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I have no idea what happened at this place. Anyone want to enlighten me? All I know is that there was a cult, a fire, and they all died.

Vympel wrote:I have no idea what happened at this place. Anyone want to enlighten me? All I know is that there was a cult, a fire, and they all died.

Towards the end of the stand off the FBI decided they were going to storm the place. They moved in with engineering tanks (unarmed) to smash holes in the walls and put tear gas in over a time span. When the tanks were fired on they decided to use ALL the tear gas in a much quicker span of time. When this happened the idiots inside fealt they would be over run so they lit the place on fire. We know they lit the place on fire because they designed it like a tender box. That and we hear audio tapes from microphones that got smuggled in with food hearing people talk about splashing gasoline all over the place. This is further supported by the video tapes of people willingly throwing themselves into the fire.

Their were doubtlessly errors on the part of the FBI, especially when it came to how much slack they cut the hostage negoatiators. However the branch dividians did kill themselves, not the FBI.

Alyeska wrote:
Towards the end of the stand off the FBI decided they were going to storm the place. They moved in with engineering tanks (unarmed) to smash holes in the walls and put tear gas in over a time span. When the tanks were fired on they decided to use ALL the tear gas in a much quicker span of time. When this happened the idiots inside fealt they would be over run so they lit the place on fire. We know they lit the place on fire because they designed it like a tender box. That and we hear audio tapes from microphones that got smuggled in with food hearing people talk about splashing gasoline all over the place. This is further supported by the video tapes of people willingly throwing themselves into the fire.

Their were doubtlessly errors on the part of the FBI, especially when it came to how much slack they cut the hostage negoatiators. However the branch dividians did kill themselves, not the FBI.

Ah ok- makes things more clear now. The way I hear about it on some psycho websites it's as if they stormed the place with flamethrower tanks or something.

Vympel wrote:

Alyeska wrote:
Towards the end of the stand off the FBI decided they were going to storm the place. They moved in with engineering tanks (unarmed) to smash holes in the walls and put tear gas in over a time span. When the tanks were fired on they decided to use ALL the tear gas in a much quicker span of time. When this happened the idiots inside fealt they would be over run so they lit the place on fire. We know they lit the place on fire because they designed it like a tender box. That and we hear audio tapes from microphones that got smuggled in with food hearing people talk about splashing gasoline all over the place. This is further supported by the video tapes of people willingly throwing themselves into the fire.

Their were doubtlessly errors on the part of the FBI, especially when it came to how much slack they cut the hostage negoatiators. However the branch dividians did kill themselves, not the FBI.

Ah ok- makes things more clear now. The way I hear about it on some psycho websites it's as if they stormed the place with flamethrower tanks or something.

Ever see footage of Vietnam era flame tanks used by the US military? They are very distinct. You don't see the engineering tanks in Waco doing the same thing, hell they don't even have a single gun on them.

Alyeska wrote:
Ever see footage of Vietnam era flame tanks used by the US military? They are very distinct. You don't see the engineering tanks in Waco doing the same thing, hell they don't even have a single gun on them.

What was the purpose of the siege in the first place?

Vympel wrote:

Alyeska wrote:
Ever see footage of Vietnam era flame tanks used by the US military? They are very distinct. You don't see the engineering tanks in Waco doing the same thing, hell they don't even have a single gun on them.

What was the purpose of the siege in the first place?

There was concerns that people were being held their unwillingly. That turned out to be single parrents holding the child their aginst the wishes of the other parent. IIRC every adult there *wanted* to be there. The other thing was that they had illegal weapons. It was the illegal weapons that had the FBI and ATF assault the place, which in turn became the most famous screw up of the whole place (other then it burning down). After that the real siege began.

However it should be noted that they had the place surrounded BEFORE the FBI and ATF assaulted it. They were in the process of negoatiating and it seemed a deal with reasonably close when the FBI HRT decided to ignore the FBI negoatiators and assault the place. This is where things started going down hill for the FBI. They were overly agressive and thought they couldn't loose, at least this was the Hostage Rescue Team talking. They wanted to redeem themselves after Ruby Ridge and they fucked up royally in this regard. Anyway, the end result is well known.

One point that should be noted is that the FBI did indeed learn from this mistake. Durring the Montana Freeman siege the FBI was actually quite "passive" and decided to play the waiting game rather then assault the place.

Here is a good link for info about what happened. It presents a very good unbiased description of the events.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/dc_branc2.htm

I watched it live on TV. I saw the tank break in the side of the wall with its rammer, and I could see the fire start FROM THE OPPOSITE END OF THE COMPOUND FROM WHERE THE TANK WAS. I was simply stunned to hear people later talking about the tank set a fire.

Don't forget about the fact that the cult leader married a 11 year old girl.

Why have a siege? The leader and many of his followers would regularly go into town for food and supplies, all they needed to do was wait until then and arrest him. At best it was a horribly botched operation that never should have happened, at worst it was a criminal action by the Clintoon administration.

Falcon wrote:Why have a siege? The leader and many of his followers would regularly go into town for food and supplies, all they needed to do was wait until then and arrest him.

As if the leader and his followers would stupid wander into town after having shot a bunch of ATF agents ...

At best it was a horribly botched operation that never should have happened, at worst it was a criminal action by the Clintoon administration.

Maybe they could have pulled it off better, but they had every right to do it. Their neighbours were terrified of them; they were bullying everyone with their bullshit and their arsenal.

I think it was Frontline or some other news show that did a special on the siege. It was interesting to see the mentality of the HRT folks vs the negotiatiors. The HRT people did not see any value in waiting they wanted to just go in and storm the place. While the negotiaters wanted to wait it out.
The big problem if a I remember was a lack of clear chain of command at the scene.

The FBI is partially at fault, but make no mistake. The Branch Dividians could have surrendered at anytime. And as was mentioned before there were children and illegal guns involved.

Darth Wong wrote: As if the leader and his followers would stupid wander into town after having shot a bunch of ATF agents ...

Actually, Wong, what he means was instead of trying to storm the place
in the FIRST place in a massive raid in which ATF agents shot their own
people repeatedly, the ATF could just have waited till Koresh was in town
and then pick him up QUIETLY....DURGH..but that's too SIMPLE for the
glory hogs in the ATF.....

The entire mess was a fucking fuck up right from the start by the ATF...

Gee, instead of picking the guy up when he goes to the store in town,
lets try to storm his property, despite the fact that we're going after
him for (supposedly) firearms charges!

WHEE, We're soooo SMRT!

Oh yes, If I remember correctly, they had the entire site BULLDOZED
almost right after the fire, precluding any real serious forensenic efforts
to find out WTF happened.

Darth Wong wrote:

Falcon wrote:Why have a siege? The leader and many of his followers would regularly go into town for food and supplies, all they needed to do was wait until then and arrest him.

As if the leader and his followers would stupid wander into town after having shot a bunch of ATF agents ...

Before the siege...duh

At best it was a horribly botched operation that never should have happened, at worst it was a criminal action by the Clintoon administration.

Maybe they could have pulled it off better, but they had every right to do it. Their neighbours were terrified of them; they were bullying everyone with their bullshit and their arsenal.[/quote]

Oh yeah, that perfectly justifies murdering all those children and other people swept up with a bunch of mentally unstable wacos. The FBI knew these crazies were ready to do just about anything, why try to apprehend them in the most dangerous way possible instead of picking off the leaders when they're out and exposed?

MKSheppard wrote:The entire mess was a fucking fuck up right from the start by the ATF...

So regardless of Koresh being a criminal, and the fact that he shot at Federal agents who idenitified themselves and had a warrent, he is not to blame? If that were true then that would mean any criminal who shoots and kills a police officer to avoid imprisonment has a ready made excuse. Also lets completely ignore the fact that the Branch Dividians lit themselves on fire, not the ATF or FBI.

Alyeska wrote: So regardless of Koresh being a criminal, and the fact that he shot at Federal agents who idenitified themselves and had a warrent, he is not to blame?

The entire thing was over a TAX Matter, over a $200 dollar tax on Class III
weapons. And the door that could have told us who the fuck shot first,
Koresh, or the ATF, has mysteriously disappeared....

Hope you don't have any washers in your house.....then you're guilty of
possession of Class III articles and subject to imprisionment for violating
the 1934 NFA

(I refer to the metal doughnut shaped flat discs, not the clothes washer type.)

Falcon wrote:Oh yeah, that perfectly justifies murdering all those children and other people swept up with a bunch of mentally unstable wacos.

You're an idiot. Koresh murdered those children, not the FBI.

The FBI knew these crazies were ready to do just about anything, why try to apprehend them in the most dangerous way possible instead of picking off the leaders when they're out and exposed?

Hindsight is 20/20. The agents obviously didn't expect to be gunned down, dumb-fuck.

Darth Wong wrote: Hindsight is 20/20. The agents obviously didn't expect to be gunned down, dumb-fuck.

Yet they didn't have a problem having national guard UH-1 Hueys overhead
armed with M-60 GPMG door guns at the time they tried to storm the place
originally. I believe those UH-1s fired several THOUSAND rounds into the Davidan buildings.

All over a fucking $200 dollar tax on a piece of metal.

MKSheppard wrote:

Darth Wong wrote: Hindsight is 20/20. The agents obviously didn't expect to be gunned down, dumb-fuck.

Yet they didn't have a problem having national guard UH-1 Hueys overhead
armed with M-60 GPMG door guns at the time they tried to storm the place
originally. I believe those UH-1s fired several THOUSAND rounds into the Davidan buildings.

All over a fucking $200 dollar tax on a piece of metal.

If the people in those buildings were Palestinians, you'd be saying that they should have used rockets and mortars, cheering them on, and saying that it would be OK to deliberately target and shoot any kids they saw. The agents thought they were dealing with armed hostiles (which they were). They allowed some kids to leave without incident. It was a botched operation but it was hardly murderous, as the idiot Falcon claims. Your attempts to exaggerate this incident are standard right-wing bullshit, Shep.

Darth Wong wrote: You're an idiot. Koresh murdered those children, not the FBI.

The FBI shot INCIENDARY cannisters into the Branch Davidan buildings,
which were CS gas cannisters that rely on BURNING INCIENDARY
material to cause a chemical reaction to produce CS. Those same
cannisters have been suspected in several other incidents where the
buildings they were used on caught FIRE.

MKSheppard wrote:

Darth Wong wrote: You're an idiot. Koresh murdered those children, not the FBI.

The FBI shot INCIENDARY cannisters into the Branch Davidan buildings,
which were CS gas cannisters that rely on BURNING INCIENDARY
material to cause a chemical reaction to produce CS. Those same
cannisters have been suspected in several other incidents where the
buildings they were used on caught FIRE.

I saw how quickly that building caught fire. The fact that a gas canister can theoretically start a fire does not mean that it will also cause the target building to be magically rigged to burn quickly. Don't be a dumb-ass, Shep. You're falling for anti-gov propaganda. Your government is shit in many ways, but there's no reason to exaggerate.

MKSheppard wrote:

Darth Wong wrote: You're an idiot. Koresh murdered those children, not the FBI.

The FBI shot INCIENDARY cannisters into the Branch Davidan buildings,
which were CS gas cannisters that rely on BURNING INCIENDARY
material to cause a chemical reaction to produce CS. Those same
cannisters have been suspected in several other incidents where the
buildings they were used on caught FIRE.

One problem. The FBI assaulted from one direction, the fire started on another. Even if the FBI did cause the fire they did not do it intetionally. There was no flame thrower and broiling of the people by the FBI.

I hate getting into arguements like this.

There is good reason for people's distrust of the ATF.
It is afterall the offspring of the Internal Revunue service (Which everyone hates). Also It has a reputation going back to it's previous incarnation as the Holmstead Act, treasury department enforcers, of using back doors and loopholes to get around inconvient lacks of evidence.

This actually goes back even before the Elliot Ness vs. Alphonse Capone years, and back to reconstruction, when the Tax officials were responsible for illegal distilation (A big problem back then), and trying to put a stop to the domestic terrorism of the day.




Also, backing up Shepard on the incindiary CS gas fires: Black Panthers, Weathermen Underground & SLA in the 1970's, PUSH in the 1980's. Have had incidents where local SWAT or FBI tear gas has started large scale fires.

The ATF is ultimately responsible for the whole mess. Why the fuck did the ATF need an assault force to serve an warrent for not paiding the $200 dollar tax?

Hell even the ATF undercover agent warned them repeatedly Koresh knew they were coming.