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Anti-war people don't want to hear from actual Iraqi people

Posted: 2003-03-06 02:00am
by Shinova
Taken from another board:

February 26, 2003, 10:00 a.m.

Voice of Iraqis
Why don’t antiwar types want to hear them?
By Amir Taheri

I spent part of a recent Saturday with the so-called "antiwar" marchers in London in the company of some Iraqi friends. Our aim had been to persuade the organizers to let at least one Iraqi voice to be heard. Soon, however, it became clear that the organizers were as anxious to stifle the voice of the Iraqis in exile as was Saddam Hussein in Iraq.
The Iraqis had come with placards reading "Freedom for Iraq" and "American rule, a hundred thousand times better than Takriti tyranny!"

But the tough guys who supervised the march would have none of that. Only official placards, manufactured in thousands and distributed among the "spontaneous" marchers, were allowed. These read "Bush and Blair, baby-killers," " Not in my name," "Freedom for Palestine," and "Indict Bush and Sharon."

Not one placard demanded that Saddam should disarm to avoid war.
The goons also confiscated photographs showing the tragedy of Halabja, the Kurdish town where Saddam's forces gassed 5,000 people to death in 1988.

We managed to reach some of the stars of the show, including Reverend Jesse Jackson, the self-styled champion of American civil rights. One of our group, Salima Kazim, an Iraqi grandmother, managed to attract the reverend's attention and told him how Saddam Hussein had murdered her three sons because they had been dissidents in the Baath Party; and how one of her grandsons had died in the war Saddam had launched against Kuwait in 1990.

"Could I have the microphone for one minute to tell the people about my life?" 78-year-old Salima demanded.

The reverend was not pleased.

"Today is not about Saddam Hussein," he snapped. "Today is about Bush and Blair and the massacre they plan in Iraq." Salima had to beat a retreat, with all of us following, as the reverend's gorillas closed in to protect his holiness.

We next spotted former film star Glenda Jackson, apparently manning a stand where "antiwar" characters could sign up to become "human shields" to protect Saddam's military installations against American air attacks.

"These people are mad," said Awad Nasser, one of Iraq's most famous modernist poets. "They are actually signing up to sacrifice their lives to protect a tyrant's death machine."

The former film star, now a Labor party member of parliament, had no time for "side issues" such as the 1.2 million Iraqis, Iranians, and Kuwaitis who have died as a result of Saddam's various wars.

We thought we might have a better chance with Charles Kennedy, a boyish-looking, red-headed Scot who leads the misnamed Liberal Democrat party. But he, too, had no time for "complex issues" that could not be raised at a mass rally.

"The point of what we are doing here is to tell the American and British governments that we are against war," he pontificated. "There will be ample time for other issues."

But was it not amazing that there could be a rally about Iraq without any mention of what Saddam and his regime have done over almost three decades? Just a little hint, perhaps, that Saddam was still murdering people in his Qasr al-Nayhayah (Palace of the End) prison, and that as the Westerners marched, Iraqis continued to die?

Not a chance.

We then ran into Tony Benn, a leftist septuagenarian who has recycled himself as a television reporter to interview Saddam in Baghdad.
But we knew there was no point in talking to him. The previous night he had appeared on TV to tell the Brits that his friend Saddam was standing for "the little people" against "hegemonistic America."

"Are these people ignorant, or are they blinded by hatred of the United States?" Nasser the poet demanded.

The Iraqis would had much to tell the "antiwar" marchers, had they had a chance to speak. Fadel Sultani, president of the National Association of Iraqi authors, would have told the marchers that their action would encourage Saddam to intensify his repression.

"I had a few questions for the marchers," Sultani said. "Did they not realize that oppression, torture and massacre of innocent civilians are also forms of war? Are the antiwar marchers only against a war that would liberate Iraq, or do they also oppose the war Saddam has been waging against our people for a generation?"

Sultani could have told the peaceniks how Saddam's henchmen killed dissident poets and writers by pushing page after page of forbidden books down their throats until they choked.

Hashem al-Iqabi, one of Iraq's leading writers and intellectuals, had hoped the marchers would mention the fact that Saddam had driven almost four million Iraqis out of their homes and razed more than 6,000 villages to the ground.

"The death and destruction caused by Saddam in our land is the worst since Nebuchadnezzar," he said. "These prosperous, peaceful, and fat Europeans are marching in support of evil incarnate." He said that, watching the march, he felt Nazism was "alive and well and flexing its muscles in Hyde Park."

Abdel-Majid Khoi, son of the late Grand Ayatollah Khoi, Iraq's foremost religious leader for almost 40 years, spoke of the "deep moral pain" he feels when hearing the so-called " antiwar" discourse.

"The Iraqi nation is like a man who is kept captive and tortured by a gang of thugs," Khoi said. "The proper moral position is to fly to help that man liberate himself and bring the torturers to book. But what we witness in the West is the opposite: support for the torturers and total contempt for the victim."

Khoi said he would say ahlan wasahlan (welcome) to anyone who would liberate Iraq.

"When you are being tortured to death you are not fussy about who will save you," he said.

Ismail Qaderi, a former Baathist official but now a dissident, wanted to tell the marchers how Saddam systematically destroyed even his own party, starting by murdering all but one of its 16 original leaders.

"Those who see Saddam as a symbol of socialism, progress, and secularism in the Arab world must be mad," he said.

Khalid Kishtaini, Iraq's most famous satirical writer, added his complaint.
"Don't these marchers know that the only march possible in Iraq under Saddam Hussein is from the prison to the firing-squad?" he asked. "The Western marchers behave as if the US wanted to invade Switzerland, not Iraq under Saddam Hussein."

With all doors shutting in our faces we decided to drop out of the show and watch the political zoology of the march from the sidelines.
Who were these people who felt such hatred of their democratic governments and such intense self-loathing?

There were the usual suspects: the remnants of the Left, from Stalinists and Trotskyites to caviar socialists. There were the pro-abortionists, the anti-GM food crowd, the anti-capital-punishment militants, the black-rights gurus, the anti-Semites, the "burn Israel" lobby, the "Bush-didn't-win-Florida" zealots, the unilateral disarmers, the anti-Hollywood "cultural exception" merchants, and the guilt-ridden postmodernist "everything is equal to everything else" philosophers.

But the bulk of the crowd consisted of fellow travelers, those innocent citizens who, prompted by idealism or boredom, are always prepared to play the role of "useful idiots," as Lenin used to call them.

They ignored the fact that the peoples of Iraq are unanimous in their prayers for the war of liberation to come as quickly as possible.
The number of marchers did not impress Salima, the grandmother.

"What is wrong does not become right because many people say it," she asserted, bidding us farewell while the marchers shouted "Not in my name!"

Let us hope that when Iraq is liberated, as it soon will be, the world will remember that it was not done in the name of Rev. Jackson, Charles Kennedy, Glenda Jackson, Tony Benn, and their companions in a march of shame.

— Amir Taheri is author of The Cauldron: The Middle East behind the headlines. Taheri is reachable through http://www.benadorassociates.com.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/c ... 022603.asp

Posted: 2003-03-06 02:09am
by Companion Cube
I guess that the protesters are blinded by their hatred of America...

Posted: 2003-03-06 02:12am
by neoolong
Irony in action. :x

Posted: 2003-03-06 02:15am
by Companion Cube
What is wrong does not become righ because many people say it.
Truest words i've heard all day. :cry:

Posted: 2003-03-06 02:18am
by Sea Skimmer
Of course they don't want to here from them. Then the insanity there own demented world views would be too clear.

Posted: 2003-03-06 02:33am
by Enforcer Talen
course, I put up pictures of Halabja, and quotes of the people living under the regime - but the main response I got was war is not the answer.

they couldnt think of a solution tho :roll:
and my view is, isn't liberty or death a world wide sentiment?

Posted: 2003-03-06 02:57am
by DPDarkPrimus
Fucking 'a's. This just proves that they really don't care about what they're doing, just so long as their leaders say it's a good idea. Baa, baa, go the sheep.

Posted: 2003-03-06 02:58am
by Perinquus
Enforcer Talen wrote:course, I put up pictures of Halabja, and quotes of the people living under the regime - but the main response I got was war is not the answer.

they couldnt think of a solution tho :roll:
and my view is, isn't liberty or death a world wide sentiment?
Actually, I don't think it is even an ideal held by many in the U.S. these days. Try this. And it usually works, because American education is so piss poor these days that most people will not realize where these statements come from. Try quoting some of the sayings of our founding fathers. Patrick Henry is especially good (but not the "give me liberty or give me death" one, that one is well known), and so is Samuel Adams. You will actually see people start to regard you as almost a dangerous radical. You can see them revising their opinion of you right before your eyes.

Americans have been fat, safe and happy in this land of plenty for so long that a great many really have lost the stomach for any kind of struggle, either moral or physical. And many also simply do not understand the kind of devotion to the ideals of liberty that so characterized the men who founded this republic. It was a kind of devotion that meant these men were willing to sacrifice, and even fight for these ideals, and this is a philosophy that is simply alien to most of these protesters.

Posted: 2003-03-06 03:20am
by Shinova
Somebody from another board said the article was ultra-conservative propaganda. He apparently came to this conclusion after supposedly seeing two advertisements on that site that, as he said, bashed liberals.

Posted: 2003-03-06 03:35am
by Perinquus
Shinova wrote:Somebody from another board said the article was ultra-conservative propaganda. He apparently came to this conclusion after supposedly seeing two advertisements on that site that, as he said, bashed liberals.
Classic ad hominem attack. Don't even try to refute a single word of the argument, just dismiss the source and hope to lead people away from evaluating for themselves.

Re: Anti-war people don't want to hear from actual Iraqi peo

Posted: 2003-03-06 04:58am
by Vympel
Shinova wrote:Soon, however, it became clear that the organizers were as anxious to stifle the voice of the Iraqis in exile as was Saddam Hussein in Iraq.
I have a problem with this. Iraqis in exile living in cushy London and being nowhere near a war and several hundred cruise missiles landing near their homes (noone in Baghdad is going into a bomb shelter, they're too scared after what happened in 91) don't mean shit to me. They're not the ones who are going to get killed.
They ignored the fact that the peoples of Iraq are unanimous in their prayers for the war of liberation to come as quickly as possible.
The 'fact'. Really! Where, pray tell, do they get this 'fact'? There ARE Iraqis who are pro-Saddam, and there ARE Iraqis who are anti-Saddam and anti-war- you seem them demonsrating in rallies as well. Who the fuck is the nationalreview to proclaim this 'unanimous' prayer bullshit? Par for the course really.

Posted: 2003-03-06 11:03am
by Strafe
http://transfans2.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/014623.html

Scroll down 2 or 3 posts and read the reply by "Best First"

Frankly I think that article by Taheri is a piece of crap...

Posted: 2003-03-06 12:33pm
by apocolypse
Strafe, no doubt it probably is biased, but I have heard very similar stories so I think there is some definate truth behind it.

Posted: 2003-03-06 01:30pm
by Stormbringer
3rd Impact wrote:I guess that the protesters are blinded by their hatred of America...
Yup. There peacenik idiots for the most part that never bother to consider the facts. It seems utterly typical of the peace advocates.

Posted: 2003-03-06 02:12pm
by Kuja
We managed to reach some of the stars of the show, including Reverend Jesse Jackson, the self-styled champion of American civil rights. One of our group, Salima Kazim, an Iraqi grandmother, managed to attract the reverend's attention and told him how Saddam Hussein had murdered her three sons because they had been dissidents in the Baath Party; and how one of her grandsons had died in the war Saddam had launched against Kuwait in 1990.

"Could I have the microphone for one minute to tell the people about my life?" 78-year-old Salima demanded.

The reverend was not pleased.

"Today is not about Saddam Hussein," he snapped. "Today is about Bush and Blair and the massacre they plan in Iraq." Salima had to beat a retreat, with all of us following, as the reverend's gorillas closed in to protect his holiness.
This sounds typical of the 'Reverend' Jesse Jackson. :roll:

Posted: 2003-03-06 04:51pm
by HemlockGrey
"The time for action has passed! Now is the time for pointless bickering!"

Posted: 2003-03-06 07:27pm
by Ted
You forget, that those Iraqis are those who have left.

They would WANT a war, would WANT to get rid of Hussein.

People living in Iraq DO NOT WANT A WAR.

Do you think Poland wanted war in 1939?

Nobody wants a war that will bring massive destruction on their homes.

Posted: 2003-03-06 08:01pm
by Anarchist Bunny
How do we know the people in Iraq do not want to be liberated? The only ones we can question are those outside of Iraq. Ever heard of a minder? Their Iraqi govt offical that follows around any foriegn member of the press. Anyone speaking out is a dead man.

Posted: 2003-03-06 08:07pm
by Montcalm
anarchistbunny wrote:How do we know the people in Iraq do not want to be liberated? The only ones we can question are those outside of Iraq. Ever heard of a minder? Their Iraqi govt offical that follows around any foriegn member of the press. Anyone speaking out is a dead man.
Thats a good point people inside Iraq can`t say a word against Maddas without consequence.

Posted: 2003-03-06 08:10pm
by Wicked Pilot
Ted wrote:People living in Iraq DO NOT WANT A WAR.
Ah yes, and what remote and uncharted region of your ass did you pull this from?

Posted: 2003-03-06 08:19pm
by Ted
Wicked Pilot wrote:
Ted wrote:People living in Iraq DO NOT WANT A WAR.
Ah yes, and what remote and uncharted region of your ass did you pull this from?
Look you asshole, would you want a country that is infinately more powerful than you to come in, bomb the entire infastructure, cause 100,000's of civilian casualties, and to completely replace the government and replace it with what they have PUBLICALLY STATED will be a military dictatorship, and say that that would be welcomed?

No wonder the personell in the USAF are so ridiculed and made fun of, you actually DO live up to the jokes about you.

Posted: 2003-03-06 08:25pm
by Anarchist Bunny
Ted wrote: Look you asshole, would you want a country that is infinately more powerful than you to come in, bomb the entire infastructure, cause 100,000's of civilian casualties,
First of all, what fantasy world do you live in, ALL WARS HAVE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES! ALL! War isn't some pretty little thing like you see in the movies, people die.
Second, alot of those will be because Saddams using them like friggin' human shields.
and to completely replace the government and replace it with what they have PUBLICALLY STATED will be a military dictatorship, and say that that would be welcomed?
WTF? Where has this been stated, were trying to destroy a dictatorship here, not just set up another one.
No wonder the personell in the USAF are so ridiculed and made fun of, you actually DO live up to the jokes about you.
Charming, did you not notice the other two people that posted against you? No, you just chose the one that didn't support themselves, create some bullshit, and flame him.

Posted: 2003-03-06 08:28pm
by Enlightenment
Wicked Pilot wrote:Ah yes, and what remote and uncharted region of your ass did you pull this from?
:roll: I realize the USAF has a hard time understanding this at times, but most people don't like having ordnance fired in their general direction. This is just basic human nature. Iraqis, being more-or-less human, are going to be far more worried about a rain of PGMs landing in their cities than they are going to be worried by the status quo.

Posted: 2003-03-06 08:31pm
by Ted
anarchistbunny wrote:
Ted wrote: Look you asshole, would you want a country that is infinately more powerful than you to come in, bomb the entire infastructure, cause 100,000's of civilian casualties,
First of all, what fantasy world do you live in, ALL WARS HAVE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES! ALL! War isn't some pretty little thing like you see in the movies, people die.
Second, alot of those will be because Saddams using them like friggin' human shields.
No one wants a war to happen in their own back yard.

A reason why they dont want war is because of those self-same civilian casualties.

That is well known to logical thinkers, and intelligent people, which category, it seems, you do not fall into.
No wonder the personell in the USAF are so ridiculed and made fun of, you actually DO live up to the jokes about you.
Charming, did you not notice the other two people that posted against you? No, you just chose the one that didn't support themselves, create some bullshit, and flame him.[/quote]

1) You didn't reply to my post, you went off in a tangent, by dealing with liberation, I just said war.

2) Only you and Wicked Pilot replied to my post.

Posted: 2003-03-06 08:32pm
by Wicked Pilot
Ted wrote:Look you asshole, would you want a country that is infinately more powerful than you to come in, bomb the entire infastructure, cause 100,000's of civilian casualties, and to completely replace the government and replace it with what they have PUBLICALLY STATED will be a military dictatorship, and say that that would be welcomed?
If I was living under Saddam, yes.
No wonder the personell in the USAF are so ridiculed and made fun of, you actually DO live up to the jokes about you.
Last time I checked, more people on this board make fun of you than they do of the USAF. And unlike you, we actually contribute to the world. We liberate countries, we keep dictators at bay, we airlift food and medicine to devestated countries, we rescue civilians in harsh terrain, we contribute to the advancement of science, we provide GPS to all the world's travelers, and etc. What the fuck do you do?