landed me squarely in the "just friends" category every time while they had relationships with a varying success rate, some absolutely disastrous. And as conceited as it may sound, I'm not bad-looking either. Not that I'd be in any danger of winning any prizes for being handsome or anything, but neither am I an eyesore.

What you aren't getting is that someone with a good heart, a great sense of humour and more than six brain cells BECOMES gorgeous because of those traits. It isn't a fucking 'theory,' ok? It's the real deal, so stop telling me that I'm essentially a liar because I'm not. I don't say something and practice something else.

Hey, no need to jump down people's throats, Zaia. Nobody is suggesting you are, but there are enough of those types around to ensure that the stereotype perpetuates itself. You're a real special lady, and like somebody already pointed out, that kind of people tend to attract others of the same sort. I've been lucky in the sense that most of my female friends are like that, instead of airheads, but if you want a perfect example of the stereotype, my sister is one. She's gorgeous, and always complaining about there being no decent guys around, but she couldn't recognize one if her life depended on it. I don't know what it is with her, but every single one of her boyfriends has been a no-good, conceited, rotten moron. Well, not the last one, he was nice enough, but that fell apart for other reasons.

And just so you know, despite us guys often placing such an inordinate amount of importance on looks, that thing about good heart, sense of humour and brains you just said works for us too.

Edi

[Shaka[Zulu]]

my quote snipped

Seeing as that comment came from my best friend of twelve years, I know she meant what she said. If she hadn't found him attractive, she would have said so. On the contrary, she told me that she caught herself flirting with him for a second toward the end of the night, but of course stopped immediately once she realized what she was doing. So, sorry to disappoint you, but neither my best friend nor I are two-faced that way.

damn, Z... I can see you are intent on taking everything out of context today arent you? did I at any time say for certain that EITHER of you were that way? NO. I merely stated that the probability was high that she was being diplomatic... In fact, given the fact that you've known each other for 12 years, you have to at least recognize the possibility that the probabilities just got higher that diplomacy to maintain the relationship did play a part... given that such a long term friendship carries with it a far higher emotional potential than say a friendship of just a few years. the fact that the two of you have been able to maintain such a friendship speaks volumes about both of your respective abilities in sincere diplomacy.

yes I just gave you a compliment... I did earlier as well, as did Gil...I sincerely hope you see it.

snipped again.

Jumpin' Jiminy Christ, I use the word gorgeous because I like how it sounds. I use it to allude to both inner and outer beauty--of course, I use a number of other adjectives as well. I try to use the word 'gorgeous' and other equally superlative adjectives as often as I can to describe people who otherwise might be classified (on looks) as "meh, ok" by the rest of the world. People like to feel good about themselves, and I simply adore making people smile, so what better way is there to do both?

But in case you don't believe me:

gor·geous (P) Pronunciation Key (gôrjs)
adj.

1.a. Dazzlingly beautiful or magnificent: wore a gorgeous Victorian gown.
b. Characterized by magnificence or virtuosic brilliance: the pianist's gorgeous technique.

2. Informal. Wonderful; delightful.

Were you trying to imply that, because I used a word you assumed only refered to exterior qualities that I was secretly the type of girl that's only interested in meatheaded lunkheads?

ugh... once again you have ignored my context. I did not assume that the term 'gorgeous' only referred to exterior qualities. I stated that the word is not usually used to describe inner traits. in fact, both the 1a and 1b dictionary definitions you provided support my point, as they both refer to external traits, granted ones that were produced by internal skills -- ie the gown is beautiful because of the skill of it's designer. definition 2 merely serves to widen the term's applicability to anything that generates the appropriate emotional responses. In common usage however, the word gorgeous is rarely if ever used to describe inner traits.

What I said is that someone BECOMES gorgeous--meaning that they look more attractive: yes, I wrote LOOK--when you get to know them better. Assuming they have a personality, of course. The entire package of body, smile, personality, style, smell--whatever the fuck you want to list, but EVERYTHING about that person--becomes more appealing because that person is more appealing. As a whole person, not merely as a sexual object.

That you think that way merely makes you more... dare I say it... gorgeous! but unfortunately it also means that you are even farther removed (ie special) from the average woman than I first thought. Yes... another compliment....

snipped again

Riiiiiiiiiiiiight. Go ahead, share some of these theories. Please.[/quote]

Z, when you come to me ready and willing to invest the time as a detached, uninvolved and objective observer (think of yourself as a scientist observing animals in the wild, seeking to do so without them ever knowing you are there and you'll get my meaning), and not as an adversary with only the disproof of the theories on her mind, I would be most joyful in sharing them with you. To tell you now would only invite contaminants into the observations and the subsequent conclusions. Come to think of it, when you do put the adversary mindset aside, you will be halfway to where I am now on this issue. I look forward to it.

[Edi]

Shaka, I suggest you just drop it, you're displaying exceptionally clear symptoms of the foot-in-mouth disease, and I think I can safely bet that Zaia won't be all that happy when she reads your latest reply. If that had been addressed to me regarding my friendships, I'd have flamed you to a cinder, it is that insulting. It might not be intended that way, but that's the way it comes across.

Edi

[Shaka[Zulu]]

Ok... Ill consider it dropped, but how exactly was it insulting? I honestly would like to know, as I definitely didnt intend it that way... I was only trying to look at it objectively.

[Edi]

The part where you start talking about the diplomacy in friendships in the context of Zaia's 12 year friendship with her best friend gives the impression that you consider it (or perhaps long-standing friendships in general, I don't know) so fragile that they have to dance around subjects like this in order to avoid giving offense. That's a surefire way to seriously piss people off.

My longest friendship is one that has lasted almost 22 years and I've got other friends I've known for between 1 and 10 years who are just as important to me. And with all of them, the deal is that they're allowed to fire at will, point blank, any subject, and say exactly what they think, even if they know it's precisely what I don't want to hear. I'll actually be more offended if they dance around and avoid saying what they really think.

What Zaia describes of her friendship above, seems to be exactly this type of thing, especially after she went to more length about it (that's my thoughts anyway, undoubtedly she'll correct me if I'm wrong), and that's what makes what you said so offensive. Not only do you not know her personally, much less her friend, but you also presume to contradict her after she explicitly stated what the deal is. If some stranger just appeared out of nowhere to tell me that my friendships were in reality utterly different from what they are and claim that they are so fragile I can't even truly speak my mind to my friends, they'll get a very harsh welcome and very short shrift, to put it mildly. As I see it, you've done exactly this to Zaia, and if she's hopping mad because of it, I really don't blame her.

Edi

[Kelly Antilles]

*shakes head as her previous post just goes over EVERYONE'S head*

Everyone? Me too?

No offense, but especially you.

Perhaps you need to listen to your own advice for once.

[Vympel]

I'm really glad I posted in this thread in a manner that couldn't possibly be construed as a double standard in any way shape or form. TM.

[Superman]

Do sexual women turn me on? If you define "sexual" as stacked and Asian, then hell yes they do!

[Zaia]

No offense, but especially you.

Perhaps you need to listen to your own advice for once.

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about, Kel, so feel free to enlighten me, either here or over PM, please.

[SirNitram]

Excuse me, but I just had to say that I think the double standards that are coming out today are really funny.

Double standards are the biggest reason I stand by my opinion that the vast majority of humanity is a bunch of superficial idiots.

Of course, this could be a double standards towards myself...

[Lagmonster]

Excuse me, but I just had to say that I think the double standards that are coming out today are really funny.

Nah. I can't imagine that it's a surprise - everyone has double standards. I'm willing to bet that in judging any action, we all have a grey area where we would act, but wouldn't justify others in acting. Or vice versa. 'Course, with a little sitting down and thinking about it, we can get over it.

And again, some people are more obvious about it, or have a wider spectrum of grey in any situation from which judge.