The latest gem from Rumsfeld

[Vympel]

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The failure of U.N. arms inspectors to find weapons of mass destruction "could be evidence, in and of itself, of Iraq's noncooperation" with U.N. disarmament resolutions, U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said Wednesday.

Iraq says it has abandoned its efforts to develop nuclear, chemical and biological weapons -- a declaration the United States has dismissed.

The chief U.N. weapons inspector, Hans Blix, told the U.N. Security Council last week that his teams had found no "smoking gun" in nearly two months of inspections but urged more "active cooperation" from Iraq.

"The fact that the inspectors have not yet come up with new evidence of Iraq's WMD program could be evidence, in and of itself, of Iraq's noncooperation," Rumsfeld said. "We do know that Iraq has designed its programs in a way that they can proceed in an environment of inspections and that they are skilled at denial and deception."

Rumsfeld said the United States and the United Nations have no obligation to prove that Iraq has continued efforts to develop nuclear, chemical or biological weapons. Instead, he said, Iraq must prove that it has abandoned them.
-----------------------------------------

Emphasis mine.

Can someone tell me how the fucking compliant, doe-eyed, no-brained press over there can hear such plain faced utter bullshit from such a batshit crazy warmonger (in the words of fark.com) and not call him out on it?

Yes, fellow SD.net flamewarriors, lack of evidence is now evidence in and of itself.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Emphasis mine.

Can someone tell me how the fucking compliant, doe-eyed, no-brained press over there can hear such plain faced utter bullshit from such a batshit crazy warmonger (in the words of fark.com) and not call him out on it?

Yes, fellow SD.net flamewarriors, lack of evidence is now evidence in and of itself.

Well, if the Iraqis had WMD previously, which are not found now and are not accounted for as destroyed in Iraqi documents submitted to the Security Council, it is a not entirely unreasonable claim.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

One should also note that it wouldn't be unreasonable if the government had evidence about such weaponry, and was choosing to release that evidence at the appropriate date, thus sealing proof of Iraqi violation.

[HemlockGrey]

That is brilliant.

"We have not found any evidence of Iraqi WMD, therefor, they must exist."

I have not yet found any evidence that Rumsfield owes me twenty-six million in gambling debts. He better pay up.

[Knife]

Come on, we know he had some WMD a decade ago. Thats why we had inspectors there in the first place. Now there are no record of them, where they went, nothing. Were are the reports of the inspectors touring the facility that the Iraqi's used to dismantle the WMD? Hmmmmm they must have disapeared.

[Admiral Valdemar]

No WMD, no reason to go in. Regardless of the past, you need concrete evidence and no Rumsfeld's deluded drivel to actually go through with this scenario with UN or public backing.

[Kuja]

"The fact that the inspectors have not yet come up with new evidence of Iraq's WMD program could be evidence, in and of itself, of Iraq's noncooperation," Rumsfeld said. "We do know that Iraq has designed its programs in a way that they can proceed in an environment of inspections and that they are skilled at denial and deception."

WHEEEEEEE! More crack!

[Admiral Valdemar]

"The fact that the inspectors have not yet come up with new evidence of Iraq's WMD program could be evidence, in and of itself, of Iraq's noncooperation," Rumsfeld said. "We do know that Iraq has designed its programs in a way that they can proceed in an environment of inspections and that they are skilled at denial and deception."

WHEEEEEEE! More crack!

No, he has to leave some for Bushykins and Condoleeza.

[Kuja]

WHEEEEEEE! More crack!

No, he has to leave some for Bushykins and Condoleeza.

*heard inside the Oval Office*

"Gimmie some of yours!"

"NOOOOO! Don't touch my crack!"

*sound of breaking furniture*

[Stravo]

Although I am fully in favor of this war, they really could have found a better way of wording this..it HURTS MY BRAIN when I see words like these spouted by my government to support an action that needs to be done. Are the Bushites just trying to make their position worse??

[Knife]

No WMD, no reason to go in. Regardless of the past, you need concrete evidence and no Rumsfeld's deluded drivel to actually go through with this scenario with UN or public backing.

Actually it should go something like, with no documantation of what was destroyed, where it was destroyed, when it was destroyed, and how it was destroyed, there is plenty of reasons to go in regardless of the deluded drivel spewed out by opponents of the Iraqi situation.

[Shinova]

Though it was the US that originally gave Iraq the chemical and biological weapons and jumpstarted its weapons program. Then Iraq went rogue.

US "know" for sure that Iraq has WMDs cause the US gave them to it in the first place. And Rumsfield's quote screams "WE ONLY WANT YOUR OIL!!! WAAAARRR!!!!"

[ArthurDent]

Smoking gun? Who said that there had to be a smoking gun? The Security Council certainly didn't. In fact they said,

"Deploring the fact that Iraq has not provided an accurate, full, final, and complete disclosure, as required by resolution 687 (1991), of all aspects of its programmes to develop weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles with a range greater than one hundred fifty kilometres, and of all holdings of such weapons, their components and production facilities and locations, as well as all other nuclear programmes, including any which it claims are for purposes not related to nuclear-weapons-usable material,

Deploring further that Iraq repeatedly obstructed immediate, unconditional, and unrestricted access to sites designated by the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), failed to cooperate fully and unconditionally with UNSCOM and IAEA weapons inspectors, as required by resolution 687 (1991), and ultimately ceased all cooperation with UNSCOM and the IAEA in 1998,

Deploring the absence, since December 1998, in Iraq of international monitoring, inspection, and verification, as required by relevant resolutions, of weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles, in spite of the Council's repeated demands that Iraq provide immediate, unconditional, and unrestricted access to the United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC), established in resolution 1284(1999) as the successor organization to UNSCOM, and the IAEA, and regretting the consequent prolonging of the crisis in the region and the suffering of the Iraqi people,

Deploring also that the Government of Iraq has failed to comply with its commitments pursuant to resolution 687 (1991) with regard to terrorism, pursuant to resolution 688 (1991) to end repression of its civilian population and to provide access by international humanitarian organizations to all those in need of assistance in Iraq, and pursuant to resolutions 686 (1991), 687 (1991) and 1284 (1999) to return or cooperate in accounting for Kuwaiti and third country nationals wrongfully detained by Iraq, or to return Kuwaiti property wrongfully seized by Iraq,

Recalling that in its resolution 687 (1991) the Council declared that a ceasefire would be based on acceptance by Iraq of the provisions of that resolution, including the obligations on Iraq contained therein....

1. Decides that Iraq has been and remains in material breach of its obligations under relevant resolutions, including resolution 687 (1991), in particular through Iraq's failure to cooperate with United Nations inspectors and the IAEA, and to complete the actions required under paragraphs 8 to 13 of resolution 687 (1991);

2. Decides, while acknowledging paragraph 1 above, to afford Iraq, by this resolution, a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations under relevant resolutions of the Council; and accordingly decides to set up an enhanced inspection regime with the aim of bringing full and verified completion the disarmament process established by resolution 687 (1991) and subsequne t resolutions of the Council;

....

4. Decides that false statements or omissions in the declarations submitted by Iraq pursuant to this resolution and failure by Iraq at any time to comply with, and cooperate fully in the implementation of, this resolution shall constitute a further material breach of Iraq's obligations..."

So, according to the UN, Iraq has to prove that it does not have WMD. It is not up to the inspectors to find them or evidence of them. So, until Iraq puts everything on the table, they are in material breach, and the ceasefire from 1991 requires that they not be in material breach, so military hostilities may commence at any time.

Really, before you make stupid comments, you should read the relevant resolutions and what they require.

And Shinova, put evidence on the table NOW that the US gave Iraq WMD, otherwise put a sock in it. The US has never given Iraq WMD, so don't make stupid comments like that.

[Darth Wong]

ArthurDent, thank you for providing the inevitable injection of legalistic long-windedness.

Since we know that the US always respects UN declarations 100% of the time (except when it suits them *cough cough*), their motivations are now officially pure again.

[Stravo]

ArthurDent, thank you for providing the inevitable injection of legalistic long-windedness.

Since we know that the US always respects UN declarations 100% of the time (except when it suits them *cough cough*), their motivations are now officially pure again.

The UN gets the respect it deserves from any nation.

[ArthurDent]

ArthurDent, thank you for providing the inevitable injection of legalistic long-windedness.

Since we know that the US always respects UN declarations 100% of the time (except when it suits them *cough cough*), their motivations are now officially pure again.

Thank the UN Security Council since I quoted from their document. But the fact remains that Iraq remains in material breach until it proves that it is not. Its very simple, except to those with their own agenda who ignore the actual facts.

[Knife]

No WMD, no reason to go in. Regardless of the past, you need concrete evidence and no Rumsfeld's deluded drivel to actually go through with this scenario with UN or public backing.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/01/ ... index.html


On the front page of CNN.com


U.N. finds warheads in Iraq
U.N. weapons inspectors found a number of empty chemical warheads and another one that is still being evaluated, according to a U.N. spokesman, who said the warheads were regarded to be in "excellent condition."

Click on the title and you get.....

Blix: Iraq situation 'tense, dangerous'
Chief U.N. inspector says Iraq violated import ban
Thursday, January 16, 2003 Posted: 12:51 PM EST (1751 GMT)

BRUSSELS, Belgium (CNN) -- Chief U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix said Thursday the situation in Iraq was "very tense and very dangerous" as inspectors visited private homes for the first time in their search for evidence of weapons programs.

After meeting with European Union officials, Blix told reporters Iraq has illegally imported arms-related material as recently as 2002, but it is not yet clear whether the material is related to weapons of mass destruction.

"It's clear they have violated the bans of the United Nations in terms of imports," Blix said. The imported items include missile parts, CNN's Richard Roth reported.

U.S. officials reacted positively to Blix's comments.

"The evidence is mounting, and while inspectors went in with a stiff upper lip it is now more clear by the day that things are not going nearly as well as the public has been led to believe," one official said.

President Bush, in a speech Thursday in Scranton, Pennsylvania, repeated his warning that time is running out for Saddam Hussein to comply with demands to disarm.

"So far the evidence hasn't been very good that he is disarming. And time is running out." Bush said. "At some point in time the United States' patience will run out."

As Blix spoke, U.N. weapons inspectors were searching homes owned by Iraqi scientists in the hunt for evidence of weapons of mass destruction, Iraqi officials said. (Full story)

The homes are located in the Al-Ghazaliyah district in Baghdad and are not listed as declared sites by Iraq, suggesting that inspectors may have been working on an intelligence tip.

"We try our best to make the inspections effective," Blix said, "so that we can have a peaceful solution." But, he warned, "the other major option, as you know, is the one we've seen taking shape in the form of an armed action against Iraq."

[irishmick79]

CNN is just reporting that the UN inspectors have found 11 chemical weapons warheads deemed to be in "excellent condition" and there is another warhead that is being evaluated right now. I guess the debate about what the inspectors will find is now rendered insignificant. No link to the news on the web, but it's all over the TV.

[ArthurDent]

CNN is just reporting that the UN inspectors have found 11 chemical weapons warheads deemed to be in "excellent condition" and there is another warhead that is being evaluated right now. I guess the debate about what the inspectors will find is now rendered insignificant. No link to the news on the web, but it's all over the TV.

No doubt that these warheads were not documented in the 12,000 page document like they should have been. This, ladies and gentlemen, is "material breach."

[Admiral Valdemar]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 663863.stm

Apparently they have found empty chemical warheads, but Blix still wants more co-operation on the matter and time.

[Ted]

No doubt that these warheads were not documented in the 12,000 page document like they should have been. This, ladies and gentlemen, is "material breach."

You have to remember that the UN gave the US the ONLY COPIES of the document to translate and SEND COPIES TO OTHER MEMBERS.

So, if you dont find those warheads listed in that 12,000 page document, who knows, the US may have removed that page from the document.

[irishmick79]

Declared or not, the warheads are simply not supposed to be in Iraq. Just the fact that Iraq has them is a material breach.

[Ted]

Declared or not, the warheads are simply not supposed to be in Iraq. Just the fact that Iraq has them is a material breach.

They are EMPTY WARHEADS meaning that there is no NBC. It is a 122mm shell with a hollow tip where you could put NBC, or plain old HE in it.

[Stravo]

No doubt that these warheads were not documented in the 12,000 page document like they should have been. This, ladies and gentlemen, is "material breach."

You have to remember that the UN gave the US the ONLY COPIES of the document to translate and SEND COPIES TO OTHER MEMBERS.

So, if you dont find those warheads listed in that 12,000 page document, who knows, the US may have removed that page from the document.

TED, that is the most FUCKED UP assertion made by anyone on the antiwar side on this board. Oh yeah, lets delete the reference to the these dozen warheads in THE FUCKING HOPES that the Inspectors find them and we candeclare a material breach.

[Stravo]

Declared or not, the warheads are simply not supposed to be in Iraq. Just the fact that Iraq has them is a material breach.

They are EMPTY WARHEADS meaning that there is no NBC. It is a 122mm shell with a hollow tip where you could put NBC, or plain old HE in it.

THEY"RE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE THERE......I don't care what they are. They submitted a substantial report in which they CHALLENGED the UN and US to find anything wrong..well they did....