Hyperion's Dog-hating Thread

Andrew J. · Post by **Andrew J.** » 2002-10-08 03:55pm

Kelly Antilles wrote:I have four ferrets (had 6, but two have passed away within the past 8 months. ) and I love them! They're great pets. Granted, you have to get them past the biting stage, but they think that's playing.

I once saw a kid with a ferret on a leash in an outdoor ice cream place. It was one of the damndest things I've ever seen.

Doomriser · Post by **Doomriser** » 2002-10-08 04:13pm

Seriously, Darth Wong, I think you're backing yourself into a corner, and indefensible position. Cats CAN'T LEARN? Anything? At all? Not:
-their name
-the sound of the food bell as opposed to other sounds (my cats know it)
-toilet training
-procedures for entering/exiting the house
-opening doors (I've seen it done)
-to not attack humans

Some cats are smarter than others and demonstrate more abilities.
I agree that cats aren't as trainable as dogs and that they don't exhibit as much intelligence as it is defined. But to say that they CAN'T LEARN ANYTHING is a bit of a stretch. Some cats can be taught the odd trick, surely you've seen them on "I can't believe..." T.V. shows, but it is not in their disposition to perform repeatedly for the benefit of their human "masters" even if a rare few do learn a trick.

Cats and dogs are different animals and have to be appreciated for their different capabilities. I don't expect my cat to drag me out of a river (though I don't see how a little yippy dog could either) but I do expect it to decimate harmful rodents.

victorhadin · Post by **victorhadin** » 2002-10-08 04:31pm

He never said they couldn't learn, except recently which I can only assume was a hasty generalisation. On average they are shit at learning simply because they do not make connections and do not respond to this. This may be due to their solitary nature, but it still degrades their problem-solcing abilities in this area.

Hyperion · Post by **Hyperion** » 2002-10-08 04:41pm

it's been my observation that cats can't be bothered to learn anything they DON'T WANT TO.

btw, cats make one hell of a fire alarm...

if one looks at a cat's hunting tactics and abilities, that is something vastly superior to a dog (yes, i know i just popped open another can of worms), i've had over 10 cats in my lifetime, each one tends to develop their own hunting style and tactics and they're fun to watch doing this.

as for the cats, earlier wong said that the cat was only coming to sound, so i tried something, she can not only distinguish between her name, nicknames, and emotion-tone in my voice (judging by her differant and repeated responces to each test), she can also discern the names of the other cats if they're called as well as their nicknames (which they ignore or just stop and glare at you), she also reacts differantly to the sound of the family settling down to eat, the fridge opening, and the can opener.

the damn dog will only come about 1 in 10 times when he's called, and at dinner he just walks in and begs, the cat(s) gets on someone's lap, then jumps on the table, grabs something and runs (and is promptly chased by the dog, which get's swatted) and yes, 3 of 7 do this.

victorhadin · Post by **victorhadin** » 2002-10-08 04:43pm

Hyperion; whether it doesn't want to or just doesn't comprehend the concept the cat is still loathe to learn, i.e its learning capacity is inferior to a dog's, i.e it is less intelligent.

It is a fairly simple line of deduction.

As for hunting, you will notice that dogs are pack hunters, hence their predisposition towards learning to communicate, which is necessary for them.

Hyperion · Post by **Hyperion** » 2002-10-08 04:53pm

dogs communicate via scent VH, that's been proven.

the fact the dogs revert to pack animals indicates a major failing in the intelligence department.

a cat can learn MUCH easier and faster than a dog, i've observed this many times, but the key is making them think they NEED to learn what you're teaching them. a cat's mind is more versatile from what i've seen, they handle change much better than a dog, they adapt faster, and they seem to reason things out faster.

a prime example of the intelligence differance would be that a cat can survive indefinately if it is alone and away from people (barring the few true purebreed housecats, which i personally don't like) wheras a single dog will die if it can't get hold of carrion or garbage.

example: when was the last time you saw a feral dog actually walk up to someone's house and try to get let in, and NOT just run around the house scaring the crap out of things and getting into the trashcans and stuff? i never have. whereas we have one cat which is a true feral cat which just one day decided to come to the door and get let in, he's probably the best of the cats we have, as near we can tell he reasoned that the other cats go in and out of the house unmolested and never worry about food, so he gave it a try and found it correct, then stayed. and yes, my family is pretty sure we've caught him actually thinking on how to figure something out, he acts like he's analyzing stuff.

even my doglover mom, who could give wong a run for it on rabidity has many times on her own said that cats show more intelligence just by the fact they think, learn, and reason on their own and don't need to be commanded to do things. though i will admit that a cat is nearly impossible to train unless you know how to do it. (and it took forever to figure out)

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-08 04:58pm

Doomriser wrote:Seriously, Darth Wong, I think you're backing yourself into a corner, and indefensible position. Cats CAN'T LEARN? Anything? At all?

Don't be silly. Their intelligence is lower than dogs. But you can't literally believe that I think it's zero. They can learn some things, and they're better than dogs at toilet training, although that's a special case because dogs really want to do their business on trees, fire hydrants, etc. But dogs can learn more skills, and more importantly, much more complex and unnatural skills.

We compare them the way we would a learning-disabled child and a normal child. A learning-disabled child can still learn some things, and he may even learn particular skills at a normal rate. But he won't learn a lot of things, and he won't learn them quickly.

PS. Hyperion, again, most of your arguments against dog intelligence could be easily applied to humans. We're still pack animals by nature. We have trouble surviving if suddenly thrust into the wild. Etc. We need to be educated. I've made this point before; you keep bringing up arguments which, if accepted, would render humans less intelligent than cats. Cats have certain natural skills, and seem to be able to pick up a handful of other skills under the tutelage of humans. But show me a seeing-eye cat as proof of your unsupported claims of superior learning ability, and I will be convinced. Until then, you're just blowing a lot of hot air.

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-10-08 05:00pm

Dogs learn skills to serve and amuse us. While cats generally don't.
That's like saying a slave is more intelligent than a free person by virtue of learning to be a slave.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-08 05:03pm

Evil Jerk wrote:Dogs learn skills to serve and amuse us.
That's like saying a slave is more intelligent than a free person by virtue of learning to be a slave.

Employees learn skills to serve their employers. Gee, I guess we're all dumber than cats! I can't believe people cling to this bizarre anti-learning logic. Face it; if you can't learn, you aren't intelligent, whether you're a cat or a human.

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-10-08 05:05pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Evil Jerk wrote:Dogs learn skills to serve and amuse us.
That's like saying a slave is more intelligent than a free person by virtue of learning to be a slave.
Employees learn skills to serve their employers. Gee, I guess we're all dumber than cats! I can't believe people cling to this bizarre anti-learning logic. Face it; if you can't learn, you aren't intelligent, whether you're a cat or a human.

There's a difference between can't and won't.
Dogs, being pack animals, are more likely to co-operate with humans than cats who do their own thing.

Andrew J. · Post by **Andrew J.** » 2002-10-08 05:06pm

Darth Wong wrote:Employees learn skills to serve their employers. Gee, I guess we're all dumber than cats! I can't believe people cling to this bizarre anti-learning logic. Face it; if you can't learn, you aren't intelligent, whether you're a cat or a human.

Maybe cant's just don't want to learn.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-10-08 05:16pm

learn or adapt?

victorhadin · Post by **victorhadin** » 2002-10-08 05:19pm

Hyperion wrote:dogs communicate via scent VH, that's been proven.

the fact the dogs revert to pack animals indicates a major failing in the intelligence department.

1) Yes. They also communicate verbally and using body language... and by gum, so do we!
So do cats.
So do birds.
So do black phantom tretras.

What is your point?

2) No. The fact they use pack hunting techniques is the catalyst for their improved abilities in learning and communication. Cats have never needed them in their own niche and so never evolved them in the same way dogs do.

'revert to pack animals indicates a major failing in the intelligence department.'

Really. Who do you think you are trying to fool by swapping words over and saying things like 'revert'? It's not as if wolfkind held a conference one day and thought "well we're cack at hunting alone against these sodding great deer/ bison/ what-have-you. Since we have agreed on being so crap we will have to team up."

Get this through your thick skull:

The fact that dogs are better communicators and learn from each other (and by connection, us) much faster and better is because of their pack-hunting heritage.

If cats were the pack hunters and dogs the solitary ambush predators it would be the other way around and cats would probably be the more intelligent.

However it didn't happen that way.

Get over it mate: by every reasonable standard of intelligence as a capacity for learning dogs beat cats paws-down.

victorhadin · Post by **victorhadin** » 2002-10-08 05:22pm

Incidentally, goldfish and similar fish have been trained before in laboratories to press a switch in the tank when a green light shows to collect a mealworm to eat.

Now by this logic, since they can do this one-off thing in special circumstances, they don't find learning a hard-to-grasp concept at all; they merely don't want to be trained and so can be seen as more intelligent than dogs as dogs are merely 'programmed'.

I mean, come-on. Do you really believe your own crap, Hyperion?

Sothis · Post by **Sothis** » 2002-10-08 05:31pm

Cats can be affectionate creatures (even without the aid of food- one cat next door seems to absolutely love me), but compare a cat to the loyalty of a dog, to the fun of running with the dog, of those big melty soulful eyes, that delightful way they can cock their head...

Will say though, that a friend's dog tried to be a bit too friendly one night me and a bunch of friends stayed there. It kept pumping it's hips at the air

It seemed to find my hand facinating as well. We tried locking him in the kitchen, but he cried and howled, so we had to let him back in. He also devoured a pork pie (a big one) in more or less one bite the following morning. I've never seen a pork pie disappear that fast

Anyway, I've wandered off topic- cats can be cute and cuddly (had a cat called Missy for a time, friendly and affectionate, if timid), but a dog has the edge, for me at least.

Sothis · Post by **Sothis** » 2002-10-08 05:37pm

Someone mentioned earlier in the thread (dammit, can't find the exact post, might have been another thread), that a dog's pack behaviour reflected badly on dogs, or words to that effect. I have to disagree. Humans, whilst not exactly engaging in pack behaviour, DO prefer to be in social groups rather than being on our own. We feel the need to 'belong' to a group, just as dogs feel the need to 'belong' to a pack. That's probably one of the reasons that humans and dogs get along so well. We both want to 'belong'.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2002-10-09 07:28am

Ferrets are still cool, and can be trained too.

My next door neighbor has two of them ("Stash", and "Rikki")

yes, you definatly have to train them past the biting stage....

victorhadin · Post by **victorhadin** » 2002-10-09 07:57am

Sothis wrote:Someone mentioned earlier in the thread (dammit, can't find the exact post, might have been another thread), that a dog's pack behaviour reflected badly on dogs, or words to that effect. I have to disagree. Humans, whilst not exactly engaging in pack behaviour, DO prefer to be in social groups rather than being on our own. We feel the need to 'belong' to a group, just as dogs feel the need to 'belong' to a pack. That's probably one of the reasons that humans and dogs get along so well. We both want to 'belong'.

Indeed. Chimpanzees, our nearest natural relatives, have been seen to hunt in packs as well and certainly we are social animals that hunt in groups (or did before the advent of the high-powered rifle anyhow). Early man was thought to have hunted mammoths by driving single mammoths over cliffs, using numbers to herd and intimidate them.

It doesn't reflect on us badly that our anscestors did this. It sounds bloody intelligent to me.