StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Last saturday I visited a friend who I've known since high school. I usually see the guy once every couple of months.

This guy isn't an idiot. He's an assistant professor at a decent uni, and has a PhD in Strategic Management. His grades back in high school were higher than mine. And he's a friendly and welcoming guy. That said, he's always been a conservative christian and rather conservative.

So last weekend he told me that when he's riding the subway he's afraid of "brown" people who are riding in the cart with him. Not because he's afraid to get mugged or beat up, or even hassled. That has never happend, and he's not afraid that such a thing might actually happen. No, he says he's afraid of them because they look, talk and behave differently from other (I assume "white") people. He has no problem with "brown" people that are his students, because they act "white". Right now, he feels like a foreigner in his own country. He also bitched about his "brown" neighbours who won't come over for coffee and fly the flag of their home country outside of their apartment, instead of the flag of the country where they live (or no flag at all).

This completely blew me away. To me, this is incredibly racist. Am I right in feeling that way? I told me that, and he said he wasn't because it isn't about etnicity. If they would just act like us, he'd be fine with them. I asked him how he feels about my wife (who is biracial). He doesn't have a problem with her (I assume because she acts "white").

Besides this he spouted a few right wing talking points about hundreds of sleeper al Qaida agents and how he fears that our freedom of speech is under attack. But this is merely stupid, not offensive.

After the initial shock was over, I kinda left it at that. But the more I think about it, the worse I feel. I used to look up to this guy.

My question is: am I right in thinking that he is racist? And if so, do I just ignore that and continue our friendship? Or should I walk away with it. I don't feel confident enough to tell that I don't wish to see him anymore, but I'm not gonna invite him in the future and hope he gets the message. I don't see him often enough to consider this a real blow to my social life. But still I feel I might be overreacting.

Note: not sure it matters, but the context is West European, not American. So it isn't Obama-induced angst, or Glenn Beck Syndrome. I also put "white" and "brown" between quotes because the terminology he used was slightly different (focusing on culture, instead of race).

Hard to tell what to do in a situation like that. Probably the only thing that could cure him would be a holiday in a "brown people country" where he himself is the minority and is exposed to people acting differently all the time while not being hostile towards him but actually treating him with respect. In fact, i believe that everybody should experience being a visual minority at least once in a life time. Preferably at an early stage.

But you´ll probably not going to get him to travel to a place like that so he´ll just stay a sad, scared little fuck for all his life.

Bellator wrote:My question is: am I right in thinking that he is racist?

Since you're talking Europe and not US I hesitate to specify "racist" as I'm not as in tune with social nuances there, but unequivocally it is prejudiced. It is bigotry. At the very least ethnocentrism which can be every bit as toxic as racism.

And if so, do I just ignore that and continue our friendship? Or should I walk away with it. I don't feel confident enough to tell that I don't wish to see him anymore, but I'm not gonna invite him in the future and hope he gets the message. I don't see him often enough to consider this a real blow to my social life. But still I feel I might be overreacting.

Because bigots are common in this world, and at all levels of society, it is impractical to cut yourself off from them entirely. Continue to be respectful towards him, and interact socially, but refraining from, say, inviting him into your home in the future is appropriate. Do not condone any bigoted words or actions, but you do not need to be confrontational unless you choose to be. When appropriate, disagree politely ("I do not find brown people threatening when riding the train" or "I find people with different customs interesting, not frightening").

I think that the "disagree politely" attitude is a good one to take; you're correct that he's a racist but if his recism is borne of ignorance rather than some deep-seated ideology you may have a chance to work with this guy. After all, if you're his friend, then the same is true in reverse-- he's friends with you, as well, which implies that at some level he respects your opinion on things.

It obviously really bothers you, so if you think it's worth it, then I'd recommend being patient and politlely shooting down racist ideas he presents, and giving him a chance to come out of it. But at some point, know when to draw the line and call it quits. No sense in wasting your time (and life) on a doomed rehabilitation project. After all, rehabilitation is probably not his goal nor is it your job, so there's only so far you can be reasonably expected to go. You'll reach a point where you'll either have to reconcile yourself to the fact that's the way he is and accept it or hit the "eject" button.

What the hell is wrong with you people? The bog standard SDNet advice is something along the lines of "tell the fucktard he's an asshole racist and he needs to get over it," followed by "you should kick him to the curb and fuck his sister in front of him," finished off by "once you've stopped being his friend, ruin his life by calling the police, his employer, his friends, his family, etc., and tell them all that he's a racist piece of shit who should kill himself."

Alternately, you could take salm, Coyote, and Broomstick's advice (non-SDNet standard though it may be); if you want you might want to go one further and start including him in social activities with a diverse group of your friends (assuming you yourself have some "brown" friends) to reduce his fears of "them." Of course, he might end up simply being an asshole and unwilling to budge or associate with "brown" people on an equal playing field (you mentioned that he had no problem with his students, but that's a superior-subordinate relationship, not an equal one), in which case you need to decide whether you want to deal with your racist friend or not.

Bellator wrote:Last saturday I visited a friend who I've known since high school. I usually see the guy once every couple of months.

This guy isn't an idiot. He's an assistant professor at a decent uni, and has a PhD in Strategic Management. His grades back in high school were higher than mine. And he's a friendly and welcoming guy. That said, he's always been a conservative christian and rather conservative.

So last weekend he told me that when he's riding the subway he's afraid of "brown" people who are riding in the cart with him. Not because he's afraid to get mugged or beat up, or even hassled. That has never happend, and he's not afraid that such a thing might actually happen. No, he says he's afraid of them because they look, talk and behave differently from other (I assume "white") people. He has no problem with "brown" people that are his students, because they act "white". Right now, he feels like a foreigner in his own country. He also bitched about his "brown" neighbours who won't come over for coffee and fly the flag of their home country outside of their apartment, instead of the flag of the country where they live (or no flag at all).

This completely blew me away. To me, this is incredibly racist. Am I right in feeling that way? I told me that, and he said he wasn't because it isn't about etnicity. If they would just act like us, he'd be fine with them. I asked him how he feels about my wife (who is biracial). He doesn't have a problem with her (I assume because she acts "white").

Besides this he spouted a few right wing talking points about hundreds of sleeper al Qaida agents and how he fears that our freedom of speech is under attack. But this is merely stupid, not offensive.

After the initial shock was over, I kinda left it at that. But the more I think about it, the worse I feel. I used to look up to this guy.

My question is: am I right in thinking that he is racist? And if so, do I just ignore that and continue our friendship? Or should I walk away with it. I don't feel confident enough to tell that I don't wish to see him anymore, but I'm not gonna invite him in the future and hope he gets the message. I don't see him often enough to consider this a real blow to my social life. But still I feel I might be overreacting.

Note: not sure it matters, but the context is West European, not American. So it isn't Obama-induced angst, or Glenn Beck Syndrome. I also put "white" and "brown" between quotes because the terminology he used was slightly different (focusing on culture, instead of race).

Just out of curiosity, what terminology DID he use? You say that you fear that he is a racist but at the same time, you say that his means of distinguishing between "white" and "brown" people was a cultural one and not a racial one. Culture is not always something that can be safely confined to a certain racial group; for example, there is a certain culture associated with the "ghetto" and even cultures specific to certain areas of a city like Harlem and a "Little Italy" or "Chinatown" that are not race-specific but area-specific. Heck, some Sicilians have the olive-brown skin that we associate with Hispanics (my younger brother has a friend who gets tired of being constantly mistaken for a Mexican) yet they are unquestionably Italian.

As to how to deal with him... Coyote, salm, and Broomstick probably have the right idea. Maybe SancheztheWhaler too although I'm not sure if he's recommending that you kick the guy's ass or give him another chance.

Ah well the bitchslapping strategy is one approach sure, but it might be more cosntructive to encoruage him to think rationally about his position. He doesn't seem like a racist if he's put out that his neighbor won't come over for cofffee. Encourage him to find out what they want to do to socialize. You could point out as well that there's not requirement to fly the American flag, and flying another country's flag is just a way of remembering your roots.

Regarding the uncomfortableness on the bus, he jsut feels different. Of course your going to be self concious when you are in the minority in a situation, thats the dysfunctional aspect of conformtative validation behavior. We learn to assimilate at an early age and we constantly draw validation ffrom it. Wearing designer clothes, participating in popular activities etc, provides reinforcement that we are doing things "right" because everyone else is doing it.

Suddenly everyone around you is speaking another language and looks different? Sure its unsettling, try going to another country where your broken garble frequently gets you the wrong meal We've been touring other countries for years, I find it convenient that they are bringing their culture to us now for free.

Learning another language is hard, no one has to be excited about doing at it and there's nothing wrong with being proud of your heritage, you don't have to be DEFENSIVE of it though. it sounds like he needs more experience with diversity and less time spent watching Fox news.

Seriously? I'm a bit more with Sanchez's nonserious Plan A here--you don't need to stop being his friend entirely, but this guy is fuckin' looney with toxic politics. He's a flag-obsessing, sleeper-agent paranoid who thinks that 'brown people' are different from 'white' people? How is he not a giant stinking racist asshole? Are all non-white people 'brown?' How 'white' do you have to be? Are foreigners 'white'? What if he had some French neighbors flying a French flag, refusing to drink his crappy American coffee and acting all different and such.

It's pretty much racism already to say "oh, your skin color is darker than some shade of pale pink, so you're all the same." Unless he's just racist against, say, Arabs or Mexicans, in which case he's still being racist. Sure, he's drawing a distinction between the ones that act like 'they normally act' and the ones that 'act like us,' but it's still racist. Sure, being a bit unsettled by cultural differences is normal, but unless he honestly believes that all white people naturally act in a way he'd find acceptable, he's just being racist. Having a cultural prejudice is one thing--I hate people who yell and bang around on trains, as I find it rude and obnoxious, and you're less likely to see a suburban father do that than an inner-city kid commuter--but when you start assuming that the prejudice is supported by making a skin-color stereotype then that's racist.

If he doesn't actually believe the racist things he's saying, and is using the wrong bigoted conservative christian term for it, then he can climb back up to the lofty heights of non-racist fundie asshole by trying to not be so racist. If he's not willing to do that, just think about what he says with his other friends who agree with him.

What you need to do here is tell the fucktard he's a racist asshole and that he needs to get over it. Then you should kick him to the curb and fuck his sister in front of him. When that is over, stop being friends with him and call everyone he knows including his dog that he's a racist that should kill himself.

...actually, that's a decent idea. If he starts acting out with the racist shit, tell him that you think he is wrong and that he probably should shut up. Keep going with that line until he stops doing it around you. There is absolutely no reason in the world why stupid, hateful ideas shouldn't be slapped down no matter who says them. That might offend him, but he doesn't seem to have any problem offending you, so it's fair play.

A lot depends on the hotness quotient of the sister in question, too.

Um... folks... ya'll talking about flying the American flag and such like - the OP states very clearly this is taking place in Europe, not the US, m'kay? Read for comprehension, s'il vous plait, merci beaucoup.

If the OP had said "I don't know what to do" I might well have advised him to kick this guy to the curb, but he indicated some desire to continue some sort of social relationship here, even if it's a distant one.

The older I get the more I realize that you have to deal with bigots simply because there are so damn many of them. "Polite disagreement" is one strategy for when kicking to the curb is impractical.

Well if he is as smart as you say he is, can't you just have an intelligent conversation with him and explain why you feel that he is wrong in the way he feels?

Broomstick wrote:Um... folks... ya'll talking about flying the American flag and such like - the OP states very clearly this is taking place in Europe, not the US, m'kay? Read for comprehension, s'il vous plait, merci beaucoup.

True enough. Which would make it all the more interesting to know the cultural references the man in question used since I would assume you'd come across people of different cultures over in Western Europe than you would in the US of A.

Hmm... yes and no. The US has a lot of people born abroad who brought their cultures and languages with them. There have also been some distinctive regional differences developed over the years. We have a predominant language in a way Europe doesn't, but there are definitely some diverse cultures over here.

I always got the feeling too, that Europeans might view other European cultures differently from the way view cultures from other regions: the French and the Germans, for example, while being culturally distinct also have enough similarities that a German in France wouldn't be viewed as "foreign" in the same way that somebody from China would. After all, French and German cultures have been in contact for long enough that your average person from both countries knows how to use a knife and fork, and knows to look someone in the eye when they're talking etc. whereas somebody from China would have to acquire these basic social skills later on in life.

Whaa--? People in China don't look at each other when they're talking? What's the cultural background behind that? Is it just seen as rude or something?

Coyote wrote:Whaa--? People in China don't look at each other when they're talking? What's the cultural background behind that? Is it just seen as rude or something?

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I would assume it's a thing from either Confucius or Buddha, can't remember which philosophy has it, where strict hierarchical relationships are adhered to. Father-son, Father-Mother, etc... From what I understand, they have cultural rules about the best, second best, third best, relationships and in each one you have a superior and subordinate. So pretty much any two people in China will have a boss dude and apprentice dude who have to show respect for the other.

I could be wrong, but I think that's what is going on in this instance.

Thanks all for your insights and advice. I'm still not 100% sure what I'll do. I don't think I should have to be polite in my disagreement. On the other hand I don't feel he's worth it to spend so much energy in trying to argue/shout him out of it or beat it out of him.

A few clarifications in response to some of the issues raised:

Probably the only thing that could cure him would be a holiday in a "brown people country" where he himself is the minority and is exposed to people acting differently all the time while not being hostile towards him but actually treating him with respect.

The most exotic location he's been to is Italy. So yeah, he's not been exposed to such situations much. His favorite holiday locations are Norway, Sweden, Finland and Switzerland. No surprise.

Just out of curiosity, what terminology DID he use?

Immigrants. Muslims. Neither of which directly specifies a given race or country of origin. Of course, all the immigrants he refered to are non-white (from north Africa, the Middle East or the Carribean).

How 'white' do you have to be? Are foreigners 'white'? What if he had some French neighbors flying a French flag, refusing to drink his crappy American coffee and acting all different and such.

I specifically asked him how he'd feel if he was surounded by French or German people. He claimed to not have a problem with them, despite not understanding a word they're saying.

Well if he is as smart as you say he is, can't you just have an intelligent conversation with him and explain why you feel that he is wrong in the way he feels?

He may be smart, but has never been critical when it comes to his own beliefs. As I stated in the OP, he's a conservative christian. He's completely unwilling to use the critical thinking skills he uses every day at work and apply them to his own views. I told him that I think his views are racist, and he just says that that is just the way he feels. In the same vein, he feels that the bible is the literal Word of God, he feels that evolution is wrong, etc. He doesn't think those things are true, he feels that they are true. I never understood that, and also makes discussing this a rather fruitless excercise. When pressed he never gives specifics or details or uses logic or facts, just broad generalizations, vague unquantifiable statements and silly anecdotes. Difference is, up until now this was limited to his views on religion.

Bellator wrote: He may be smart, but has never been critical when it comes to his own beliefs. As I stated in the OP, he's a conservative Christian. He's completely unwilling to use the critical thinking skills he uses every day at work and apply them to his own views. I told him that I think his views are racist, and he just says that that is just the way he feels. In the same vein, he feels that the bible is the literal Word of God, he feels that evolution is wrong, etc. He doesn't think those things are true, he feels that they are true. I never understood that, and also makes discussing this a rather fruitless excercise. When pressed he never gives specifics or details or uses logic or facts, just broad generalizations, vague unquantifiable statements and silly anecdotes. Difference is, up until now this was limited to his views on religion.

Yeah, beliefs proceeding from emotion are always very challenging to address and generally speaking, feeling uncomfortable around people who are different than you is invariably an emotional response. If you're at all familiar with his Christian beliefs, it might be possible to approach him from that direction, pointing out that Jesus apparently felt comfortable enough interacting with those very culturally different than Him (Samaritans, Greeks, Romans, etc) and "What Would Jesus Do?" It may not really be worth it to go to so much effort but sometimes, someone can be reached through their system of belief even if they're not rational about it. Just a thought.

Coyote wrote:Whaa--? People in China don't look at each other when they're talking? What's the cultural background behind that? Is it just seen as rude or something?

Pretty much. Looking in somebody's eyes is seen as a kind of confrontation, whereas looking down is seen as all modest and good. Other things that are rude include: placing your proposal at the beginning of an argument (meaning that Asians are often seen as obfuscating) and tipping. Seriously - don't tip in China, especially somewhere where they're not used to westerners - they get insulted.

Things that aren't rude: staring at strangers, pushing, spitting, slurping (this is actually very polite - shows yo like the food) and ringing somebody up for the express purpose of telling them that it's cold and they should put some warmer clothes on (do this to a mainland Chinese person, and they'll love you forever).

Personally I find the not having to look in people's eyeｓ thing quite refreshing. I was never too good at it back in Australia, so now I get to relax.

Sounds like your friend is more xenophobic than racist. Regardless introducing him to more "brown" people would be helpful. As they say familiarity breeds contempt. In this case when you know someone on a first name basis it does not matter what they look like or where they hail from. Instead of paranoia he will realise he is dealing a person with all the faults and merits that come with being a human being just like himself.

I can't say your friend is alone in this regard. From my personal experiencing living in Republic of Ireland and USA the south asian community in US and Europe is shockingly racist. I would be surprised to meet a fellow south asian who does not say a racist thing or two from time to time. At least you people feel bad about it and try to correct what is wrong behavior. I haven't met anyone from this region who does.

Sarevok has some good advice. It occurred to me as well that your friend is probably focusing far too much on what is different with the immigrants than what is similar.

I got to know some Muslim immigrants (Pakistani and East African) and Chinese exchange students during my time in school and at some jobs I've worked. Sure, there are cultural differences. But beneath those cultural differences, especially if we're talking second generation immigrants or ones who have been in the country since they were small children, there is more often than not just a regular person beneath.

So in this case your friend would indeed benefit from getting to know some of these "others" more closely, so he can see that they in fact are normal people. Right now he's built up a fortress in his mind and he's cowering inside and lashing out because he's too scared of shadows.

If he's used to northern Europeans like Finns and the Scandinavians and hasn't been farther than Italy (which can be quite enough of culture shock to some people in some respects), he needs to broaden his horizons.