StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Site I found here

Since this board is full of people who deal in nothing but Real Facts, let's hash out what the truth is. Everything in that link seems credible.

The arguments on that site all sidestep the fundamental question: is it right to penalize people for holding certain political views? We criminalize actions, not views. It even quotes McCarthy's infamous diatribe against "atheistic communism" without comment, as if it's perfectly natural to ostracize, criminalize, and generally oppress people for having unpopular religious and political views.

McCarthy believed that it was OK, and so do these people, apparently. Much like Catholic Inquisition apologists, the article completely ignores the question of whether it's right to criminalize political views and focuses on the question of how fairly he prosecuted those political views, ASSUMING that we accept their criminality. That is the underlying dodge beneath the entire, long-winded article.

For example, one of the article's best dodges is to ask if McCarthy was right in going after numerous people in the State Department. It answers "yes he was" and presents as proof the fact that most of the people under investigation either resigned or were dismissed as a result of his investigation. Is the circularity of this argument not painfully obvious?

You're kidding me.

"It was also during the mid-to-late 1940s that communist sympathizers in the State Department played a key role in the subjugation of mainland China by the Reds. "It is my judgment, and I was in the State Department at the time," said former Ambassador William D. Pawley, "that this whole fiasco, the loss of China and the subsequent difficulties with which the United States has been faced, was the result of mistaken policy of Dean Acheson, Phil Jessup, [Owen] Lattimore, John Carter Vincent, John Service, John Davies, [O.E.] Clubb, and others." Asked if he thought the mistaken policy was the result of "sincere mistakes of judgment," Pawley replied: "No, I don't."

That sounds credible to you? "A bunch of commies in the State Department lost China to the reds" ... absurd self-important bullshit, with a healthy dose of paranoia, probably from a senile old McCarthyite.

Q. So was McCarthy right or wrong about the State Department?

A. He was right. Of the 110 names that McCarthy gave the Tydings Committee to be investigated, 62 of them were employed by the State Department at the time of the hearings. The committee cleared everyone on McCarthy's list, but within a year the State Department started proceedings against 49 of the 62. By the end of 1954, 81 of those on McCarthy's list had left the government either by dismissal or resignation.

Utterly absurd. They're slandered, their names are handed over, and this is proof that McCarthy was right when they resign or were dismissed? There couldn't have been any other reason of course, no, they were all commies. Fuckwits ...

And then of course you have the crowning jewel of bullshit:

One may agree or disagree with McCarthy's statement that America's steady retreat from victory "must be the product of a great conspiracy, a conspiracy on a scale so immense as to dwarf any previous such venture in the history of man. A conspiracy of infamy so black that, when it is finally exposed, its principals shall be forever deserving of the maledictions of all honest men." That statement was very controversial in 1951, but after no-win wars in Korea and Vietnam, decades of Soviet expansionism throughout the world, the weakening of America's military, and its increasing subservience to United Nations authority, it doesn't seem so controversial anymore.

*Vympel rolling on the floor laughing his ass off*- nothing like some good ol fashioned "blame the commies for our own dumbass mistakes".

Regarding unpopular views:

Orson Welles, like many others, was blacklisted for having worked with a Communist Party member, by the committee called the "House of Un-American Activities Committee", and refusing to name names and inform on others in the entertainment industry (not surprisingly, considering he'd destroy their careers also).

Witch-hunt indeed.

The entire sad little historical episode was tied up in the implicit assumption that if you ever been *near* communism, then you were a threat to the national security of the nation.

Caused my favorite German import to move to France (Oh the horror), because she felt that we were going the route that her homeland had gone.....

Xisiqomelir wrote:Site I found here

Since this board is full of people who deal in nothing but Real Facts, let's hash out what the truth is. Everything in that link seems credible.

Joe McCarthy, when you seriously and bluntly evaluate him, deserves all the condemnation he gets.

He was a low-bit political hack who went to far - he recognized a real threat, but he carried it too far for political ends - and alienated and poisoned the real effort of commie-hunting for more than a generation, and furthermore allowed the Extreme Left to operate unimpeded, often with financial ties to the Soviet Bloc, thanks to the awesome damage he inflicted with his fanaticism on any effort to seriously examine Communist penetration of the American governmetn.

You know what IS mis-aligned? HUAC. The House Unamerican Affairs Committee did not even have McCarthy on it - let alone the odd claim that he chaired it - and was a serious organization that operated under established laws in investigating actually Communist infiltration. It created no "Black Lists".

But then Joe McCarthy came along and made ludicrous claims of hundreds of commies in the State Department, or elsewhere, and kept up the rhetoric until there was a panic. When the backlash finally hit him, he only could muster one name: George Marshal. When he made that allegation, he was nearly laughed out of D.C.

McCarthy is little more than a humour topic; his damage was indirect, and his behaviour a farce.

Agreed. McCarthy did more damage to the political right than all the communists in America could have ever hoped to do. Even today, when you blast someone for espousing communist views, the reply is, "McCarthyism!" He was a drunken hack who never should have been elected county commissioner, let alone senator.

It's too bad, because McCarthy did do SOME (key word here, folks) good work getting Stalin's little helpers out of the U.S. government. Too bad he had to resort to fanaticism. Worse yet, he gave the commie pigs victim status and moral high ground.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:

Xisiqomelir wrote:Site I found here

Since this board is full of people who deal in nothing but Real Facts, let's hash out what the truth is. Everything in that link seems credible.

Joe McCarthy, when you seriously and bluntly evaluate him, deserves all the condemnation he gets.

He was a low-bit political hack who went to far - he recognized a real threat, but he carried it too far for political ends - and alienated and poisoned the real effort of commie-hunting for more than a generation, and furthermore allowed the Extreme Left to operate unimpeded, often with financial ties to the Soviet Bloc, thanks to the awesome damage he inflicted with his fanaticism on any effort to seriously examine Communist penetration of the American governmetn.

You know what IS mis-aligned? HUAC. The House Unamerican Affairs Committee did not even have McCarthy on it - let alone the odd claim that he chaired it - and was a serious organization that operated under established laws in investigating actually Communist infiltration. It created no "Black Lists".

But then Joe McCarthy came along and made ludicrous claims of hundreds of commies in the State Department, or elsewhere, and kept up the rhetoric until there was a panic. When the backlash finally hit him, he only could muster one name: George Marshal. When he made that allegation, he was nearly laughed out of D.C.

McCarthy is little more than a humour topic; his damage was indirect, and his behaviour a farce.

Historical note; the HUAC was actually not founded to root out communism and such, it was founded to keep an eye on groups like the KKK. Of course, when it turned on the left, suddenly it became evil.

Speaking as a son of McCarthy's home state, I've gotta say that the cure was worse than the disease. Restricting the freedom of belief and expression in the name of curtailing forces that oppose those precise same things is farcical and would be something to laugh about if it had not destroyed so many lives.

Vympel wrote:"House of Un-American Activities Committee"

House Un-American Activities Committee; not House of, House being short for House of Representatives.

The fact that such a committee ever actually existed is a blot on the honor and the history of America, and the Americans who supported and condoned it should be ashamed.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Vympel wrote:"House of Un-American Activities Committee"

House Un-American Activities Committee; not House of, House being short for House of Representatives.

The fact that such a committee ever actually existed is a blot on the honor and the history of America, and the Americans who supported and condoned it should be ashamed.

I'm too busy hanging my head in shame over the Homeland Security Department to worry about it.

Secret Evidence! Infrared Survellience! Wiretaps! Gov't Hacking! Yay!

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Vympel wrote:"House of Un-American Activities Committee"

House Un-American Activities Committee; not House of, House being short for House of Representatives.

The fact that such a committee ever actually existed is a blot on the honor and the history of America, and the Americans who supported and condoned it should be ashamed.

I still think the Indian stuff the century before that was a bigger blight on America. And the new government agencies, such as the Information Awareness office, are pretty close in comparison with McCarthy.

lol.

I never said there weren't other blots, now.

Vympel wrote:Regarding unpopular views:

Orson Welles, like many others, was blacklisted for having worked with a Communist Party member, by the committee called the "House of Un-American Activities Committee", and refusing to name names and inform on others in the entertainment industry (not surprisingly, considering he'd destroy their careers also).

Witch-hunt indeed.

The entire sad little historical episode was tied up in the implicit assumption that if you ever been *near* communism, then you were a threat to the national security of the nation.

Well, I think the implication was that Communism inevitably lead to treachery, because of Russian sympathies (Slippery slope, I know)

Thanks to all for pointing out the logical flaws. I still suck at debate

Durandal wrote:I'm too busy hanging my head in shame over the Homeland Security Department to worry about it.

I will not allow anyone to badmouth the Fatherland Security Department.

HemlockGrey wrote:Secret Evidence! Infrared Survellience! Wiretaps! Gov't Hacking! Yay!

Fnord.

Ah, yes the Homeland Security Department. Anyone who voted for Bush with the belief that he would be a lighter spender ought to hang their head in shame...

Illuminatus Primus wrote: House Un-American Activities Committee; not House of, House being short for House of Representatives.

The fact that such a committee ever actually existed is a blot on the honor and the history of America, and the Americans who supported and condoned it should be ashamed.

Tell that to my old neighbor, Alma Phaff, who worked on the HUAC for
decades as a congressional staffer....they had to be absolutely sure
that they had their target dead to rights before accusing them....or the
president would tear them a new asshole....

I rather like this one.

Heh heh ... good one! But the scary thing about the IAO logo is that it wasn't a joke. It was their real logo before they covered it up ... *shudder*

MKSheppard wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote: House Un-American Activities Committee; not House of, House being short for House of Representatives.

The fact that such a committee ever actually existed is a blot on the honor and the history of America, and the Americans who supported and condoned it should be ashamed.

Tell that to my old neighbor, Alma Phaff, who worked on the HUAC for
decades as a congressional staffer....they had to be absolutely sure
that they had their target dead to rights before accusing them....or the president would tear them a new asshole....

It's not how they went about it, so much as what they were accusing you of. Being "anti-American" is not a legitimate charge to take someone to court over.

Funny how Shep completely missed the point I made way back in the very first response to this thread, eh? We criminalize actions, not political views.