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I mentioned to a friend today that I wanted to major in biology because I found the subject very interesting. I originally stifled my interest in science because I thought it was going to be too math oriented for me and on some level I knew it was difficult (worst reason ever). Now, after gaining some perspective I've seen that it's not out of my grasp and, dammit, I just want to know more about the subject. I know it will be difficult but I also think it would be worth it on a personal level.

But when my friend asked me what I wanted to do with a biology major I wasn't sure at all. He let me go on for a few minutes before stopping me and telling me that I kept talking about work I could stand and not work I wanted to do (I could stand to be a researcher, I could stand to be a lab assistant, I could stand to work outdoors). I was originally satisfied that I'd made up my mind to pursue a bachelor's degree in something more difficult than what I had originally started with (which was an English major) and the joy from the decision glossed over a lot of details like what kind of work I would be doing for the rest of my life. And that's not to say that working outdoors or in a lab is a bad thing, I'm just really not sure what to expect because I'm super-ignorant of career options. Anything seems better than the retail job I'm in now but I will admit that's coloring my perceptions heavily.

So, for the biology majors and those with a career in the field, what can I expect?

I may not be the best person to answer your question, as I went straight into a Ph. D. program. It's not an easy job market for anyone right now, but my friend who just graduated is having a hard time finding work that relates to her bio degree.

Pursuing something for the challenge can be its own reward, and pursuing any science degree will make you more well-rounded and a better critical thinker. However, it's well worth thinking about what you want to do in the end. Me, I want to do research in my field and publish papers, but I also am very passionate about teaching, so that's what gets me through the way when I wonder what the heck I signed up for. (I'm not a math person either...so I recommend that if you're serious about this you force yourself man up and take some more math! Because I wish I had!)

I have a question for you: how old are you, and what year of undergrad are you in?

Anguirus wrote:I may not be the best person to answer your question, as I went straight into a Ph. D. program. It's not an easy job market for anyone right now, but my friend who just graduated is having a hard time finding work that relates to her bio degree.

Thanks for the warning. It's easy to forget that degree /= job. Unfortunately that will probably be the situation with the degree I will be getting anyway.

Anguirus wrote:Pursuing something for the challenge can be its own reward, and pursuing any science degree will make you more well-rounded and a better critical thinker.

This might be strange to admit but I feel strongly that I should be more well-rounded and a better critical thinker. Why? I'm not sure. I guess it's because I feel like I should have something to pass on to my immediate family as well as my children (someday!). I also...think it would be kind of cool to work in a lab.

Anguirus wrote:I have a question for you: how old are you, and what year of undergrad are you in?

I'm twenty-four (I was 20/21 when I joined these boards). When I stopped pursuing my english degree I also switched to a community college to pursue an associate in applied sciences so at that point I was able to stop taking out loans to pay for college. In retrospect that may have been an extremely foolish move in terms of time wasted, but I was literally flailing about in my life at that point. If I were to start at another school it's hard for me to say where I would be because I'm not sure what credits they would recognize. I doubt I'd be anywhere below a sophomore (due to credit count I'd probably be a junior, technically, but colleges around here are weird in terms of what they recognize), but as it is, I only have two biology courses under my belt.

I also did consider teaching as people have told me that I'm good at it. I'm just not sure because I've been hearing from teachers and students that the No-Child-Left-Behind act is getting in the way of teaching.

This might be strange to admit but I feel strongly that I should be more well-rounded and a better critical thinker. Why? I'm not sure.

Because you're awesome.

I also...think it would be kind of cool to work in a lab.

Sounds like experience in this department should be next on your agenda. Depending on where you go to school, there may be a lot of opportunity to get lab experience. Or, try to get an entry-level position as a tech, but keep in mind that 1) lack of experience will hamper you, and 2) you may experience dissatisfaction with slaving on other people's projects (which is what you will be doing), and decide that that means you won't like any lab work.

I also did consider teaching as people have told me that I'm good at it. I'm just not sure because I've been hearing from teachers and students that the No-Child-Left-Behind act is getting in the way of teaching.

Teachers get shit on a lot...like a lot a lot. I also think they are one of the noblest professions out there. If you have a good skillset for it it might be worth looking into...I did a bit, I'm TAing now obviously, and I intend to keep a focus on teaching if I make it as a prof, so yeah.

Did you enjoy the work you did on your English degree, aside from the lack of critical thinking? It might be worth looking into science writing and journalism (another thing I considered briefly).

As long as you're relatively smart and motivated, I bet you could graduate with a BA or BS in Biology and a good grade in three years. But you might want a higher degree of commitment if you want to be a REALLY GOOD bio student, the kind that makes it into grad school. A professor of my acquaintance, Dr. Pianka, says that the only people who should go to the effort and meager financial reward of becoming scientists are the people who couldn't be happy doing anything else. I think this is going a little far myself.

I'm currently thinking of switching to a joint biology/psychobiology degree (Brain science), and i'd like to ask some bio related questions too if I may .

1. How much of an emphasis is there on rote memorization in biology? (As opposed to practice and understanding as is the case in CS/math/physics)?
2. What types of learning types (hands on, theory, reading, practice oriented) is it easiest for?
3. Is there really that little math? . (As opposed to Computer science or physics).
4. What should interest me naturally if i'm considering it? How much of a problem would it be to get the basic knowledge if I haven't studied biology since 9th grade?

Before you take a biology degree, what exactly do you plan to do with it? An undegraduate degree in biology is in itself not exactly the most useful thing if you don't know where to look. A more practical degree might be biochemistry, which incorporates biology with chemistry and would make you more career flexible. With just a regular bachelor's degree in biology, you might be able to get a job as a research intern or a technician in some researcher's lab, get a job in biotech doing tech work, go into teaching perhaps, or work for a government group (e.g. forestry).

Depending on what sub field of biology you go into and how advance the class is that you are taking, the amount of math will vary but most programs require at least one semester of calculus and one semester of statistics. Obviously, the more advance the class, the more mathematics will be introduced, in particular statistics. A lot of biology is rote memorization, there's no way around it. You have to remember the names of different cellular machinery parts, different organelles, different biochemical pathways, different chemical structures, etc. A lot of what you learn in biology is simply how different processes work and why they do the things that they do. I find that the best way to digest this enormous amount of information is to simply learn it as if you were learning history: read up on the history of the field and how people originally tried to solve the problems (e.g. how did people study chemotaxis and come to understand how it all works instead of just memorizing all of the different molecules that are involved). Biology isn't as neat and organized as physics and chemistry is unfortunately and to make matters worse, a lot of the nomenclature isn't logical. So while anyone can jump into it, the amount of information presented can overwhelming, often appearing hodgepodge.

Hodgepodge is bad, i'm leaving physics due to it being too unorganized and undefined for me...
I plan to do a second degree at the least, a doctorate too if I can manage it . (Again, another reason why i'm leaving engineering, I'm very interested in research, and I want to do something that will allow me to get the grades for a second degree + (85+)).
I'll be dealing with neurobiology/evolutionary biology in the first degree.

The Grim Squeaker wrote:Hodgepodge is bad, i'm leaving physics due to it being too unorganized and undefined for me...
I plan to do a second degree at the least, a doctorate too if I can manage it . (Again, another reason why i'm leaving engineering, I'm very interested in research, and I want to do something that will allow me to get the grades for a second degree + (85+)).
I'll be dealing with neurobiology/evolutionary biology in the first degree.

Neurobiology has a lot of similarities to engineering so you should pick up on it quite quickly (at the molecular and cellular levels at least, at the systems level it becomes rote memorization): cable theory, resistance, capacitance, etc. Evolutionary biology is a bit more esoteric and is more math oriented, especially when it comes to population genetics.

Fire Fly wrote:

The Grim Squeaker wrote:Hodgepodge is bad, i'm leaving physics due to it being too unorganized and undefined for me...
I plan to do a second degree at the least, a doctorate too if I can manage it . (Again, another reason why i'm leaving engineering, I'm very interested in research, and I want to do something that will allow me to get the grades for a second degree + (85+)).
I'll be dealing with neurobiology/evolutionary biology in the first degree.

Neurobiology has a lot of similarities to engineering so you should pick up on it quite quickly (at the molecular and cellular levels at least, at the systems level it becomes rote memorization): cable theory, resistance, capacitance, etc. Evolutionary biology is a bit more esoteric and is more math oriented, especially when it comes to population genetics.

Ok, cool. I'm first semester engineering now, i'll be taking Cellular organisms and Genetics A next semester before starting the degree proper next year. (Or starting a degree in economics if I see that biology is a pile of rote memorization humdrummity ).

If you have any more advise or tips or recommendations i'd love to hear them . Thanks!

Why do you imagine economics or infact, any major, does not have large parts to memorize? Stuff that has already been researched/discovered/invented still requires you to know it.

The Grim Squeaker wrote:Ok, cool. I'm first semester engineering now, i'll be taking Cellular organisms and Genetics A next semester before starting the degree proper next year. (Or starting a degree in economics if I see that biology is a pile of rote memorization humdrummity ).

If you have any more advise or tips or recommendations i'd love to hear them . Thanks!

Like Ace said, pretty much anything in the college level is going to require some degree of rote memorization (well, anything science-oriented, including the social sciences, and even a lot of liberal arts majors will require a great deal too).

As I have my B.Sc. in biology (and a B.A. in history), I can say the undergrad experience, for me, at least, did require a moderate amount of memorization of details. A lot of terminology needs to be absorbed, same with anatomical details; and if you learn anything at all about genetics, that will REQUIRE you to memorize a lot of information.

However, if it's your thing, it won't be nearly as hard as something that isn't your forte. I love biology immensely, so the memorization aspect was never a problem for me; however, if it isn't what you like, it can be extremely difficult (anecdote: one of my good friends was getting two degrees, one in teaching, one in English, and in spite of being a great student in everything else, he had an immense difficulty with the intro to bio class, while I didn't even have to study until 300 level classes because I could do everything from memory).


To RazorOutlaw:

The government is hiring a lot of biologists at the moment, however, they usually require a higher degree for you to get into something that isn't "manual labor" or "park guide." Hence, why I am applying to grad schools so that I might get one of the better jobs doing outdoor research for the DNR or DoI.

The majority of science students in many universities are biology majors.

As I understand, biology majors, MSc's and PhD's have been overproduced in many many subfields for years. I believe Microbiology is the biggest offender. My dad is a Forest Pathologist and can't get hired for the life of him, because any pathology opening anywhere for anything has at least 100 applicants. He ended up in Urban foresty consulting and working for a City Park Dept, and is way overqualified for a lot of what he's done.

My Father in law is a Marine Biologist, and has really succeeded, only because for his PhD he did ground breaking research in regrowing Coral Reefs. He's told me repeatedly that its still a tough area to do well in (he's had many paper ideas poached from him when he was still quite naive how cut throat the field was)

If you're going to pursue biology seriously, once you're in the field... Finding out where there are new opportunities (i.e. new subfields of biomathematical modeling, i.e dynamical systems or bioinformatics (computerization of biological data)) and where the money is. Make sure you have a clear career path... This will become more apparent once you're in the field. I think there are still a great many opportunities in the field as a whole, but be careful which route you take, because there is a heavy saturation of the field in academia/industry.

As my teacher put it, about 33% of those with a BS Bio will get jobs, 66% with a MD and most all with a Ph.D will get a job. But you gotta be good and willing to do your damnedest to get a job. Currently on the last leg of my BS Bio and I already know I have to go on to grad school, no questions about it. Thing is I don't know what for yet, since I really like all fields of biology. Do expect to learn a good deal more chemistry then you expected (Gen chem, Organic chemistry and Biochem) and that everyone wants to be a marine biologist. Just how it is.

Personally, I think I'm going to head into genetics. A lot of application there for both medicine and potentially, should the technology every advance, repairing the damage we've done to ecosystems so far. Assuming there is anything left.

Everyone I know with a biology degree either went back to school for a biochem or other science and/or computers degree or they ended up doing some job in a completely unrelated field. I don't know anyone with a straight biology degree who went to work in that field after graduating, a lot of them ended up unemployed and went back to school and the rest of them ended up in working in Home Depot or something.

The people who got biochem degrees ended up in the pharmaceuticals industry for the most part, a few went into the PR departments of various medical companies after going back to school for other degrees, some went into medical imaging after taking some physics & computers courses, and a couple people I know ended up doing drug research after completing their postgrad work.

From what I'm seeing biochem seems to be the ticket to a job here, get the degree and go work for big pharma. Or combine bio with physics or compsci and work for the medical instruments and imaging companies, where you get to play around with ways to build 3-D graphics & models out of various scan data.

Actually, any form of chemistry degree is the ticket to a job. The grad student I'm friends with who had a biochem degree came out and said he never used any of the bio when he worked from a pharm company, it was all chemistry, all the time.

RazorOutlaw wrote:I mentioned to a friend today that I wanted to major in biology because I found the subject very interesting. I originally stifled my interest in science because I thought it was going to be too math oriented for me and on some level I knew it was difficult (worst reason ever). Now, after gaining some perspective I've seen that it's not out of my grasp and, dammit, I just want to know more about the subject. I know it will be difficult but I also think it would be worth it on a personal level.

But when my friend asked me what I wanted to do with a biology major I wasn't sure at all. He let me go on for a few minutes before stopping me and telling me that I kept talking about work I could stand and not work I wanted to do (I could stand to be a researcher, I could stand to be a lab assistant, I could stand to work outdoors). I was originally satisfied that I'd made up my mind to pursue a bachelor's degree in something more difficult than what I had originally started with (which was an English major) and the joy from the decision glossed over a lot of details like what kind of work I would be doing for the rest of my life. And that's not to say that working outdoors or in a lab is a bad thing, I'm just really not sure what to expect because I'm super-ignorant of career options. Anything seems better than the retail job I'm in now but I will admit that's coloring my perceptions heavily.

So, for the biology majors and those with a career in the field, what can I expect?

Alright. First thing is first. It is a good thing that you want to be a better critical thinker.

After that, if you are interested in biology, go for it. For most things, just having a degree is qualification enough to get you a decent job, so even if you dont go into biology you will still have skills that will put you ahead of the uneducated plebes, and a document that shows potential employers that you could stick through four years or so of a difficult degree program. University is about growing as a person first, and job prospects second.

As far as getting a job in biology is concerned I also went straight to PhD so I may not be the best person to ask. However, try some things out. Seriously. I have been obsessed with biology since before I could walk up and down stairs reliably(passion for the sciences is something you are born with i think. Even if you dont realize it until later), but that does not mean I knew what I wanted to do in order to earn a living or even what my options were. I thought about breeding snakes professionally for a while.

It took me getting into a lab and doing research to really know that research was what I wanted to do until the day death rips me away from my lab kicking and screaming. After you have a bit of background (Gen chem, intro bio, evolution, and either ecology or cell bio depending on your preferences) start applying for internships in the private sector, or to lab positions in your university. Professors are always looking for undergrads to help them and their grad students with research, and you can get course credit for that. Just look at the department website and see what the resident faculty is doing, and email them asking if they need a hand.

As far as private sector and government work is concerned, there are medical testing labs, biotech firms, environmental consulting firms, the USGS, Game and Fish, the Fish and Wildlife Service as well as zoos and vets offices, all of them have intern programs. Check things out, see what you might like to do. If you find yourself feeling like you are basking in the light of a supreme being you have a winner. Most of these will hire you on when you graduate... Aerius' friends probably didn't know how to network.



My last bit of advice is to take a LOT of math and at least a few programming classes. Start with calc and keep going as far as the university will let you. I wish I had.

As someone who got a BS and then went into the harsh cold stupid outside world...if you want to go into bio stuff, at least stick around and get a master's. I'm going back to school because I can't get shit with this degree (I'm working at a damn call center right now. My actual field-related work has consisted of very part time tutoring and temping; granted, I could've stayed and kept working for my old prof and gotten a master's there, but I was more interested in getting the fuck out of georgia. And I don't regret that part. Fuck georgia.) And yeah, I recommend networking, including walking up to your profs after class and asking them about their research. Don't be shy. They love having an audience, and you might find yourself doing volunteer work for them which turns into paid work when they have money.