the klingons VS modern earth

[TheDarkling]

Bean:
INT. TRANSPORTER

O'Brien is desperately working the controls.

O'BRIEN
(to com)
There's a transformer substation
directly above the chamber she
just entered. It's masking her
signal.


Its a sensor problem not a transporter problem -beaming down is no problem.

We have seen the Ent-D beam past sensor blocking em fields in Descent (and beam up aswell - I would assume they deployed sensor relays or the like)

We see Voy beam around modern LA we see a bird of prey witha very low power transporter beam onto a Navy vessel (The Enterprise) right by the power core.

You assume the transformer was regular powered, we know that the facility that it was located in was powered by fusion so it isnt to hard to suggest it was higher powered than modern transformers.

The only chance Earth has is to go pre industrial and help they can make the occupation not worth the effort - any centralised population, industry or military forces will be begging to get wipped off the face of the earth.

Breaking the army up (and the population) into small communities and using resistance and urban warfare are the way to go but any co-ordinated efforts will be beyond earths ability to mount (I find it unlikely that the US could remain a cohesive whole, a country the size of England (especially since the population density is high) could remain more or less whole but the states will have too many problems to maintain central government.)

You seem to be forgetting that any places with a high desnity in any of the three catergories I have mentioned will get orbital bombardment and that the US doesnt have enough military equipment to hold every single town against the entire Klingon army, other nations will be even worse off - the Klingons can weaken frmo space and choose to only attack when the odds are stacked heavily in their favour .

[NecronLord]

Sod the US anyone who fought against the Klingons would find themselves eating vacuum in short order.

[oberon]

Any modern army trains in hand-to-hand better than the Klings, so even if a Kling did get "on top" of, say, a marine (marine with a stick, marine with a bayonet, marine with bare hands, it doesn't matter. Marines know how to wrestle, and I've never seen any Klings move well enough to overcome a real fighter), he'd find himself relaxing and enjoying the view... from the deck... in about 5 seconds.

[TheDarkling]

While I dont doubt the Klingons could and would (if the had to) use that tactic they would probably prefer something a bit more explosive.

[NecronLord]

This would quickly turn into Mars attacks klingon style.

I wonder what happens when you beam a barrel-full of nails and screws into a soldier

[D.Turtle]

will land troops since they want earth intact not a bombarded ruin.

From this I would gather that they will avoid using massive orbital bombardment.

If large armed forces were dispersed throughout big cities, they will most probably NOT use orbital boombardment.

Many of the tactics that are mentioned here (i.e. using teleporters to teleport people into outer space) have AFAIK never been used in ST.
Have they ever used transporters to drop grenades on enemy troops?
Even if they would use this, it would hardly be an effective way of fighting, because the soldiers would simply SPREAD OUT.
From what I read here, the range and lethalness of ST grenades or mortar rounds is less than what a grenade can do nowadays, and soldiers are trained to spread out in order to avoid taking massive casualties from one grenade.

Do you now how hard it is to get into hand-to-hand range against ANY relatively skilled armed person?
Machine gun emplacements will rip MASSES of Klingons to shreds (700 rounds per minute and more).

Do you know how useless people with swords running around are in battle?
Watch Indiana Jones if you want to see what any person with a gun would do with a guy charging him with a sword.

[TheDarkling]

They arent going to line up and charge the enemy you know - they arent THAT stupid they do have ranged weapons, also from what we saw of the grenades in TOS I have seen them placed at 0.1 KT although the calcs do rely on alot of assumptions apparently.

They also have some form of assault vehicle and possibly mech inf (the Cardies have mech Inf and the klingons carried out a few invasions of their planets).

They could easily take out the major cities and stilll have enough of a slave labour pool, take out the major military bases and so on.

Most people here think th Klingons are going to line up about 500 ms away and run at the earths troops - sorry it isnt going to happen.

Also remember that shuttles and scout BoP's will rule the sky and will be able to take out any problematic enemy holdings.

[Sea Skimmer]

Yes they cant beam past any radiation at all, in shape or form, even background radiation

Background radiation sufficiently weak as to not be a threat to the health of humans has blocked transporters before.

[D.Turtle]

Also remember that shuttles and scout BoP's will rule the sky and will be able to take out any problematic enemy holdings.

How effective would modern AA sites be against shuttles and the like?
(How good are shuttles at absorbing kinetic attacks?)

Most people here think th Klingons are going to line up about 500 ms away and run at the earths troops - sorry it isnt going to happen.

What I meant was the following: Take any city, any crossing, place a few people with normal automatic weapons there, watch klingons try to charge and get blasted to bits. Watch Klingons try to sneak close and get blasted to bits (if you use multiple vantage points, they won't get very close).

Now, you might say: "They'll simply stay off the streets and take the fight house-to-house!"
I'll say: not much easier than to cover a hallway or the like with a machine gun (make 2 holes from a room next to the hallway: one to shoot through, one to see through). Do you have an idea how difficult it is to clear houses even using weapons with which you can hit the guy over a distance greater than HtH? Now imagine having to do the same with a knife or sword, see the problem?

Now you might (and actually did) say: "Well, they don't only use Batleths, they have phasers (or similar), mortars, etc.":
One look at a phaser, and you can easily say that it is USELESS over ranges any bigger than 10-20 meters (A phaser has as bad a form as possible for a weapon).
About phaser rifles: Do Klingons have them? How effective were they?
About mortars & grenades: When were they used? Where did you get that 0.1 kiloton figure from? What was the observed kill radius?

The only chance the Klingons would have in order to invade Earth would be to ally with some faction on earth, and use this faction's troops for invasion and occupation, while using their spaceships for support fire. Klingon troops are useless for any realistic use.

[TheDarkling]

You put it perfectly - the army (Navy and Airforce arent really a factor) would have to positioned in each town (militia would be formed) because tanks and the like would be of very little use - it would basically be urban warfare and sooner or later the humans are going to start running low on supplies when the klingons take control of all the oil wells and destroy the roads and rail.

In the long term the Klingons win with ease but since the Klingons probably wont want to wait we have some ground invasion.

We see photons grenades used in TOS against the Gorn, they cause a light breeze at 1 KM from point of detonation which is a bit more than you get from your average grenade, as for Klingon weapons - they are designed much better than the Feds in respect to the ergonomics of the weapon.

I am forced to consider what will happen when the Klingons wipe out London, New York, DC, Moscow and so on then tell Mudsville that if they dont surrender they will get wiped out too - im betting a fair number of the population will at least consider it (since by this point the village/town is under its own control - nation wide government a thing of the past).

We also dont know if the Klingons have access to personal shields like Fed ground troops do, we dont know the capability of their ground vehicles and our knowledge of their shuttles is very low aswell.

We do know that a Federation craft may have hit the ground at about 600 m/s but Im not to sure abuot that with regard to how mass lightening works (the shuttles power failed so its possible this cause it to slow my a large amount but how large is the question).

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

*slaps head* Why haven't I moved this?

[Mr Bean]

Because I did! Ha! into the wrong place

[Mr Bean]

Now into off-topic it goes agian

[NecronLord]

Try to get this. IF the klingons want to charge in waving their bladed weapons. Then the earthlings WILL NOT HAVE GUNS It is easily within Klingon capacity to transport away refined metals. Remember they had site-to-site transport capacity in ST:4. If they were attacking with Bat'leths then the defenders weapons would be in orbit...

[Lord of the Farce]

Try to get this. IF the klingons want to charge in waving their bladed weapons. Then the earthlings WILL NOT HAVE GUNS It is easily within Klingon capacity to transport away refined metals. Remember they had site-to-site transport capacity in ST:4. If they were attacking with Bat'leths then the defenders weapons would be in orbit...

And then the Klingons will falter and halt in their charge when a unintimidating human stands in front of them and snickers at their lack of honour in needing to resort to cowardly Romulan style tactics in order to defeat a pre-Warp civilisation, LOL

[NecronLord]

Try to get this. IF the klingons want to charge in waving their bladed weapons. Then the earthlings WILL NOT HAVE GUNS It is easily within Klingon capacity to transport away refined metals. Remember they had site-to-site transport capacity in ST:4. If they were attacking with Bat'leths then the defenders weapons would be in orbit...

And then the Klingons will falter and halt in their charge when a unintimidating human stands in front of them and snickers at their lack of honour in needing to resort to cowardly Romulan style tactics in order to defeat a pre-Warp civilisation, LOL

In DS9 one of them admits that as long as they win it's 'honorable'

[phongn]

Three years warning, hrmm...maybe you could get the bomb-pumped X-Ray laser working by then, maybe not. If so, they you might be able to lob some warheads up in space, give them a decent targetting package (maybe based on the EKV?) and see if you can score hits.

[spongyblue]

HOw about we sneeze on them. That'll cut their vaction short.

[Guest]

HOw about we sneeze on them. That'll cut their vaction short.

Noooo... You are thinking of the War of the Worlds.

[Yogi]

I'm assuming that the Klingons have basic knowledge of humans as well.

Step 1) Warp in at the edge of the system. Cloak, and go on impluse to Earth.
Step 2) Begin wiretapping into our conversations. I don't think our encryption techniques are going to work.
Step 3) Begin scanning earth. They know that we have Nukes, so they try to locate as many of them as possible. Also, locate all important military bases.
Step 4) The fun begins. Flood the communications network with massive disinformation. Begin transporting nuclear weapons into space. Starts decent into atmosphere.
Step 5) Fly a BoP to a military installation. Uncloak. Destroy it. Cloak.
Step 6) Lather. Rince. Repeat.
Step 7) Fly a BoP to a major population center. Uncloak. Destroy it. Cloak.
Setp 8) Repeat until planet looks ready. Send down colonization forces while hunting for partisans.

[phongn]

Why wouldn't our encryption techniques work? I doubt that they'll brute-force it, it'd take far too long (and that assumes a baseline of AES 256-bit). It really depends on how good they are at codebreaking - and I don't think they'll have a dedicated crypto team out here.

[Yogi]

Why wouldn't our encryption techniques work? I doubt that they'll brute-force it, it'd take far too long (and that assumes a baseline of AES 256-bit). It really depends on how good they are at codebreaking - and I don't think they'll have a dedicated crypto team out here.

Because at that level of Technology (assuming that Klingon Tech is just a bit inferior to Federation Tech, and Federation Tech is advancing at the same pace as modern human tech) One of their combadges will probably have more computing power than all of Earth (think modern twinked-out Japanese Cell Phone vs. All the Computer Power We Had fifty years ago).

In other words, Universal Translator.

Plus, a Voyager Trichoider was able to hack secured corporate terminals in seconds. The Klingons have all the time in the world.

[phongn]

Even that much computing power isn't capable of brute-forcing a cryptosystem in a reasonable amount of time. For a 256-bit key, there are 2^256 possible combinations - you can't possibly expect me to believe that you can force it that quickly. Even 3DES's 168-bit system would be difficult to break.

Secondly, which episode was it? Sure, you can hack it, but there are other ways of doing it, like guessing common keyphrases (especially for a corporate terminal). Corporate systems tend to have security problems like the above - military systems are generally much more secure with encryption and authentication at all levels.

[Yogi]

Even that much computing power isn't capable of brute-forcing a cryptosystem in a reasonable amount of time. For a 256-bit key, there are 2^256 possible combinations - you can't possibly expect me to believe that you can force it that quickly. Even 3DES's 168-bit system would be difficult to break.

Technology is increasing at an exponential rate. In a few hundred years, you had better beleive it!

Secondly, which episode was it? Sure, you can hack it, but there are other ways of doing it, like guessing common keyphrases (especially for a corporate terminal). Corporate systems tend to have security problems like the above - military systems are generally much more secure with encryption and authentication at all levels.

Future's End. Madman in Los Angeles with a 29th century Federation Shuttlecraft owns a massive corporation. Voyager is trying to get the shuttle back. Janeway punches in a random code, and do it doesn't work. She then points her trichoider at it and presses some buttons. A few seconds later, asterisks begin appearing in the password area. Then she got root acess.

For a better description,
http://www.treknews.com/deltablues/futuresend1.html
http://www.treknews.com/deltablues/futuresend2.html

[phongn]

Even that much computing power isn't capable of brute-forcing a cryptosystem in a reasonable amount of time. For a 256-bit key, there are 2^256 possible combinations - you can't possibly expect me to believe that you can force it that quickly. Even 3DES's 168-bit system would be difficult to break.

Technology is increasing at an exponential rate. In a few hundred years, you had better beleive it![/b]

There are ~1e77 possible combinations. If we assume that you can do, say, 200 trillion[/b] keys per second in a brute-force operations (distributed.net only got 153 Mkey/day for RC5/64) it'll still take a ridiculous amount of time to break it.

Any attack will be done mathematically, not by churning through overy possibility!

Future's End. Madman in Los Angeles with a 29th century Federation Shuttlecraft owns a massive corporation. Voyager is trying to get the shuttle back. Janeway punches in a random code, and do it doesn't work. She then points her trichoider at it and presses some buttons. A few seconds later, asterisks begin appearing in the password area. Then she got root acess.

It doesn't say anything about encryption, only password protection.