Weird gun...

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-20 06:52pm

OK, I was reading the Popular Science 21st Century Soldier, and they have a very small mention of an unusual gun. Apparently, Lockheed Martin and Oerlikon are working ot what's called the Millenium Gun. It fires a 35mm round that dispenses 152 submunitions, which disperse in a cone shaped spray. It has a 1000 round/minute fire rate. If all this is accurate, I think the Phalanx has met its replacement.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-01-20 06:59pm

Gawd. This is a supposed to be a ship mounted CIWS, I gather.
Fiendish, I love it!

Hyperion · Post by **Hyperion** » 2003-01-20 07:06pm

Ah, flechette rounds... Evil little things, dreadfully effective at hamburgerizing a fleshy target.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-01-20 07:08pm

Hyperion wrote:Ah, flechette rounds... Evil little things, dreadfully effective at hamburgerizing a fleshy target.

Last I checked a Tupolev Backfire launched ASM was hardly a "fleshy target."

Phalanx met its match when Goalkeeper came out anyway. Metal Storm is my bet.

Raptor 597 · Post by **Raptor 597** » 2003-01-20 07:09pm

Nice, but I just have a weird feeling that if another first wold nation would take us it'd be devstating trench warfare. Or I'm paranoid.

Hyperion · Post by **Hyperion** » 2003-01-20 07:18pm

It would appear I misread something... There is a similar round for shotguns... Fires thousands of needles.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-01-20 07:20pm

The Dark wrote:OK, I was reading the Popular Science 21st Century Soldier, and they have a very small mention of an unusual gun. Apparently, Lockheed Martin and Oerlikon are working ot what's called the Millenium Gun. It fires a 35mm round that dispenses 152 submunitions, which disperse in a cone shaped spray. It has a 1000 round/minute fire rate. If all this is accurate, I think the Phalanx has met its replacement.

Gun CIWS systems are rapidly falling in disfavour amongst the world's militaries. The effective range is too short, things like Rolling Airframe Missile are now replacing them.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-20 07:22pm

Hyperion wrote:It would appear I misread something... There is a similar round for shotguns... Fires thousands of needles.

True, but this fires from 35mm rounds at 1000rpm. Here's the exact quote:

21st Century Soldier wrote:Destroyers may also get some added firepower for dealing with close-range attacks. Possible options include the Millenium Gun, developed by Lockheed Martin and the Swiss firm Oerlikon Contraves. The Millenium Gun creates a wall of steel in a rapid multipart process. First, it fires a special 35-mm round. This round then instantly dispenses 152 subprojectiles, which form an expanding, cone-shaped phalanx that shreds its target. Capable of firing 1,000 rounds per minute, the Millenium can destroy small surface craft and even sea-skimming cruise missiles.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-01-20 07:35pm

Meh. Free Electron Laser at several tens of thousands of watts in the ultraviolet frequency, pulsed. You got a lot of dead missile. Could probably slice the bridge off the nearest enemy ship too animé style.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-01-20 07:38pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
Hyperion wrote:Ah, flechette rounds... Evil little things, dreadfully effective at hamburgerizing a fleshy target.
Last I checked a Tupolev Backfire launched ASM was hardly a "fleshy target."

Indeed, it requires a SAM to effectively engage.

Phalanx met its match when Goalkeeper came out anyway. Metal Storm is my bet.

All three of those suck at engaging the Russian-style ASMs.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-01-20 07:39pm

phongn wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:
Hyperion wrote:Ah, flechette rounds... Evil little things, dreadfully effective at hamburgerizing a fleshy target.
Last I checked a Tupolev Backfire launched ASM was hardly a "fleshy target."
Indeed, it requires a SAM to effectively engage.

Phalanx met its match when Goalkeeper came out anyway. Metal Storm is my bet.
All three of those suck at engaging the Russian-style ASMs.

Oh joy...

*Unveils the FEL*

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-01-20 07:40pm

I laugh in your face if you claim that an AShM, Russian or otherwise, can withstand even a few rounds of 20mm (let alone 30mm) fire.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-01-20 07:41pm

Metal Storm guns can get something like 10,000,000 rounds a minute.. X_X

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-01-20 07:42pm

Howedar wrote:I laugh in your face if you claim that an AShM, Russian or otherwise, can withstand even a few rounds of 20mm (let alone 30mm) fire.

They are big and very fast missiles. I'd think it best to be on the safe side.

Having seen The Sum of All Fears last week I hope the Phalanx system shown onscreen was nothing like reality.

Missiles or lasers or particle beams are far better on big nuke ships.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-01-20 07:44pm

I do not dispute that RAM is a step up, but 20mm definately will kill a missile. Its problem is a severe lack of range.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-01-20 07:45pm

Howedar wrote:I laugh in your face if you claim that an AShM, Russian or otherwise, can withstand even a few rounds of 20mm (let alone 30mm) fire.

Said CIWS fire will detonate the warhead. The shrapnel and remains of the missile will continue on and proceed to cause much harm to the ship.

The USN found this out the hard way in tests involving the target ship Decater (sp?) - light antiship missiles were shredded, them the remains kept going .

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-01-20 07:45pm

Yes, shrapnel will keep going. I do not disupte that. I was afraid you were claiming that large Russian AShMs were impervious to light cannon fire.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-01-20 07:47pm

Howedar wrote:Yes, shrapnel will keep going. I do not disupte that. I was afraid you were claiming that large Russian AShMs were impervious to light cannon fire.

I never stated that. Though the AShMs may be outside the engagement envelope of Phalanx (too fast for the onboard systems), not sure.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-01-20 07:50pm

I know.

They are within the engagement envelope of Phalanx.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-20 08:15pm

kojikun wrote:Metal Storm guns can get something like 10,000,000 rounds a minute.. X_X

21st Century Soldier wrote:Metal Storm claims that its guns could fire at speeds up to 1 million rounds per minute.

That's what's theoretically possible. Current rate of fire is 260 rpm.

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-01-20 08:58pm

The Dark wrote:
kojikun wrote:Metal Storm guns can get something like 10,000,000 rounds a minute.. X_X
21st Century Soldier wrote:Metal Storm claims that its guns could fire at speeds up to 1 million rounds per minute.
That's what's theoretically possible. Current rate of fire is 260 rpm.

ACtually they have fired test beds at a million rounds a minute, but they were multi-barrel prototypes.

I believe 260,000 rounds a minute is the current maximum for a single barrel test bed.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-20 10:50pm

weemadando wrote:
The Dark wrote:
kojikun wrote:Metal Storm guns can get something like 10,000,000 rounds a minute.. X_X
21st Century Soldier wrote:Metal Storm claims that its guns could fire at speeds up to 1 million rounds per minute.
That's what's theoretically possible. Current rate of fire is 260 rpm.
ACtually they have fired test beds at a million rounds a minute, but they were multi-barrel prototypes.

I believe 260,000 rounds a minute is the current maximum for a single barrel test bed.

Ah...my sources are out of date, apparently. Multi-barrel's the way to go anyway. Decrease in wear and increase in sustainable fire rate.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-01-20 11:55pm

dark, you actually dont use the same barrel. once a given number of bullets are used, you throw the barrel away like you do cartridge casings and clips.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-21 12:03am

kojikun wrote:dark, you actually dont use the same barrel. once a given number of bullets are used, you throw the barrel away like you do cartridge casings and clips.

I know. But gatling allows the barrels to cool slightly between firing, decreasing thermal warp and increasing durability of the barrel. A single-barrel gun is inherently lower in rate of fire and durability. That's why we went from things like the F-8 Crusader with 4 Colt 20mm single-barrel machine guns to the F-104 Starfighter with a single 20mm six-barrel Vulcan cannon.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-21 01:37am

The Dark wrote:
weemadando wrote:
The Dark wrote:That's what's theoretically possible. Current rate of fire is 260 rpm.
ACtually they have fired test beds at a million rounds a minute, but they were multi-barrel prototypes.

I believe 260,000 rounds a minute is the current maximum for a single barrel test bed.
Ah...my sources are out of date, apparently. Multi-barrel's the way to go anyway. Decrease in wear and increase in sustainable fire rate.

Still shit for range until you go up to a 3 inch or more caliber. At that point there is none, such guns take up far to much space and weight, and require guided ammunition to be effective anyway. At that point your better off skipping the whole gun/turret aspect and mounting a missile launcher.

That what most every fleet is doing. Lasers will evenutally serve along side them.

Firing 260,000 round per minute is nice, except you'd g through abused amounts of ammo and the fire control system is still not going to be on target with the first rounds. And once you do hit, a half second and 2,100 rounds later, the wreckage will still hit your ship and do major damage. Keep in mind your average CIWS mount only has about 1500 per gun.

A mach 2 missile must be exploded at least 2,000 meters away for safety, mach 3 at 3,000 meters. A light auto cannon can't reach out that far accurately. Firing even more ammo closer is just pointless.

There multi barrel metal storm weapons also have no problem no one ever addresses, reloading requires a barrel change! That’s bad enough on a handgun, but with multiple ton's of barrels on a moving warship is going to be a almost impossible to do by hand, you'd need an automatic system.

Once again you've taken up more then enough space and weight for a group of far more effective VLS missiles.

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