FIFA World Cup Thread

[Patrick Degan]

The ref fucked up and didn't had control over the game. He didn't even follow a clear line, cards were given randomly. For example the yellow cards to Ramos, Puyol and Capdevilla were totally justified, but then he doesn't give a yellow card to Sneijder for what he did to Busquets? And by not giving the red card to DeJong for his karate-kick, he encouraged that behaviour. Holland played so dirty because he allowed it, the worst thing of all is THAT THEY CAN PLAY GOOD FOOTBALL. If Howard Webb would have found his balls and had forced NL to play football by discouraging their dirty play, we actually would have gotten a nice match.

Righto - so you think if Webb had sent off De Jong, this would have encouraged Holland to play football.....despite the fact that they would then have been a player short up against the best passing side in the world. LOL

The fact that otherwise they'd possibly wind up two men down against the best passing side in the world if they didn't get their shit straight and start playing proper footy might have provided a rather powerful incentive in that direction.

The deterrent value of the hammer should not be underestimated.

[darth_timon]

Webb didn't have the best of games but he certainly didn't have the worst of games either. Over at Bigsoccer, I've seen people- predominately Dutch fans- blast him for wrongly awarding the goalkick that led to the goal, but I don't see how the Dutch can complain- they should have been down to 10 men at half time and possibly even 9 men- they didn't deserve to win the final, and Webb's actions only served to stay their defeat until extra time, when the game should have been over well before then.

[Thanas]

So again, I haven't a bloody clue from where you get the impression that the Dutch are dealing with a 'patriotic blinders' issue.

It was not that dirty, I think you are reading the commentators / news reports too much, most of the tackles were fair attempts at getting the ball.

Fuck 'em —they deserved to lose and they would have deserved to lose

Not really, it was a fairly even match.

They did follow the rules, and were carded when they broke them. The spanish could of also gone to ten, it was not a one sided affair by means of play or tackles.

I saw at least 3 cards handed to the Netherlands which were hardly contact, and the one red card was laughable.

Dive more, Spain, you're giving u-boats a run for their money.

There were moments in that game I thought I was watching American Football, the way he paused for every fucking little nothing.

What do you call that then if not complaining that a lot of the calls were unwarranted?

[Siege]

What do you call that then if not complaining that a lot of the calls were unwarranted?

I'd call that a perfectly valid criticism. Webb was being a complete idiot for most of the game. He doesn't card De Jong. He does give a red card to Heitinga for supposedling pulling down Iniesta... And at the same time he doesn't card Puyol even though he torpedoed Robben when he couldn't keep up with him. Robben was rightfully outraged, and nets a yellow for complaining to the referee for doing a shitty-ass job. Van Bommel should've gotten a second card for his foul against Iniesta; Iniesta should've gotten yellow for retaliating against Van Bommel a few seconds later. Fabregas and Casillas both touch a ball that goes off-field yet somehow that nets Spain a goal-kick even though it should have been a corner; Ramos downs Elia and is allowed to play on even though it should've been a free kick.

That's just off the top of my head, and I haven't reviewed the game since I saw it. And this isn't even getting into the litany of free kicks Webb awarded even in situations that resulted in advantage to the attacking team. The referee, frankly, was a fucking idiot who didn't card anywhere near consistently. And despite your quotes I fail to see how anyone in this thread "[denied] that De Jong shoulda gotten red, or that Van Bommel could've been sent off as well" as I said earlier. Nor have I seen anyone claim that the Dutch somehow deserved to win this game. So to be perfectly blunt, any claim that "the referee was a nitwit" or "not all those cards were quite sensible" somehow equate to "patriotic blinders" is just utter hysterical nonsense on your part as far as I'm concerned. In case you failed to notice, "a lot of those calls were unwarranted" =/= "patriotic blinders".

[Master of Ossus]

I'd call that a perfectly valid criticism. Webb was being a complete idiot for most of the game. He doesn't card De Jong. He does give a red card to Heitinga for supposedling pulling down Iniesta... And at the same time he doesn't card Puyol even though he torpedoed Robben when he couldn't keep up with him. Robben was rightfully outraged, and nets a yellow for complaining to the referee for doing a shitty-ass job. Van Bommel should've gotten a second card for his foul against Iniesta; Iniesta should've gotten yellow for retaliating against Van Bommel a few seconds later. Fabregas and Casillas both touch a ball that goes off-field yet somehow that nets Spain a goal-kick even though it should have been a corner; Ramos downs Elia and is allowed to play on even though it should've been a free kick.

That's just off the top of my head, and I haven't reviewed the game since I saw it. And this isn't even getting into the litany of free kicks Webb awarded even in situations that resulted in advantage to the attacking team. The referee, frankly, was a fucking idiot who didn't card anywhere near consistently. And despite your quotes I fail to see how anyone in this thread "[denied] that De Jong shoulda gotten red, or that Van Bommel could've been sent off as well" as I said earlier. Nor have I seen anyone claim that the Dutch somehow deserved to win this game. So to be perfectly blunt, any claim that "the referee was a nitwit" or "not all those cards were quite sensible" somehow equate to "patriotic blinders" is just utter hysterical nonsense on your part as far as I'm concerned. In case you failed to notice, "a lot of those calls were unwarranted" =/= "patriotic blinders".

Thing is, the Dutch tactics revolved around attempting to intimidate the Spaniards by committing hard fouls. If you watch the first 15 or 20 minutes of the match, the Dutch were completely outclassed. Spain had possession for about 80% of that period, and had several chances. But they did get intimidated, and the officials didn't do enough to stop it from happening, and so the second half (and the remainder of the first) were much more evenly played. Only after the Dutch got tired did they start to reassert themselves. Spain was completely thrown by the hard fouls in the first 30 minutes, and started bailing out from contact rather than being allowed to attack towards goal.

[Thanas]

Nor have I seen anyone claim that the Dutch somehow deserved to win this game. So to be perfectly blunt, any claim that "the referee was a nitwit" or "not all those cards were quite sensible" somehow equate to "patriotic blinders" is just utter hysterical nonsense on your part as far as I'm concerned. In case you failed to notice, "a lot of those calls were unwarranted" =/= "patriotic blinders".

It is a good thing that my statement did not only involve that then, though you conveniently chose to ignore those parts of it which are proving by that.

People denying that the netherlands should have been two or three players down by half-time, or that they did not play brutal football that was worse than any other match at the world cup, for example.

So yeah, the above mentioned quotes do contradict that one. If you can't see it, sorry.

[Siege]

So yeah, the above mentioned quotes do contradict that one. If you can't see it, sorry.

You provide quotes the likes of "the ref was an idiot", "it was not that dirty", or "the Spanish could've also gone down to ten" and claim that they prove there's a "patriotic blinders" issue going on. I'm sorry, but for that to hold your definition of just what constitutes "patriotic blinders" must be radically different from mine. If you had people up in here claiming that the Netherlands were robbed or that the ref was clearly biased or somesuch I'd be right there with you. As it is, I'm far from convinced you have a leg to stand on. Sometimes a person claiming "it was not that dirty" is just wrong, you know, instead of suffering from an nationalism overdose.

[Thanas]

So yeah, the above mentioned quotes do contradict that one. If you can't see it, sorry.

You provide quotes the likes of "the ref was an idiot", "it was not that dirty", or "the Spanish could've also gone down to ten" and claim that they prove there's a "patriotic blinders" issue going on. I'm sorry, but for that to hold your definition of just what constitutes "patriotic blinders" must be radically different from mine. If you had people up in here claiming that the Netherlands were robbed or that the ref was clearly biased or somesuch I'd be right there with you. As it is, I'm far from convinced you have a leg to stand on. Sometimes a person claiming "it was not that dirty" is just wrong, you know, instead of suffering from an nationalism overdose.

Sorry, but anybody who has actually seen the game and claims the cards were due to Spanish diving, responds with "Fuck the spanish" or thinks the Netherlands kept to the rules has to be an utter retard or has massive patriotic blinders on. Take your pick.

That said, if this has not convinced you, nothing will, so I am going to discontinue this line of argument.

[Hillary]

The ref fucked up and didn't had control over the game. He didn't even follow a clear line, cards were given randomly. For example the yellow cards to Ramos, Puyol and Capdevilla were totally justified, but then he doesn't give a yellow card to Sneijder for what he did to Busquets? And by not giving the red card to DeJong for his karate-kick, he encouraged that behaviour. Holland played so dirty because he allowed it, the worst thing of all is THAT THEY CAN PLAY GOOD FOOTBALL. If Howard Webb would have found his balls and had forced NL to play football by discouraging their dirty play, we actually would have gotten a nice match.

Righto - so you think if Webb had sent off De Jong, this would have encouraged Holland to play football.....despite the fact that they would then have been a player short up against the best passing side in the world. LOL

The fact that otherwise they'd possibly wind up two men down against the best passing side in the world if they didn't get their shit straight and start playing proper footy might have provided a rather powerful incentive in that direction.

The deterrent value of the hammer should not be underestimated.

Nor overestimated - 10 v 11 would have made it even less likely for Holland to outplay Spain. Holland could only win the match by stopping Spain playing their passing game. They worked out quickly that this meant shaking them up. Watch some footage of Stoke, Bolton, Blackburn et al against Arsenal in the PL to see this in full flow.

I actually think it would have made the situation worse. The Dutch would have been fired up even more by a sense of injustice at a sending off early on. Of course, neither of us can prove one way or the other, but footballers are hardly rational human beings at the best of times.

[Wedge]

The fact that otherwise they'd possibly wind up two men down against the best passing side in the world if they didn't get their shit straight and start playing proper footy might have provided a rather powerful incentive in that direction.

The deterrent value of the hammer should not be underestimated.

Nor overestimated - 10 v 11 would have made it even less likely for Holland to outplay Spain. Holland could only win the match by stopping Spain playing their passing game. They worked out quickly that this meant shaking them up. Watch some footage of Stoke, Bolton, Blackburn et al against Arsenal in the PL to see this in full flow.

I actually think it would have made the situation worse. The Dutch would have been fired up even more by a sense of injustice at a sending off early on. Of course, neither of us can prove one way or the other, but footballers are hardly rational human beings at the best of times.

Who said anything about outplaying Spain? My argument was that the ref should always discourage dirty-play and by doing so Holland would have had no chance but to play clean. He should have given DeJong the red card after his karate-kick, I think NO DUTCH would have had a sense of "injustice", on the contrary by not giving it, spanish players and every neutral spectator got a sense of injustice by that not being punished with a red card.

Holland could only win the match by shaking them up? How come Portugal, Germany, Paraguay playing a cleaner football had the same fucking result 1:0 loss. Paraguay broke Spain's game by pressuring the players in mid-field and broke efficiently the spanish passing game for most of match without giving karate lessons and trying to chop legs off. Spain isn't unbeatable as demonstrated by the Swiss at the beginnig of the WC, to say that the only way for the dutch to win Spain is playing like they did, is bullshit of the highest calliber. I don't understand why you are trying to excuse their behaviour, it was unsportsmanlike.

Why not apply your argument in EVERY football match? Why do red cards exist? You could always argue like that, to me it makes no sense. So a red card would make situations always worse, or just in this case? If it only applies here, where is the difference? Even if the karate-kick was clearly deserving a red card?

[Patrick Degan]

The fact that otherwise they'd possibly wind up two men down against the best passing side in the world if they didn't get their shit straight and start playing proper footy might have provided a rather powerful incentive in that direction.

The deterrent value of the hammer should not be underestimated.

Nor overestimated - 10 v 11 would have made it even less likely for Holland to outplay Spain. Holland could only win the match by stopping Spain playing their passing game. They worked out quickly that this meant shaking them up. Watch some footage of Stoke, Bolton, Blackburn et al against Arsenal in the PL to see this in full flow.

I actually think it would have made the situation worse. The Dutch would have been fired up even more by a sense of injustice at a sending off early on. Of course, neither of us can prove one way or the other, but footballers are hardly rational human beings at the best of times.

The arguments about teams playing cleaner football and still challenging or even beating Spain have already been addressed by Wedge. As for how pissy the Dutch might have gotten if DeJong had been ejected, (an Appeal to Consequence Fallacy, BTW), let's say they do get "more fired up" and pull more dirty shit. Then the next guy gets red-carded and they're down to nine men. Then eight. Then seven. Are you REALLY going to try to sell the idea that the Dutch would have risked thinning their ranks to the point of getting clobbered or being forced to a forefit and disgracing their country on the world stage by not learning a basic lesson about not giving impromptu karate lessons on the field?