Anyone here know the FAA rules on unregistered aircraft?

Hyperion · Post by **Hyperion** » 2003-01-19 08:29pm

I.E. do you need a license? Do they have to inspect the aircraft in question? For that matter, how much of a fine do you get for accidentally violating airspace?

And yes, these are serious questions, I kinda need'em answered for a project that me and a couple friends just started on...

Also, anyone here know the rules regarding small airships? (like 30 feet long and about 8 feet diameter)

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-19 08:35pm

Wicked Pilot would obviously be the guy to ask.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-01-19 08:41pm

Mind if we ask you what is this project involves?

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-01-19 08:44pm

I suggest that you find out the information from the FAA themselves - they may have that information online.

They have the reputation of being hardcases, so I would exercise caution.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-01-19 08:57pm

Hyperion wrote:Also, anyone here know the rules regarding small airships? (like 30 feet long and about 8 feet diameter)

I think if it's a single-person craft, under a certain weight, and cannot carry any passengers, it does not require a license. That's how a lot of these ultralight helicopter kits get away, but the moment you add a passenger seat it needs a license.

Just don't quote me on that; it's all off the top of my head.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-19 09:21pm

We'll I consider them fair game for my secret air defense network

However I suggest you check http://www2.faa.gov/ for the information you seek

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-01-19 09:38pm

PAC-2 test launch?

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-01-19 09:44pm

Hyperion wrote:I.E. do you need a license? Do they have to inspect the aircraft in question? For that matter, how much of a fine do you get for accidentally violating airspace?

You need an airworthiness certificate for the plane. All domestic, manufactured civil aiplanes have an airworthiness certificate. If you go out and buy a foreign plane, say like an old Mig 21, or build a kit plane, you will need to get a special certificate for it from the FAA, and be specially qualified and certified by the FAA to fly it. The plane must also be registered with the FAA. Also, if the FAA issues an Air Worthiness Directive, like "inspect all the tail survos on a B-737", then all owners must comply, and log the actions done in the aircraft maintance logs. And yes the FAA does do suprise ramp checks every now and then. I don't know what kind of fines your looking at, but there are probably much steeper for large air carriers than Joe Public the private pilot.

As to airspace violations, I don't know. Obviousily there will probably be bigger fines for flying over prohibited areas like over the White House, as opposed to simply restricted areas like training areas around military bases, or Class B airspace, which lie over the major airports. Alot of times, there will not be a fine at all, but a letter of reprimand, or a certificate suspension, or a certificate revocation.

And yes, these are serious questions, I kinda need'em answered for a project that me and a couple friends just started on...

I suggest you consult an FAA Federial Aviation Regulations/Aeronautical Information Manual (FAR/AIM) book. It is public info so you may be able to find a pdf copy online. A good place to start would be faa.gov, or maybe aopa.org

Also, anyone here know the rules regarding small airships? (like 30 feet long and about 8 feet diameter)

I don't know much about airships, but I would assume that the certification requirements for the aircraft and their pilots would be less than that for fixed wing aircraft and pilots.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-01-19 09:52pm

Crayz9000 wrote:I think if it's a single-person craft, under a certain weight, and cannot carry any passengers, it does not require a license. That's how a lot of these ultralight helicopter kits get away, but the moment you add a passenger seat it needs a license.

Just don't quote me on that; it's all off the top of my head.

As to ultralights, they are defined as:

1)used or intended to be used for manned operation in the air by a single occupent.
2)used or intended to be used for recretation or sport purposes only
3)if unpowered, weighs under 155lb
4)if powered, weiths under 254lb empty
5)has fuel capacity not exceeding 5 U.S. gallons
6)is not capable of operating at a speed greater than 55kts calibrated airspeed at full power in straight and level flight
7)has a stall speed that does not exceed 24kts

They do not have to be registred, nor does the pilot. But an operator of an ultralight must upon request let an FAA administration expect it to make sure it fits the criteria above.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-01-19 10:01pm

That kind of brings up an interesting question: does "empty" not include hydrogen or helium gas?

Otherwise, an airship would have a negative weight... hmm...

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-01-19 10:07pm

Crayz9000 wrote:That kind of brings up an interesting question: does "empty" not include hydrogen or helium gas?

Otherwise, an airship would have a negative weight... hmm...

With fixed wing aircraft, empty weight is the weight of the aircraft, with all installed equipment, including all fluids that are not removable. Empty weight does not include crew, passangers, cargo, uninstalled equipment, or fuel not in the sumps.

As to what empty weight is regarding airships, I have no clue.

Hyperion · Post by **Hyperion** » 2003-01-19 10:12pm

Here's the data so far:

General specs: ~30 feet long (tip to tip), ~8 feet diameter
Powered by a 3.5hp briggs snowblower engine
Gas cells: 4 or 5 6" diameter surplus weather balloons (from ebay)
Lifting gas: hydrogen

Framework will consist of 4 major beams (top, bottom, left, and right) (probably 2x4s), 4 sub beams (corners) (probably 2x2s), and cross supports (2x2s) between the major beams. Bolted together and tied together with rope. Inside will have a layer of cotton cloth of some type (whatever I get cheap), and the same will be on the outside.

Controls: 3 large main fins on the back, 1 rudder in front of the prop, 1 up and down control thingie behind that, and 2 4 foot "wings" on the sides to work as planes to adjust up and down motion.

Other: thin aluminum plating along the lowe 1/3 of the lifting bag assembly to protect it from things on the ground during landing and take off, and more importantly to keep sparks or fire from the engine from hitting the hydrogen. It will hopefully be able to carry 2 people, pilot and engine operator, no passengers.

Top speed will probably be around 10-30mph, at best, with a operation ceiling of probably around 500 feet.

I'm still in the process of drawing out the design.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-01-19 10:19pm

Well, here's a link that should help:
http://www1.faa.gov/certification/aircraft/airships.htm

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-19 10:25pm

Your planning to build a hydrogen filled airship, and fly on it? We'll know about the first flight when you stop positing for a few weeks. Extensive flash burns can take a while to heal.

I hope your taking things like gas expansion from heating into account with your design.

EmperorMing · Post by **EmperorMing** » 2003-01-19 10:34pm

I think you will want to change the lifting gas from hydrogen to helium. History has already shown what happens when you use hydrogen...

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-01-19 11:07pm

Hyperion wrote:I'm still in the process of drawing out the design.

If you are serious about building this thing, you should pay a visit to your local Flight Standards District Office before getting too involved. An FAA administrator could answer all your questions better than I or anybody else on this board could. He/she could also alert you to any problems you may encounter, or answer questions you wouldn't think of asking. If I remember correctly, there is a FSDO over in Renton.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-01-19 11:19pm

EmperorMing wrote:I think you will want to change the lifting gas from hydrogen to helium. History has already shown what happens when you use hydrogen...

If he shields it, I don't think he'll have much trouble. It's already been determined that the primary cause of the Hindenburg catastrophe was a highly flammable waterproofing chemical used on the canvas; static charges built up and ignited the canvas, which then lit up the hydrogen.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-20 12:03am

Crayz9000 wrote:
EmperorMing wrote:I think you will want to change the lifting gas from hydrogen to helium. History has already shown what happens when you use hydrogen...
If he shields it, I don't think he'll have much trouble. It's already been determined that the primary cause of the Hindenburg catastrophe was a highly flammable waterproofing chemical used on the canvas; static charges built up and ignited the canvas, which then lit up the hydrogen.

Fact remains that hydrogen can explode or burn and is not something you want to be working with as an amateur, especially when gas that's just as good can be easily obtained.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-01-20 12:07am

Sea Skimmer wrote:Fact remains that hydrogen can explode or burn and is not something you want to be working with as an amateur, especially when gas that's just as good can be easily obtained.

It looks like he's referring to cost here. All you need to produce hydrogen is a steady DC supply and plenty of water; helium is far harder to obtain.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-01-20 12:09am

Crayz9000 wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:Fact remains that hydrogen can explode or burn and is not something you want to be working with as an amateur, especially when gas that's just as good can be easily obtained.
It looks like he's referring to cost here. All you need to produce hydrogen is a steady DC supply and plenty of water; helium is far harder to obtain.

But it's also doesn't explode. Trying something like this as an amatuer with hydrogen seems needlessly risky to me.

m112880 · Post by **m112880** » 2003-01-20 01:41am

For airspace violations you can lose your license. I knew a guy who was flying at night and was not rated to and he was worried that the FAA were going to take his license

Captain tycho · Post by **Captain tycho** » 2003-01-20 01:48am

Hyperion wrote:I.E. do you need a license? Do they have to inspect the aircraft in question? For that matter, how much of a fine do you get for accidentally violating airspace?

And yes, these are serious questions, I kinda need'em answered for a project that me and a couple friends just started on...

Also, anyone here know the rules regarding small airships? (like 30 feet long and about 8 feet diameter)

You obviosuly HAVE to get a license.

Hyperion · Post by **Hyperion** » 2003-01-20 01:57am

Yes, I did take into account gas expansion, hence it's 8 feet diameter for the 6 foot diameter bags...

And yes, it's the cost. I do know the most important thing about using hydrogen: keep static and sparks away from it... Hence there's no modern plastic materials near the gasbags, in fact outside of bushings and zipties, there won't be any plastic on it, cheaper to do it this way as well.

Knowing the way I do things, it'll get about halfway done, I'll find a major structural flaw that I didn't find earlier, and scrap it on the spot.

Hyperion · Post by **Hyperion** » 2003-01-20 02:05am

Well, I'd already be breaking one major rule:

[q]4.48 Lifting gas
The lifting gas must be non-flammable.[/q]

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-01-20 08:04am

Hyperion wrote:Well, I'd already be breaking one major rule:

4.48 Lifting gas
The lifting gas must be non-flammable.

Which strikes me as a bad idea. In this age of airborne paranoia it's problem a bad idea to build an unlicensed and inlicenseable blimp and violate restricted airspace with it. I'll be waiting for the news that you were shot down by a pair of F-16s.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Anyone here know the FAA rules on unregistered aircraft?

Anyone here know the FAA rules on unregistered aircraft?

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Re: Anyone here know the FAA rules on unregistered aircraft?

Re: Anyone here know the FAA rules on unregistered aircraft?

Re: Anyone here know the FAA rules on unregistered aircraft?

Re: Anyone here know the FAA rules on unregistered aircraft?

Re: Anyone here know the FAA rules on unregistered aircraft?