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TOKYO - Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi on Friday renewed demands that Russia hand over several disputed islands to end a spat that has prevented the two countries from agreeing to a treaty formally ending World War II hostilities.

Koizumi said the bilateral tug-of-war over the islands - which Tokyo calls the Northern Territories - remains a major obstacle in bilateral relations.

But he struck a more conciliatory tone from past years, stressing that Tokyo and Moscow are working together on a range of global issues, including nuclear nonproliferation and environmental protection.

Koizumi, speaking in Tokyo at the annual government-sponsored Northern Territories Day rally, also noted Japan's pledge of aid to help Russia dispose of its weapons-grade plutonium.

"Japan is at odds with Russia over the Northern Territories. But there are many areas, both at the bilateral and global level, in which we must cooperate," he said.

The rally coincides with the anniversary of an 1855 Japan-Russia friendship treaty that gave Japan possession of the islands, which the Soviet Union seized near the end of World War II. Japan claims the seizure was illegal.

Near the Russian Embassy in Tokyo, ultra-rightists in black trucks adorned with Japan's Rising Sun flag shouted slogans and blared martial music at a barricade manned by dozens of riot police.

"Return the Northern Islands!" they yelled over megaphones. There were no reports of violence or arrests.

Although Tokyo and Moscow established diplomatic relations in 1956, the territorial dispute has kept them from signing a post-World War II peace treaty.

But recently, Koizumi has sought to curry favor with Russian President Vladimir Putin, hoping for access to Russia's vast energy resources and greater support in pressuring North Korea to scrap its nuclear weapons development program.

Last month, Koizumi and Putin signed a pact in Moscow to expand economic and political ties and work toward resolving their differences over the islands.

The islands are part of a chain that extends from Japan's northernmost island of Hokkaido to Russia's eastern Kamchatka Peninsula, and are surrounded by prime fishing waters.

About 17,000 residents, nearly all Russians, live on the islands.

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My thoughts. With a nearly all of the population of 17,000 being Russians, there's not a chance in hell Japan will get those islands back. They should stop whining for something they'll never get, especially considering it's good fishn' and Russia's economy needs all the help it can get (well which country's doesn't but anyway).

Japan still has rightists? WTF?!

Japan purchased the Kuril Island chain from Russia in the 19th century. They treated them the same as they treated their colony on Salkhlin Island, with the exception of the four closest to Hokkaido (which had never been Russian territory). Those were considered part of the Home Islands. At Yalta, Roosevelt said Stalin could take Salkhlin and the Kurils back from Japan. Stalin interpreted this to mean everything including those four Northern Territory islands, and for 50 years, the Russians have been loudly proclaiming that those islands are as much a part of Russian territory as Red Square. The Japanese, in the meantime, have spent 50 years procliaming the islands are as Japanese as the Emperor's Palace. The issue is so sticky that a peace conference once broke up over the definition of the word "disputed territories". The islands aren't important enough to make a real effort to settle the issue, but they're enough of a patriotic issue that it would be politically damaging for one side to give up a claim to them.

Considering that they won't even mention the Nanking Massacre in their school textbooks, and their prime minister regularly visits a shrine commemorating war criminals, rightism is more prevalent in Japan than most people think.

Aye.

Nanking gets a sentence worth in most textbooks. The Holocaust? Easily several pages with one sentence adding it wasn't just Jews after they talk about just the Jews.

Nor do they mention the fact that they used PoW's in slavery, basically killed 60% of the PoW's.

Those fuckers in Jpan need to be taught a lesson.

Hell, the government there even assasinated a textbook writer who dared to include more than a passing reference to the Nanking Massacre and the PoW conditions.

Ted wrote:Hell, the government there even assasinated a textbook writer who dared to include more than a passing reference to the Nanking Massacre and the PoW conditions.

Wait, when was this?

You didn't know that there is a lot of people in Japan that are still ultra-patriotic? The population as a whole is very patriotic and leaning to the right in that way.

phongn wrote:

Ted wrote:Hell, the government there even assasinated a textbook writer who dared to include more than a passing reference to the Nanking Massacre and the PoW conditions.

Wait, when was this?

It was a while ago, 10~15 years ago I think.

Ted wrote:

phongn wrote:

Ted wrote:Hell, the government there even assasinated a textbook writer who dared to include more than a passing reference to the Nanking Massacre and the PoW conditions.

Wait, when was this?

It was a while ago, 10~15 years ago I think.

You are saying the govt ordered a hit on one of its own citizens? Got any references?


The Japanese have groups of extreme nationalists like anyplace else. If I was Russia I would not give the islands back. If all the citizens there were Japanese I might agree to it, but not now.

TrailerParkJawa wrote:

Ted wrote:

phongn wrote: Wait, when was this?

It was a while ago, 10~15 years ago I think.

You are saying the govt ordered a hit on one of its own citizens? Got any references?

It was either the government, or the government knew of the plot and allowed it to continue.

Ted's just chock-full of useful supporting facts...

Ted wrote: Nor do they mention the fact that they used PoW's in slavery, basically killed 60% of the PoW's.

Obviously the POWs.The americans do not really give a damn shit about what the japanese did in China,which make what they did to the POWs disappear in comparison, except mentioning Nanking or little else to pretend that they care.
And of course after 50 years of undeclared wars and after having made preemption the national strategy they still are angered about Pearl Harbour.
Pathetic.

Ted wrote:
Those fuckers in Jpan need to be taught a lesson.

Of course.The USA must "taugh a lesson" to Japan because they do not write their moronic history books according to american wishes.
Brilliant.What about beating them with a big stick like good old cavemen?

Ted wrote:
Hell, the government there even assasinated a textbook writer who dared to include more than a passing reference to the Nanking Massacre and the PoW conditions.

This is a pretty heavy charge.Anything to back it?
Of course if we go in the conspiracies realm I have a lot of pretty funny stuff.

Admiral Piett wrote:

Ted wrote: Nor do they mention the fact that they used PoW's in slavery, basically killed 60% of the PoW's.

Obviously the POWs.The americans do not really give a damn shit about what the japanese did in China,which make what they did to the POWs disappear in comparison, except mentioning Nanking or little else to pretend that they care.

What about the US demands that Japan extract themselves from China, especially Manchuko? That was a slap in the face to the Imperial Japanese government.

And of course after 50 years of undeclared wars and after having made preemption the national strategy they still are angered about Pearl Harbour.

Most people aren't angered about Pearl Harbor anymore, or that's the general feeling I have in the area.

Admiral Piett wrote:

Ted wrote: Nor do they mention the fact that they used PoW's in slavery, basically killed 60% of the PoW's.

Obviously the POWs.The americans do not really give a damn shit about what the japanese did in China,which make what they did to the POWs disappear in comparison, except mentioning Nanking or little else to pretend that they care.
And of course after 50 years of undeclared wars and after having made preemption the national strategy they still are angered about Pearl Harbour.
Pathetic.

How about the fact that they haven't compensated the PoW's and their families, yet the Germans have, and have given hundreds of millions of dollars worth of compensation.

phongn wrote:What about the US demands that Japan extract themselves from China, especially Manchuko? That was a slap in the face to the Imperial Japanese government.

Of course.That was one of the reason that led them to war in first place.But as seen above most of the americans consider what happened to the POWs the main Japan fault.While instead it is dwarfed by what they did in China.

Ted wrote: How about the fact that they haven't compensated the PoW's and their families, yet the Germans have, and have given hundreds of millions of dollars worth of compensation.

And when that happened?
I have never heard this,I am curious.What exactly are you speaking about?
Typically the germans treated american prisoners according to the Geneva conventions.Of course there may have been a few exceptions but I have never heard that they paid compensations for this.

I don't know if Admiral Piett knows this but Ted is Canadian and is firmly anti-american, just saying cause it sounds to me that you think he's an American.

Admiral Piett wrote:

phongn wrote:What about the US demands that Japan extract themselves from China, especially Manchuko? That was a slap in the face to the Imperial Japanese government.

Of course.That was one of the reason that led them to war in first place.But as seen above most of the americans consider what happened to the POWs the main Japan fault.While instead it is dwarfed by what they did in China.

They're both bad, but Japanese treatment of POWs affected the USA more than the Japanese treatment of Chinese civilians, hence why it gets more press. To say that the US didn't give a damn about Japanese treatment of the Chinese is wrong, however.

I see no reason in hell for Russia to give these islands back.

Sea Skimmer wrote:I see no reason in hell for Russia to give these islands back.

As far as I know Russia wants those islands in their possession so that they can keep other countries out of the Sea of Oshtok (?), where their nukes subs come and go. Makes a nice natural barrier.

EmperorMing wrote:

Sea Skimmer wrote:I see no reason in hell for Russia to give these islands back.

As far as I know Russia wants those islands in their possession so that they can keep other countries out of the Sea of Oshtok (?), where their nukes subs come and go. Makes a nice natural barrier.

Pretty much. Though US subs enter the sea all the time. However prestige, fishing rights and a few other things are major factors.

Ted wrote:Nor do they mention the fact that they used PoW's in slavery, basically killed 60% of the PoW's.

Those fuckers in Jpan need to be taught a lesson.

Hell, the government there even assasinated a textbook writer who dared to include more than a passing reference to the Nanking Massacre and the PoW conditions.

The Japanese used POWs for more than slavery. They were used for testing biological and chemical weapons, the aforementioned slavery, and even some kind of sick sword practice on the Bataan Death March. The Japanese refuse to even teach WW2 in their schools. This MUST be dealt with, they must know what happened during that war, whether they won or lost. Look at the US, we never won Vietnam, but we hear about everything that happened over there. Why can't they learn about what happened in WW2? Is it against their code of so called 'honor'? I don't know about you, but I don't consider the Japanese military very honorable after reading about what happened to the Chinese civilians and American/British POWs.

Oh, and Japan never signed the Geneva Convention, so they treated their prisoners however they wanted, so long as word didn't get out to the US. There were no POW camp inspections by the Red Cross there.

Admiral Piett wrote:

Ted wrote: How about the fact that they haven't compensated the PoW's and their families, yet the Germans have, and have given hundreds of millions of dollars worth of compensation.

And when that happened?
I have never heard this,I am curious.What exactly are you speaking about?
Typically the germans treated american prisoners according to the Geneva conventions.Of course there may have been a few exceptions but I have never heard that they paid compensations for this.

I don't know where you read your history. The Germans, especially towards the end of the war, normally put their prisoners on forced marches, they were underfed, and they were forced to work in military industries. I suggest you read the book 'We Were Each Other's Prisoners'. It has first hand interviews with German and American POWs. The German POWs in America were, overall, treated accordingly to the Geneva Convention. The Germans, generally, didn't really care about the Geneva Convention. There were even American's that were stuck in some of the Concentration Camps, believe it or not. There were American soldiers in the Holocaust.

I've heard of a crazy instance where German PoWs were allowed in a restaurant in America, but the restaurant would refuse to serve a black couple.

EDIT: Now that I think about it more, I believe it was even a black soldier!

The Japanese have always had an ultra-far right.

Now they are getting more powerful due to them being allowed to operate more publically.

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:I've heard of a crazy instance where German PoWs were allowed in a restaurant in America, but the restaurant would refuse to serve a black couple.

EDIT: Now that I think about it more, I believe it was even a black soldier!

Racism was very much alive in WW2, unfortunately - even for our boys in the uniform