Europe

[Nathan F]

Is Europe biased in their views against the United States?

From my experience talking with European citizens, I have found that the general view of the US is very negative. So, yes, my opinion IS that the MAJORITY (Not all, but most) of Europe is biased against the United States.

I mean, honestly, how often do you hear a country other than Britain say something positive about the U.S.?

[Darth Wong]

Is Europe biased in their views against the United States?

Define "bias" in this context. Are you saying they are ignorant of facts or deliberately twisting them around?

From my experience talking with European citizens, I have found that the general view of the US is very negative. So, yes, my opinion IS that the MAJORITY (Not all, but most) of Europe is biased against the United States.

Your logic is like this:

1) Europeans don't like America
2) It is impossible to be rational and not like America
3) Therefore, Europeans must be biased

Personally, I don't have as much anti-Americanism as some Europeans do. However, your logic is in serious need of rework. If you want to show that Europeans are biased, you need to do better than that.

I mean, honestly, how often do you hear a country other than Britain say something positive about the U.S.?

How often do you hear an American say something positive about a European country?

[ArmorPierce]

Yes, they are biased. There isn't a problem with being biased against something as long as you don't let it affect your views on something. Mike Wong is biased, he admits to it, but he is able to disassociate himself with it to look at something objectively. However, in this case, Germany and France isn't looking at the US objectively.

[Coyote]

While I think most Europeans are biased, I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that Europeans are getting news from biased sources; news agencies have agendas of their own and we lose sight of that.

We don't hear of another country saying nice things about us just as surely as we don't hear anything about the Mississippi River when it isn't flooding. It's not drama. Do you realize that in Israel there are almost as many US flags flying in the streets as there are Israeli? We don't hear about it though. A few other countries really love us, but we don't hear about it.

Kuwaitis like us, imagine that, and in Soldiers magazine it turns out that many of the Bosnians and Kosovars really feel comforted by the prescence of America troop there and want us to stay. The country people of Panama loved us, but the city people hated us.

Individual Europeans and Australians I've hung around with were great, and we all had mutual respect. Before I travelled the world I thought I knew all the stuff that was important, but after being outside for so long I realize just how disconnected form global reality Americans truly are. It is like we really have two worlds on one planet here. The difference is sometimes profoundly disturbing.

I think a lot of the Euro gov'ts take a stance opposite of us just to prove that they are not puppets, lapdogs or lackeys.

[Hamel]

While I think most Europeans are biased, I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that Europeans are getting news from biased sources; news agencies have agendas of their own and we lose sight of that.

Eurpean news sources only seem biased because our media constantly omits what they don't want the public to know about.

Our media is about as biased as you can get. It isn't liberal bias, either.

[Nathan F]

Hmm, I didn't word that very well, Mike.

I would define Bias in this specific case as having a pre-conception against the U.S., therefore making it hard to look at the U.S. objectively, from their point of view, and that the general outlook on the U.S. is a negative light.

I do not mean that they are deliberatly twisting facts around, but, they are subconciously looking at the U.S. with a definite pre-conception against us, as previously stated.

The general outlook that I see from the European community is a negative one. And I mean in ALL areas, not just the war with Iraq.

As to the U.S. in general being biased against Europe, it most likely is. I try my best to look at the situation objectively, and have found, IMHO, that the majority of Europeans are biased (in the context stated above) against the United States.

Maybe I should reword this to "Germany, France, and the Netherlands" (Germany and France being the obvious, and Netherlands because I have spoken to people who showed this bias that are from there).

[Joe]

I'm an American, I don't support the war in Iraq, I don't support most American military adventures, but I'm not blind. Anyone can see that Europe is biased against the U.S., not just on the basis of foreign policy, but on issues like the economy and the environment as well.

[Joe]

How often do you hear an American say something positive about a European country?

Well, let's see; we're rountinely likened to barbarians due to the undeserved air of cultural superiority that pervades Europe, we're routinely labeled as warmongering imperialists by countries that we have bailed out more than once, we're routinely criticized for our treatment of women & minorities despite progressive efforts, we're rountinely made out to be greedy plutocrats who have no concern for anyone but ourselves, and we're routinely bashed for our failure to adopt the insane Kyoto treaty. All this from various Europeans.

Yes, I know this statement is sweeping, and generalizes a bit much, but can't you understand our reluctance to compliment countries that for all intents and purposes, do not appear to like us very much?

[Darth Wong]

How often do you hear an American say something positive about a European country?

Well, let's see; we're rountinely likened to barbarians due to the undeserved air of cultural superiority that pervades Europe, we're routinely labeled as warmongering imperialists by countries that we have bailed out more than once, we're routinely criticized for our treatment of women & minorities despite progressive efforts, we're rountinely made out to be greedy plutocrats who have no concern for anyone but ourselves, and we're routinely bashed for our failure to adopt the insane Kyoto treaty. All this from various Europeans.

Hmmmm ... when American citizens say similar things (and many have), do you say they're anti-American too?

Yes, I know this statement is sweeping, and generalizes a bit much, but can't you understand our reluctance to compliment countries that for all intents and purposes, do not appear to like us very much?

The "he started it" defense is childish and ineffective, as the determination of who "started" a long-running feud of prejudice is not only difficult but irrelevant.

I certainly won't deny that Europeans tend to come at us with a sense of cultural superiority that is often based on longevity, not merit. However, they are also legitimately ahead of us in many social areas (Canada often sitting somewhere between the US and Europe on many of these issues), particularly in terms of things like work relations (honestly, the way European companies treat their employees and the way North American companies treat their employees is like night and day) and secularism (America is the world's great leader in creationism; nothing to be proud of). They also tend to have more appreciation for differing cultures by necessity of geographical proximity, whereas Fortress America sits between two oceans and is perfectly content to have a self-contained, insular culture.

I don't think it's as simple as you make it seem. Besides, much of the heightened anti-Europe sentiment right now is probably because of France, and much of the heightened anti-US sentiment right now is probably because of fear. When the Big Dog bares his teeth, people get intimidated and this fosters a sense that they're being pushed around.

[Captain tycho]

Name another country in the world that has given out as much aid as we have. Our soldiers died to defend Kuwait, our soldiers died defending Seoul. We have given out billions in aid and have sent voluteers all over the world to help out. We have doctors in Africa helping to fight against HIV. The list gets longer....
But, really, do you see any other countries like that?
We have been at the frontline of civil rights and women's rights for decades, as well as have been at the technological forefront.
Why do you think so many people try to get in the US?
Because it's a much better place than the rest of the world.
Those European snobs can go fuck themselves.

[Nathan F]

Very good points, Tycho.

<edit> I see you added that last line since I last looked. That could have been done without, as it makes your points look bad now </edit>

[Darth Wong]

Name another country in the world that has given out as much aid as we have. Our soldiers died to defend Kuwait, our soldiers died defending Seoul. We have given out billions in aid and have sent voluteers all over the world to help out. We have doctors in Africa helping to fight against HIV. The list gets longer....
But, really, do you see any other countries like that?
We have been at the frontline of civil rights and women's rights for decades, as well as have been at the technological forefront.

America has its strong points and its bad points, like any nation.

Why do you think so many people try to get in the US?
Because it's a much better place than the rest of the world.

I think you're going a bit too far there. It's a much better place than much of the world, but there are perfectly legitimate reasons why one might want to live in Switzerland, Canada, or one of the other industrialized nations rather than the US.

Those European snobs can go fuck themselves.

Well yes, Euro-snobs do have a problem, don't they?

[Joe]

How often do you hear an American say something positive about a European country?

Well, let's see; we're rountinely likened to barbarians due to the undeserved air of cultural superiority that pervades Europe, we're routinely labeled as warmongering imperialists by countries that we have bailed out more than once, we're routinely criticized for our treatment of women & minorities despite progressive efforts, we're rountinely made out to be greedy plutocrats who have no concern for anyone but ourselves, and we're routinely bashed for our failure to adopt the insane Kyoto treaty. All this from various Europeans.

Hmmmm ... when American citizens say similar things (and many have), do you say they're anti-American too?

Yes, I know this statement is sweeping, and generalizes a bit much, but can't you understand our reluctance to compliment countries that for all intents and purposes, do not appear to like us very much?

The "he started it" defense is childish and ineffective, as the determination of who "started" a long-running feud of prejudice is not only difficult but irrelevant.

I certainly won't deny that Europeans tend to come at us with a sense of cultural superiority that is often based on longevity, not merit. However, they are also legitimately ahead of us in many social areas (Canada often sitting somewhere between the US and Europe on many of these issues), particularly in terms of things like work relations (honestly, the way European companies treat their employees and the way North American companies treat their employees is like night and day) and secularism (America is the world's great leader in creationism; nothing to be proud of). They also tend to have more appreciation for differing cultures by necessity of geographical proximity, whereas Fortress America sits between two oceans and is perfectly content to have a self-contained, insular culture.

I don't think it's as simple as you make it seem. Besides, much of the heightened anti-Europe sentiment right now is probably because of France, and much of the heightened anti-US sentiment right now is probably because of fear. When the Big Dog bares his teeth, people get intimidated and this fosters a sense that they're being pushed around.

Well, I never really said anyone was anti-American; having a consistent bias against America is quite different, I think, from anti-Americanism (a term thrown around so often and so pointlessly these days that it almost lacks meaning), which is more extreme and tends to be a little more broad than the reasons I listed above. When I think of anti-Americanism, I think of hardcore extremists like Bin Laden, who disapprove of virtually every aspect of our way of life, not citizens of western countries who do approve of our way of life, for the most part, but disagree on a lot of the details.

[Darth Wong]

Well, I never really said anyone was anti-American; having a consistent bias against America is quite different, I think, from anti-Americanism (a term thrown around so often and so pointlessly these days that it almost lacks meaning), which is more extreme and tends to be a little more broad than the reasons I listed above.

If you're just talking about mild bias, everyone is biased. Anyone who claims to be completely unbiased on the question of his homeland vs other countries is a fucking liar.

When I think of anti-Americanism, I think of hardcore extremists like Bin Laden, who disapprove of virtually every aspect of our way of life, not citizens of western countries who do approve of our way of life, for the most part, but disagree on a lot of the details.

OBL isn't really anti-American so much as an all-around fucking lunatic.

[TrailerParkJawa]

I dont think Europeans are any more biased in their views of us, than we are of them. Most of us on both sides of the Atlantic have never crossed to the visit the other side.

Ive worked with a lot of Europeans though, one of my company's was British and high tech companies have people from all over the world. However, I think the Europeans that are willing to travel all the way to California to work might be a different breed than those who do not.

Overall, I think Europeans do some things better than us, and we than them.

[RedImperator]

While I think most Europeans are biased, I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that Europeans are getting news from biased sources; news agencies have agendas of their own and we lose sight of that.

Eurpean news sources only seem biased because our media constantly omits what they don't want the public to know about.

Our media is about as biased as you can get. It isn't liberal bias, either.

Do you have proof of this, or shall I assume that smell is your ass talking?

[Edi]

While I think most Europeans are biased, I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that Europeans are getting news from biased sources; news agencies have agendas of their own and we lose sight of that.

Eurpean news sources only seem biased because our media constantly omits what they don't want the public to know about.

Our media is about as biased as you can get. It isn't liberal bias, either.

Do you have proof of this, or shall I assume that smell is your ass talking?

He's not talking out of his ass. Have you watched any European news agency news anytime recently? For foreign news services, I watch BBC World (and sometimes Deutsche Welle) because we can get that here, and I've sometimes had the opportunity to watch CNN, which is considered liberal media in the US. It's so badly biased toward the right that it isn't even funny. I've a lot of respect for the BBC, they tend to be relatively even-handed in their reporting, as is our own media (not that anybody outside Finland and Estonia would understand anything because of the language barrier), but this even-handedness seems to be lacking from many American news agencies. I've got a Danish acquaintance who works for one of their big media companies and follows some 40+ different news media as part of his job, and he said the same thing. You can have a differing opinion about American media being biased or not, but it'd help if you took a broader look around.

Edi

[Coyote]

In Israel I became a big fan of Sky News; the way the BBC portrayed us was pretty sick at times. Sky News just announced what was going on without trying to build a leftist morality play out of it.

Europe has a more leftist tradition than we do, it is a different society. That's just the way it is. Remember, this is where the idea of Communism/Marxism was born. European citizens expect different things from their governments than US citizens. All the Americans complaining about big government and hefty taxes haven't been to Europe. The US is an vast unmonitored playground by comparison.

[The Dark]

I do think a lot of it comes down to the media. Those who get their news just from the general media will tend to be anti-American, as the majority of European news reports I could read are rather anti-American (of course, I only read English and French mostly fluently, so it's not a great sample). Same with America, our news is badly slanted (although there are a few liberals in the media...very few). Those who are willing to look for themselves are more likely to take a broader view. We on this board tend towards the latter, throwing ideas around and providing some very unusual (to the general populace) resources for information. I think overall we tend to be more openminded about other cultures than the average person from our individual nations.

[Perinquus]

Here's a good article on the subject of anti-Americanism in Europe:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/871193.asp?0cv=CA01

Here are some choice excerpts:

“What shocks someone like me, who’s lived here 19 years, is the depth of prejudice and suspicion,” said Gary Smith, executive director of the American Academy, a nonprofit institute of advanced studies in Berlin. “People impute the worst possible motives for American behavior. The arguments I’m hearing sometimes are beyond logic, beyond reason.”

Scenes of anti-American fervor have become a regular feature of the political landscape. At a recent antiwar rally at Ruskin College in Oxford, England, a packed audience cheered as Ken Nichols O’Keefe, a former U.S. Marine, described the United States as “the most despicable and criminal nation in the world.”

Perhaps most telling were suspicions about U.S. intentions. The poll indicated that 75 percent of the French surveyed, 54 percent of Germans and 44 percent of Britons believed a U.S. desire to control Iraqi oil was the United States’ principle reason for considering a war.

Smith, the director of the American Academy, recalled the prosperous and sophisticated German couple who sat next to him on a recent train ride to Berlin. Creators of a successful pharmaceutical research company, they were the kind of people he assumed would be most comfortable with American ideas and values. Instead, he said, they railed against American arrogance and imperial ambitions and refused to concede there might be two sides to the argument.
“I was making the case that if we go into Iraq and discover weapons of mass destruction, then the world would come to realize we’d been right,” Smith recalled. “And they told me, ‘If that happens, it’s only because the CIA planted them.’ I was floored.”

[Colonel Olrik]

Sigh, I'm gonna have a field day with this thread..

Is Europe biased in their views against the United States?

Yes it is. Its bases are our own interests first. It's natural for a country to put its interests ahead of those of any other nation.

When we see the U.S rejecting international treaties concerning justice and environment, it doesn't help either.

Other than that, it is not. The societies are too much alike, people expect the same things and have the same interests. We're better in some things, you're better in others, but hardly critical subjects. Can you say the small group of people you talked with has the meaningful representation of a poll? Come here on vacations, it's one of the few places of the world where an American can go anywhere and be welcome.

I mean, honestly, how often do you hear a country other than Britain say something positive about the U.S.?

Perhaps you missed the declaration just signed by eight european leaders, including the prime ministers of Spain and Portugal (and together we're the biggest group in the E.U).

I'm an American, I don't support the war in Iraq, I don't support most American military adventures, but I'm not blind. Anyone can see that Europe is biased against the U.S., not just on the basis of foreign policy, but on issues like the economy and the environment as well.

Our economy is not as liberal, and, with all due respect, our legislation concerning environmental and human rights is more advanced in some areas. It's natural that we fight for our own views to prevail (just like people do between themselves). That's not prejudice, that's competition. I may disagree with you, that does not mean I'm prejudiced against you.

Name another country in the world that has given out as much aid as we have. Our soldiers died to defend Kuwait,

So did ours. Even Portugal sent troops there.

our soldiers died defending Seoul.

Yes, out of the pureness of your hearts. Or had Russia something to do with it?

We have given out billions in aid and have sent voluteers all over the world to help out. We have doctors in Africa helping to fight against HIV. The list gets longer....

Stop wanking. The U.S is in the bottom of the list of donators, in therms of GIP. Yes, below France.

But, really, do you see any other countries like that?

We have been at the frontline of civil rights and women's rights for decades, as well as have been at the technological forefront.
Why do you think so many people try to get in the US?
Because it's a much better place than the rest of the world.
Those European snobs can go fuck themselves.

1st) For the meanwhile I'm supposing you don't mean all europeans or all europe. Don't make me get the wrong impression, you'll regret it.
2) There are countries with less poor, with more education and of similar richness levels than the U.S. Deal with it.

[Dahak]

Everyone's biased. Europe towards US, and vice versa. There are clichès everyone has, and they look at evidence that support those, and look away when it doesn't.
We think, our way is right, the USA think their way is right. And this will probably never end, because we are too different in our underlying social expectations.

[Edi]

In Israel I became a big fan of Sky News; the way the BBC portrayed us was pretty sick at times. Sky News just announced what was going on without trying to build a leftist morality play out of it.

Out of curiosity, how long ago was that? Or do you mean the issue of Israel vs Palestine? No, I'll not go into that here (with the moratorium and all), but I think I might have an idea of what you mean. I wish we could get Sky News here, but I've got to be content with BBC World. It's generally not that bad, after all.

Europe has a more leftist tradition than we do, it is a different society. That's just the way it is. Remember, this is where the idea of Communism/Marxism was born. European citizens expect different things from their governments than US citizens. All the Americans complaining about big government and hefty taxes haven't been to Europe. The US is an vast unmonitored playground by comparison.

I wholeheartedly agree. I'll also note that Europe could in quite a few respects use a shift toward the right, though not as far right as the US is (the Dems are the equivalent of our far right, after all). It should also be noted that communism and marxism were the creations of upper class diletantes who had a tenuous grasp of reality in the first place. They've fallen quite out of favor, though the leftist tradition is still alive. One curiosity of that is that in Finland the leader of the Leftist Alliance (the party left of the Social Democrats) is the Deputy Minister of Treasury, and she often tends to sound more right wing than the right wing parties themselves. Not that I've disagreed with some of the things she has said, but ah, the irony... *waits for Bean to bust him for trying to break the monopoly on irony*

The problem with media is that they always give an impression more extreme than the reality, because that way they get a bigger audience. Hype sells. It also affects general perceptions, even if we as individuals know better, and it's far too easy to let all the negative perceptions color one's words. The problem, too often, on boths sides, is that not enough people bother to form an informed opinion, they just go on the superficial perceptions.

Edi

[Mr Bean]

I've sometimes had the opportunity to watch CNN, which is considered liberal media in the US. It's so badly biased toward the right that it isn't even funny.

Are you mad man? CNN is pretty damn far left
Or may I ask if it so Right Wing, Why has Senate Minority Leader Tom Dashal been on one of the various CNN programs every single day(Or there-abouts) for the past two years while Senate MAJORITY Leader has been on a total of three times in the past four months?

[Col. Crackpot]

i have a few comments to make regarding what i have read in this thread.


first:
It is absolutely clear to me that the 'Eurocrats', Europe's supporters of a strong federalist EU, see the United States as a 'strategic competetor' The only way for a world power to gain power and prestige anymmore , is at the expense of another. They know that and will use any opportunity presented to them to build upon their power base.

second:
the perception of media bias is dependant on one's point of view. if you are a centrist, a true centrist, CNN appears to be to the left and FoxNews looks to be to the right. If you are a socialist, of course CNN looks like it leans to the right, because you yourself are so far left. The same principle applies to a conservative looking at fox news.

third:
Wong's contrymen shed the same color blood defending places like Kuwait City, Seol and the beaches of Normandy. when you make foolish statements suggesting that 'defending freedom' is a uniquely American thing you feed the resentment