Yikes!

[Joe]

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/04/opinion/04KRIS.html

You don't have to read the whole article, this is the most important quote;

"A new Gallup poll shows that 48 percent of Americans believe in creationism, and only 28 percent in evolution (most of the rest aren't sure or lean toward creationism). According to recent Gallup Tuesday briefings, Americans are more than twice as likely to believe in the devil (68 percent) as in evolution."

I hope this isn't an accurate poll!

[Kuja]

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/04/opinion/04KRIS.html

Your link leads to a 'Register at NYTimes.com" page.

[Joe]

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/04/opinion/04KRIS.html

Your link leads to a 'Register at NYTimes.com" page.

I know. You have to register before you can read the article. That's why I only posted the relevant quote.

However, I'll just post the article for those who want to read it.



God, Satan and the Media

By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF




Claims that the news media form a vast liberal conspiracy strike me as utterly unconvincing, but there's one area where accusations of institutional bias have merit: nearly all of us in the news business are completely out of touch with a group that includes 46 percent of Americans.

That's the proportion who described themselves in a Gallup poll in December as evangelical or born-again Christians. Evangelicals have moved from the fringe to the mainstream, and that is particularly evident in this administration. It's impossible to understand President Bush without acknowledging the centrality of his faith. Indeed, there may be an element of messianic vision in the plan to invade Iraq and "remake" the Middle East.

Robert Fogel of the University of Chicago argues that America is now experiencing a fourth Great Awakening, like the religious revivals that have periodically swept America in the last 300 years. Yet offhand, I can't think of a single evangelical working for a major news organization.

Evangelicals are increasingly important in every aspect of American culture. Among the best-selling books in America are Tim LaHaye's Christian "left behind" series about the apocalypse; about 50 million copies have been sold. One of America's most prominent television personalities is Benny Hinn, watched in 190 countries, but few of us have heard of him because he is an evangelist.

President Bush has said that he doesn't believe in evolution (he thinks the jury is still out). President Ronald Reagan felt the same way, and such views are typically American. A new Gallup poll shows that 48 percent of Americans believe in creationism, and only 28 percent in evolution (most of the rest aren't sure or lean toward creationism). According to recent Gallup Tuesday briefings, Americans are more than twice as likely to believe in the devil (68 percent) as in evolution.

In its approach to evangelicals, the national news media are generally reflective of the educated elite, particularly in the Northeast. It's expected at New York dinner parties to link crime to deprived childhoods — conversation would stop abruptly if someone mentioned Satan.

I tend to disagree with evangelicals on almost everything, and I see no problem with aggressively pointing out the dismal consequences of this increasing religious influence. For example, evangelicals' discomfort with condoms and sex education has led the administration to policies that are likely to lead to more people dying of AIDS at home and abroad, not to mention more pregnancies and abortions.

But liberal critiques sometimes seem not just filled with outrage at evangelical- backed policies, which is fair, but also to have a sneering tone about conservative Christianity itself. Such mockery of religious faith is inexcusable. And liberals sometimes show more intellectual curiosity about the religion of Afghanistan than that of Alabama, and more interest in reading the Upanishads than in reading the Book of Revelation.

I care about this issue partly because I grew up near Yamhill, Ore., which has 790 people and five churches. My science teacher at Yamhill Grade School taught that evolution was false, and a high school girlfriend attended a church where people spoke in tongues (contrary to stereotypes, she was an ace student, smarter than many people fluent in more conventional tongues, like French and Spanish). In the evangelical tinge to its faith, Yamhill is emblematic of a huge chunk of Middle America that we in the Northeast are out of tune with.

Moreover, it is increasingly not just Middle America, but Middle World. As Professor Philip Jenkins notes in a new book, fundamentalist Christianity is racing through the developing world. The number of African Christians has soared over the last century, to 360 million from 10 million, and the boom is not among tweedy Presbyterians but among charismatic Pentecostalists.

One of the deepest divides in America today is the gulf of mutual suspicion that separates evangelicals from secular society, and policy battles over abortion and judicial appointments will aggravate these tensions further in coming months. Both sides need to reach out, drop the contempt and display some of the inclusive wisdom of Einstein, who wrote in his memoir: "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

[Admiral Valdemar]

Stupid fucking online American newspapers and their obsession with getting you to bloody sign-up! Grrr!

That said, I doubt these statistics.

As a certain Benjamin Disraeli aid "There are lies, damned lies and then there are statistics."

If this is true though, the Idiot Brigade have been doing well in the US of A.

[Darth Wong]

Stupid fucking online American newspapers and their obsession with getting you to bloody sign-up! Grrr!

That said, I doubt these statistics.

Why?

As a certain Benjamin Disraeli aid "There are lies, damned lies and then there are statistics."

That quote describes misleading conclusions drawn from statistics, not fraudulent statistics.

If this is true though, the Idiot Brigade have been doing well in the US of A.

They have. This is very similar to a Time Magazine poll indicating that 44% of Americans believe in young-Earth creationism. I've said it before: the American school system is to blame, along with a liberal media that has ironically made a habit of attacking science incessantly despite the fact that science and liberals have a mutual enemy in the fundie far-right.

[Xenophobe3691]

DAMMIT! If this is true, I'll just move to Canada. This country is going in the shithole, and I sure as hell am not staying. Thank you, please direct me to the nearest Canadian Embassy.

[Stormbringer]

I'd like to see how they phrased the question and what definitions they used. Because frankly the wiggle room on those could make a big difference.

And I'd don't entirely trust Time on religion.

[TrailerParkJawa]

Have you noticed that if you google news you can get to NY Times articles withouth registration?

Anyway, Im fundies are relatively rare where I live.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Stupid fucking online American newspapers and their obsession with getting you to bloody sign-up! Grrr!

That said, I doubt these statistics.

Why?

As a certain Benjamin Disraeli aid "There are lies, damned lies and then there are statistics."

That quote describes misleading conclusions drawn from statistics, not fraudulent statistics.

If this is true though, the Idiot Brigade have been doing well in the US of A.

They have. This is very similar to a Time Magazine poll indicating that 44% of Americans believe in young-Earth creationism. I've said it before: the American school system is to blame, along with a liberal media that has ironically made a habit of attacking science incessantly despite the fact that science and liberals have a mutual enemy in the fundie far-right.

Well I have normally been told to doubt most surveys today due to the amount of manipulation that can arise if the group conducting it has bias, but I also like to think what my reaction would be if they were 100% true to their word, in which case this is quite frightening.

I also agree wholeheartedly with your statement about the schooling system, it isn't exactly the best in the world for science, a lot of the students I know here in Lancaster are Americans doing science based course as opposed to English or lesser sciences.

[Knife]

DAMMIT! If this is true, I'll just move to Canada. This country is going in the shithole, and I sure as hell am not staying. Thank you, please direct me to the nearest Canadian Embassy.

Sure, run away. Maybe you should stay and help correct the problem instead of fleeing.

[Xenophobe3691]

Here's the problem. People don't want to learn. It's a whole load easier to just run away to some higher power, than to take responsibility for yourself. Just look at this country's rate of lawsuits! Although seemingly unrelated, it also tells of this country's retreat from responsibility, and descent into wholly childish modes of thought, where the lure of religion is that much stronger. I do love my country, and I won't let it go down without a fight, but looking at other teens my age, I know it's gonna be a hard fight, and a very likely pyrrhic victory or lost battle. Like Wong said, education needs to be reformed, and it won't be reformed while people remain addited to the narcotic of ignorance.

[Alferd Packer]

Also depends on who you poll. But yes, the blame lies squarely on piss-poor public education.

[MKSheppard]

I've said it before: the American school system is to blame, along with a liberal media that has ironically made a habit of attacking science incessantly despite the fact that science and liberals have a mutual enemy in the fundie far-right.

MWHAHAHHA

"Give the Capitalists enough rope, and they shall hang themselves with it!"

[Knife]

Here's the problem. People don't want to learn. It's a whole load easier to just run away to some higher power, than to take responsibility for yourself. Just look at this country's rate of lawsuits! Although seemingly unrelated, it also tells of this country's retreat from responsibility, and descent into wholly childish modes of thought, where the lure of religion is that much stronger. I do love my country, and I won't let it go down without a fight, but looking at other teens my age, I know it's gonna be a hard fight, and a very likely pyrrhic victory or lost battle. Like Wong said, education needs to be reformed, and it won't be reformed while people remain addited to the narcotic of ignorance.

I really didn't think you were going to make a break for it. But to say that "It's a whole load easier to just run away to some higher power, than to take responsibility yourself." and as a result, make a break to another county where you believe that the situation is better just echo's the oringinal problem you were complaining about.

Not to pound on you too much, but I gets old to hear (read) a bunch of people, usualy of younger age, bitch about the goverment cracking down on this, religeon is out of control on that, our rights are disappearing here, the country is going to shit there and then to top it off with "I'm moving to Canada."

Now Canada is a great place (so I hear) and I plan on going up there sometime this year but to treat it like a safezone from all that is wrong in the world or the US is exaggeration at its worst. I am sure that if you ask some of our Canadian peers here, they could tell you some problems with their country that would echo our problems down here. Not all, but some.

[Cpt_Frank]

I'm so glad I live in Europe were most people don't even know that there is such a thing as creationism....

[neoolong]

Just a nitpick, but even the article considers evolution a belief.

[Peregrin Toker]

48% believe in creationism?? It's even worse than I feared.

Ah, good I live in Denmark, where creationists exist but rarely are taken seriously. (mainly because the only education institutions which promote creationists are privately-owned Christian fundamentalist universities, which already are under investigation of the Danish Ministry of Education)

[Frank Hipper]

As much as I hope that poll is misleading, I've seen to many "person in the street" interviews to think too highly of the average American's common sense.

(edit) Why is it called common sense when it's so uncommon???

[Alex Moon]

I care about this issue partly because I grew up near Yamhill, Ore., ...

That's all I need to know. IIRC Yamhill sucks.

[jegs2]

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/04/opinion/04KRIS.html

You don't have to read the whole article, this is the most important quote;

"A new Gallup poll shows that 48 percent of Americans believe in creationism, and only 28 percent in evolution (most of the rest aren't sure or lean toward creationism). According to recent Gallup Tuesday briefings, Americans are more than twice as likely to believe in the devil (68 percent) as in evolution."

I hope this isn't an accurate poll!

Probably should move this to that other forum...

[Nathan F]

if they had added 'intelligent design' in this, i wonder what it would have gotten

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Since when is there a problem with American education on the issue of evolution (there's plenty of other reasons to piss on our education, anyways)? At least in my school system, they've always taught evolution, and my social studies teacher even told the class that religion is a bunch fo crock. Maybe I'm the exceptrion though....

[fgalkin]

Religion is opium for the people.

Религия- опиум для народа.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[neoolong]

Since when is there a problem with American education on the issue of evolution (there's plenty of other reasons to piss on our education, anyways)? At least in my school system, they've always taught evolution, and my social studies teacher even told the class that religion is a bunch fo crock. Maybe I'm the exceptrion though....

I think it's more that people aren't paying attention to science class.

I learned evolution in school and it was covered fairly well.

[HemlockGrey]

What's the definition of creationism for this poll? Does it include divinely-started evolution?