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I have been involved in Tae Kwon Do for many years now. As many of you know, TKD is now practiced by many schools as more of a sport and less of a method of self defense (although it does indeed have many applications in self defense situations). It is even practiced in the Olympics.

I often read many articles on the topic of martial arts, and I am familiar with the history of many of them. In some of the Chinese and Japanese arts, for example, you find the concept of Chi. Bruce Lee is often recorded as using this force to do some amazing feats, such as the one-inch punch.

I recently had the opportunity to meet a master of Okinawan karate here in Chico. He trains under one of the few Grand Masters in Okinawa that are left in existence and has a reputation of being a real bad ass, but he's a hell of a nice guy. When we met, I explained that I practice Tae Kwon Do, and have since I was twelve, but that I have virtually no knowledge of the Japanese system of Okinawan karate. I asked him to demonstrate this concept of Chi, and he agreed to do it.

He had me hold up a pad and he punched it. He hit me with force, but I did not move from my position. He then moved in on me, while my feet were not in any fighting stance, causing me to stand on a very weak balance, punched me and knocked me over. He then smiled proudly in front of some of his friends and said, "You see, that is Chi” (pronounced "Ki" in Japanese). I told him that he had simply moved in on me, causing my balance to be off, and that is why I fell over. He answered by telling me that it had to do with the energy of our bodies, and that my stance had little or nothing to do with it. He could control his energy. Everyone around him was very impressed.

I had an idea. I asked him to demonstrate this again while I was in a front stance or a fighting stance. After all, if it had nothing to with my stance and only to do with mystical energy, then heck, this should prove his case. He refused, however, saying that he had already proven it. I then asked him if I could "demonstrate chi.” He refused this as well. I left, feeling very proud of my "non mythical" Tae Kwon Do.

I love the martial arts, and I am sure that there are some fellow practitioners here. I am just sick of all the cultural superstition that dominates it. Many teachers promote utter nonsense and their willing students eat it up. I can tell you right now that if some moron tried "Chi" me, I would kick the crap out of him (unless he kicks my butt first, but oh well, it won’t be from “Chi”).

yeah, i agree with you. all that energy stuff is just crap and annoying. that´s why i prefer good old, honest boxing to most of the asian crap. no weird energy bending humbug just plain punch and duck.

Don't get me wrong, the Asian styles are great! But yes, a good fighter is a good fighter is a good figher, regardless of the style he/she practices.

Superman wrote:Don't get me wrong, the Asian styles are great! But yes, a good fighter is a good fighter is a good figher, regardless of the style he/she practices.

hmm... i don´t know. some martial arts seem pretty crapy for self defence.
judo for example. what can a judoka do against a tai boxer. he´ll just get his ass kicked so bad within seconds.
judo might be a fun and sports but for self defence against trained fighters who do the real stuff it´s basicly effectless.

Actually, in every real fight that I have seen (UFC's, Caged Fighting Challenge, etc) the grapplers have the advantage about 90% of the time over the puncher/kicker. They move in, take them down and then win. A kick boxer, or TKD practitioner like myself, cannot kick while wrestling. If we can get some strikes in before the grappler can take us down, then we might have a chance, but usually the grapplers can take a few hits before they feel it. Those few are all they need to get in on the opponent.

First off, that guy's a quack. "Mystical" powers mean shit if he can't repeat them. With that said "chi" does exist and I've seen and experienced it in person. I had a very good Tae Kwon Do instructor who could do things that you wouldn't think possible. For one thing you could not move this guy, he was of average size and probably around 170 lbs or so. He could stand normally, not in any kind of stance and you could hit him with a flying sidekick and not even move him. He challenged us to move him and one guy hit him with a full on football tackle and just bounced off him. How he stayed balanced and rooted to the ground was beyond our comprehension, but he explained that it was "chi" and tried to tell us how it was done. Unfortunately none of us learned to do what he did but we learned some cool concepts trying.

Will the Chi stop a slug from an M-16?

salm wrote:hmm... i don´t know. some martial arts seem pretty crapy for self defence.
judo for example. what can a judoka do against a tai boxer. he´ll just get his ass kicked so bad within seconds.
judo might be a fun and sports but for self defence against trained fighters who do the real stuff it´s basicly effectless.

Sport judo which is what's taught 99% of the time yes, he'd likely get his ass kicked. Sport Judo which is what you see in the Olympics has many of the effective and damaging techniques removed. For example joint locks are severely limited in sport Judo and carotid chokes are not allowed, either one of these techniques will end a fight in a hurry. What most people also don't know is that Judo contains strikes and punches, not as many as TKD or Karate but they're there. Use those as well as the grappling techniques and you have a martial art that is quite effective at all ranges.

First off, that guy's a quack. "Mystical" powers mean shit if he can't repeat them.

Umm, yes, that was my point of this thread.

For one thing you could not move this guy, he was of average size and probably around 170 lbs or so.

No offense, but I find this to be silly. Anyone can stand in a well balanced stance and be very difficult to move. Let me tell you, as a third degree black belt, that I have fought these types in tournaments before. A well placed uppercut does very well to move them. A flying side kick knocks them flat on their asses.

Superman wrote:No offense, but I find this to be silly. Anyone can stand in a well balanced stance and be very difficult to move. Let me tell you, as a third degree black belt, that I have fought these types in tournaments before. A well placed uppercut does very well to move them. A flying side kick knocks them flat on their asses.

The fact is he was NOT standing in any kind of stance. He was just standing casually the way someone would while waiting to check out groceries for example. And we still couldn't budge him depite our best efforts.

Chi exists, but the way I see it is different to the way the "old masters" do.

Chi is the focus that you put into your actions. Chi is a mindset and condition.

If you focus "chi" into a punch, then the punch will be harder. If you are in the chi mindset and set to receive a blow, it will hurt less.

Sure its shit all use against a speeding 5.56, but hey, it works in HtH.

Well, aerius, all I can say is that the teacher that I was talking about had his class pretty well convinced he was using Chi.

I can pretty much gaurantee you that a guy weighing in at 240, like myself, would have no problem knocking down a man weighing in a 170, while he is standing in no stance at all. I would be willing to prove it also. I am not saying I could take him in a fight; I am just saying that physics would overcome "chi." I still say that Chi is nonsense, by the way.

When I say that chi is nonsense, I mean "chi" as some type of supernatural force.

You know, why doesn't the Dallas Cowboys hire these chi proficient masters to use as linemen?

Superman wrote:When I say that chi is nonsense, I mean "chi" as some type of supernatural force.

My my, quite the cynic aren't ya?

Seriously though, I've never had Chi explained to me as a supernatural force before. I was always under the impression that it was the art of channeling your energies, nothing supernatural in the sense of a spirit or whatnot.

Superman wrote:You know, why doesn't the Dallas Cowboys hire these chi proficient masters to use as linemen?

I remember a show, I think it was on the Discovery Channel where they had professional soccer players or whatnot go to one of those schools and start kicking everyone in the crotch. You can see them literally get lifted off the ground by the sheer force of the kick. Afterwards they were still grinning.

Seriously though, I've never had Chi explained to me as a supernatural force before. I was always under the impression that it was the art of channeling your energies, nothing supernatural in the sense of a spirit or whatnot.

Um, how, exactly, is that not supernatural?
Supernatural means beyond nature. Nature is whatever we can sense. We cannot sense these 'energies' through any known means--hell, no one can even define these 'energies' except as some vague 'life' or 'mental' force. People claim they can sense these 'energies', but fail every single time they're tested under controlled conditions.

Yeah, I agree with weemadando that chi is more of a mind set than anything supernatural with flowing energy.

I have to agree that the concept of Chi is more of a mind set than an actual mystical energy. Hey look I can use the Force! J/K

As for Judo, Judo is a sport. Judo was created as a sport more than a means of self defense. The dangerous and more painful techniques were removed from Jujitsu and thus.. Judo is born. I am not talking crap about Judo or saying a practicioner could not use those techniques for self defense. That said, all anyone needs to do is watch any "fighting Championship" series and see that grapplers will almost always win against a strike (punch and kick) fighter.

all anyone needs to do is watch any "fighting Championship" series and see that grapplers will almost always win against a strike (punch and kick) fighter.
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Yes, right.

A Kendo master or just a pretty good student could probably stop most attackers on the street with a stick.

Remember many of the older forms of asian martial arts were created by farmers to fend off attackers with whatever was on hand, a hoe, a rake, a short machete. Sure if you have a gun pointed at you you should keep the hell quiet and just give the guy your money. But if they have a knife there are a bunch of ways to stop them. The point of it was not to become a victem without a good reason.

Chi means the center or something does it not. This is how I have always taken it. Focus your mind on where you want your center (Usually your lower back and muscle near the hip) force to go. Where your center of gravity is, and how you control contributes alot to the force behind a punch/kick/throw.

Hmmm, My optimal martial art would be a little Aikido, with some Jijitsu, combined with some escrima, and a little wang chun Kung fu in. (some kempo for fun).

If you read the history of the concept of Chi in Chinese culture, it IS firmly rooted in Chinese superstition. It is seen as centering energy, as a life force, etc.

salm wrote: hmm... i don´t know. some martial arts seem pretty crapy for self defence.
judo for example. what can a judoka do against a tai boxer. he´ll just get his ass kicked so bad within seconds.
judo might be a fun and sports but for self defence against trained fighters who do the real stuff it´s basicly effectless.

Watch what your saying Salm. What a good judoka will do in a tournament is very different from what he will do on the street. He'll look to block because as you know, punches and kicks can be blocked by someone who has some level of competence. The he'll look to throw his opponent onto the cement floor. Very ineffective indeed.

Superman wrote:Don't get me wrong, the Asian styles are great! But yes, a good fighter is a good fighter is a good figher, regardless of the style he/she practices.

Couldn't agree with you more. BTW, I've always looked at chi as breath power. I've found the greatest asset to my martial arts conditioning has been proper, controlled breathing.