Israel seeks $12 billion US aid to maintain aparthide state

Enlightenment · Post by **Enlightenment** » 2003-01-05 06:44pm

MKSheppard wrote:And when it's all over, the mass murderer's family is given $10k in money for doing precisely that: being a mass murderer.

A family is not a mass murderer. This is quite obvious from grammar let alone logic.

Collective punishment has its uses (e.g. glassing Saudi would do wonderful things for Islamic terrorism) but it's clear for all to see that the Israeli approach isn't effective.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-01-05 06:44pm

Next of Kin wrote: No, you want to have those soldiers go in and execute a family which may or may not be guilty because a wayward son decided to blow himself up in the name of Allah; they'd be killers in the same sense.

The Israelis never do that. They always bulldoze or blow up empty houses,
try again.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-01-05 06:45pm

Enlightenment wrote: A family is not a mass murderer. This is quite obvious from grammar let alone logic.

They benefit from their relative's mass murder bombing, so they're
part of the problem too.

Enlightenment · Post by **Enlightenment** » 2003-01-05 06:45pm

MKSheppard wrote:The Israelis never do that. They always bulldoze or blow up empty houses, try again.

Except when they're invading PA territory (Jenin) or dropping US-provided PGMs on apartment blocks.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-01-05 06:46pm

Enlightenment wrote: Except when they're invading PA territory (Jenin) or dropping US-provided PGMs on apartment blocks.

Oh great, not more bullshit on the Jenin "Massacre"

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-05 06:49pm

You're full of shit, Shep. Do you think Israelis evacuate apartment buildings before firing rockets at them? They don't give a flying fuck about how many civvies get killed; they know they can chalk every last one of them up to "collateral damage" or "families of terrorists", and knee-jerk apologists like you will lap it all up like the mindless, obedient sheep that you are.

Enlightenment · Post by **Enlightenment** » 2003-01-05 06:51pm

MKSheppard wrote:Oh great, not more bullshit on the Jenin "Massacre"

That's a remarkable leap in logic. I mentioned nothing about a masacre.

However, you're nuts if you don't think anyone was killed as a result of buildings getting bulldozed. Tens, not hundreds, but tens aren't zero.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-01-05 06:52pm

Darth Wong wrote:and knee-jerk apologists like you will lap it all up like the mindless, obedient sheep that you are.

Oh please

If you had asked me about this exact subject in Summer 2001, I'd have
agreed with you, but then along comes 9/11 and the images of Palestinians
cheering the destruction of the WTC and the deaths of 3,000 americans, and
well.....

I'm now firmly in the hardline camp concerning the palestinian "problem",
preferably either mass deportation to Syria/Lebanon/Jordan/Egypt as a
solution to the problem.

Yes, Shep can change his views, but it takes earthshaking events to do
that.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-01-05 06:54pm

Enlightenment wrote: That's a remarkable leap in logic. I mentioned nothing about a masacre.

A while back, the press was all agog about the jenin "massacre", and how
the Israelis were flattening the place, etc etc, so forgive my knee-jerk
reaction to that name.

Post by **Coyote** » 2003-01-05 07:12pm

jaeger115 wrote: Oh yeah? Before Israel was founded, Jewish terrorists harassed the Arab countryside. How's that?[/i]

Arab harassment and knifings of Jewish immigrants began in April of 1920. The Jews did not form any sort of defense arm (the Hagana) until July of 1920. During the duration of the strife between the two groups, the British were on record as saying that the Jews were the more law-abiding faction.

So enough uneduacted hyperbole.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-05 07:16pm

Coyote wrote:Arab harassment and knifings of Jewish immigrants began in April of 1920. The Jews did not form any sort of defense arm (the Hagana) until July of 1920. During the duration of the strife between the two groups, the British were on record as saying that the Jews were the more law-abiding faction.

So enough uneduacted hyperbole.

He's talking about the Stern gang and other activities shortly prior to the formation of Israel, not actions taking place a generation earlier.

Post by **Coyote** » 2003-01-05 07:21pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Next of Kin wrote: No, you want to have those soldiers go in and execute a family which may or may not be guilty because a wayward son decided to blow himself up in the name of Allah; they'd be killers in the same sense.
The Israelis never do that. They always bulldoze or blow up empty houses,
try again.

Be careful; they have bulldozed houses with people in them, either because they were rousted out of bed at 3am and given less than 5 minutes to unass the property and couldn't get out in time, or simply because loners/elderly were overlooked.

Big scandal about it in Ha'Aretz newspaper last July, someone's grandpa was left in the house 'cause he couldn't get out in time. The house was bulldozed because it was being used as a sniper position (I believe with the Palestinian family's concent, but i don't remember much else form the article).

Next of Kin · Post by **Next of Kin** » 2003-01-05 07:31pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Yes, Shep can change his views, but it takes earthshaking events to do
that.

Does your time in prison count as one of those 'earthshaking events'?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-05 07:31pm

Shep is mixing and matching different problems. When confronted with violence and use of indiscriminate area-effect weapons used against civilian targets, he shrugs and says they're all terrorists or families of terrorists (not bothering to distinguish between the two).

He then claims that all bulldozed homes are evacuated first (even though this is not necessarily true), forgetting that most bulldozed homes are actually bulldozed to make way for Jewish settlements, which has nothing to do with terrorism (except to act as an incentive).

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-01-05 07:54pm

Darth Wong wrote:Shep is mixing and matching different problems. When confronted with violence and use of indiscriminate area-effect weapons used against civilian targets, he shrugs and says they're all terrorists or families of terrorists (not bothering to distinguish between the two).

When they take $10k in blood money from Hamas/Islamic Jihad, then
they're benefitting from their relative's violent explosive death....

willburns84 · Post by **willburns84** » 2003-01-05 08:06pm

All right. With the vitreol (?spelling?) still fresh in the air, what/how should the USA / Israel / Palestinians do regarding their policies, attitudes, and hatreds?

How should the Israelis combat terrorism within their borders and outside their borders?

Perhaps the greater question is how should *any* country combat terrorist groups who / which spend much of their time to the murder of the innocent? Terrorist groups which have the undeniable support of a friendly populace.

Sorry for the subject creep, but reading the exchanges of:
Racist!
Fuck you!
Racist!
is rather old and tired.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-05 08:08pm

MKSheppard wrote:When they take $10k in blood money from Hamas/Islamic Jihad, then they're benefitting from their relative's violent explosive death....

And when an Israeli soldier's family uses his income to provide for themselves, they are benefiting from his violent actions in Occupied Territory. You are guilty of a serious double-standard, Shep.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-05 08:11pm

This debate, like all Israel debates, has inevitably turned into the standard "Israel vs Palestine" debate. Have we forgotten that it's actually about Israel demanding TWELVE BILLION FUCKING DOLLARS IN GLORIFIED STATE WELFARE?

What have they done to deserve it? Nothing. The fact that people immediately scream "terrorism!" in order to defend this welfare demand is simply more proof of the knee-jerk mentality of Israel apologists.

willburns84 · Post by **willburns84** » 2003-01-05 08:18pm

willburns84 wrote:All right. With the vitreol (?spelling?) still fresh in the air, what/how should the USA / Israel / Palestinians do regarding their policies, attitudes, and hatreds?

How should the Israelis combat terrorism within their borders and outside their borders?

Perhaps the greater question is how should *any* country combat terrorist groups who / which spend much of their time to the murder of the innocent? Terrorist groups which have the undeniable support of a friendly populace.

Sorry for the subject creep, but reading the exchanges of:
Racist!
Fuck you!
Racist!
is rather old and tired.

Mod - delete this post - I'm going to start up another thread.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-01-05 08:36pm

Darth Wong wrote: What have they done to deserve it? Nothing.

Actually, we've been paying them and the Egyptians off
since the late 70s. So this is nothing new. Why don't you
get worked up over our support of a military dictatorship
that actively persecutes and tortures homosexuals?

I mean, for god's sake, we send the Egyptians about
$2bn a year, roughly the same amount we give to
Israel.

jaeger115 · Post by **jaeger115** » 2003-01-05 08:52pm

the British were on record as saying that the Jews were the more law-abiding faction.

The British said that? That's a second-hand statement. Second-hand statements are unreliable because the British possibly could be very mistaken or biased.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-01-05 09:03pm

Darth Wong wrote: And when an Israeli soldier's family uses his income to provide for themselves, they are benefiting from his violent actions in Occupied Territory. You are guilty of a serious double-standard, Shep.

What double standard? He isn't the one mowing down civilians with his
M-16A1 in full automatic....oh wait, that's what Palestinian terrorists
do...

jaeger115 · Post by **jaeger115** » 2003-01-05 09:07pm

What double standard? He isn't the one mowing down civilians with his
M-16A1 in full automatic....oh wait, that's what Palestinian terrorists
do...

Haven't you read these articles on the ME that go like this: A Israeli soldier gunned down five suspected terrorists, blah, blah, blah, ....?

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-01-05 09:09pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: And when an Israeli soldier's family uses his income to provide for themselves, they are benefiting from his violent actions in Occupied Territory. You are guilty of a serious double-standard, Shep.
What double standard? He isn't the one mowing down civilians with his
M-16A1 in full automatic....oh wait, that's what Palestinian terrorists
do...

No he's just occupying (illegally in the eyes of UN law) a sovereign state, supressing the population and calling in airstrikes on civilian populaces (ok that last one is a little extreme).

Since when is a 250kg of HE dropped from an airplane into a block of flats an acceptable way of dealing with a SINGLE HUMAN TARGET?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-01-05 09:19pm

weemadando wrote: No he's just occupying (illegally in the eyes of UN law) a sovereign state,

Uhm, since when is the west bank a Sovereign state?

Gee, look at the Islamofascist logos. They show the ENTIRE
state of israel, not the West Bank.....perhaps they're trying
to tell us something?