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By Andrew Gumbel in Los Angeles
07 March 2003

American military officials acknowledged yesterday that two prisoners captured in Afghanistan in December had been killed while under interrogation at Bagram air base north of Kabul – reviving concerns that the US is resorting to torture in its treatment of Taliban fighters and suspected al-Qa'ida operatives.

A spokesman for the air base confirmed that the official cause of death of the two men was "homicide", contradicting earlier accounts that one had died of a heart attack and the other from a pulmonary embolism.

The complete 411

Is anyone surprised by this?

"Whoops."

damn. now I have to ponder ethics again.

Frank Hipper wrote:Is anyone surprised by this?

Not really...given the time and circumstances

I quess we were just supposed to ask them nicely. Oh My God where is Alan Dershawitz

I can see beating them, but beating them to death is a bit much. . .

I disagree with physical torture, there are otherways of getting information.

Oh well, these are suicide bombers. They probably would have killed themselves sooner or later anyway.

And no, I'm not really surprised.

Beautiful how we all assume that because a few prisoners died we assume that it was torture by the US. How do we know that the prisoners werren't trying to escape or attack a guard?

Nevertheless there shouldn't be any sort of cover up. as long as the oil interests of the world are fighting each side of this conflict then there will never be peace ya? The sooner we get our hydrogen powered cars the sooner we can let the middle east destroy itself.

Thread Highjack I thought the greedy oil companies have bought all of the Hydo powered cars...

Darth Fanboy wrote:Beautiful how we all assume that because a few prisoners died we assume that it was torture by the US. How do we know that the prisoners werren't trying to escape or attack a guard?

Nevertheless there shouldn't be any sort of cover up. as long as the oil interests of the world are fighting each side of this conflict then there will never be peace ya? The sooner we get our hydrogen powered cars the sooner we can let the middle east destroy itself.

That may be true; however, it does appear that some at least questionable interrogating practices have been going on. Not that I feel sorry for them; I don't approve of torture, but I have absolutely no compunction about reveling in the pain and suffering of truly bad people.

Its wierd if the Americans beat a prisoner to make him talk everyone gets upset,but if the other side does it noone talk,the so called geneva convention is not worth the kleenex its written on.

Hameru wrote:By Andrew Gumbel in Los Angeles
07 March 2003

American military officials acknowledged yesterday that two prisoners captured in Afghanistan in December had been killed while under interrogation at Bagram air base north of Kabul – reviving concerns that the US is resorting to torture in its treatment of Taliban fighters and suspected al-Qa'ida operatives.

A spokesman for the air base confirmed that the official cause of death of the two men was "homicide", contradicting earlier accounts that one had died of a heart attack and the other from a pulmonary embolism.

The complete 411

Interrogation is not a pleasant experience, and enemies are generally under the impression that Amercians won't torture them. So whether or not it's true, I don't mind the perception being out there. It isn't as if captured Amercians aren't killed during interrogation. Speaking for the Army, we don't torture prisoners. I can't speak for the three-letter agencies.

For some reason I'm finding it very hard to give a shit about this.

Montcalm wrote:Its wierd if the Americans beat a prisoner to make him talk everyone gets upset,but if the other side does it noone talk,the so called geneva convention is not worth the kleenex its written on.

Pseudo strawman. People are rightfully upset about torture that takes place in other countries. People raise a big stink about the US doing it because we claim to be above the barbaric practices of other countries, yet we torture people anyway.

Darth Fanboy wrote:Beautiful how we all assume that because a few prisoners died we assume that it was torture by the US. How do we know that the prisoners werren't trying to escape or attack a guard?

If first they claim that they died of a heart attack and a pulmonary embolism and then say they actually died during interrogation by causing blunt force injuries and describing it as homicide, I think it's a fair bet it wasn't a legitimate and excusable action, or else they would have said the first time around that they died attacking a guard or attempting escape.

That's my 2 cents.

Montcalm wrote:Its wierd if the Americans beat a prisoner to make him talk everyone gets upset,but if the other side does it noone talk,the so called geneva convention is not worth the kleenex its written on.

A good point, so called "rules of warfare" only seem to apply to America.

Darth Fanboy wrote:

Montcalm wrote:Its wierd if the Americans beat a prisoner to make him talk everyone gets upset,but if the other side does it noone talk,the so called geneva convention is not worth the kleenex its written on.

A good point, so called "rules of warfare" only seem to apply to America.

The rules of warfare apply to the so called "civilized world", of which the U.S is part. There's no need to tell anybody that the taliban, Saddam and alike are blood thirsty savages who torture and kill their victims.

We like to think we're better than them.

That includes obeying to certain rules of conduct and engagement, knowing that the other side will not follow them.

When the war is over, we then proceed to judge them as criminals, warlords, rapists, murderers and genocidal maniacs.

"So, I don't suppose you could give us some information on where the next attack will be? Oh, there's no hurry... Some more coffee?"


What did you expect? I'm not suprised we're torturing them... I'm just suprised that they actually caused the death of one. I was thinking they'd use methods that wouldn't leave marks...

Montcalm wrote:Its wierd if the Americans beat a prisoner to make him talk everyone gets upset,but if the other side does it noone talk,the so called geneva convention is not worth the kleenex its written on.

Actually, the convention doesn;t protect al-Qa'ida nor does civilian law. Terrorist have no legal protections. The convention also states that if your enemy does not follow the treaty then you do not have to either. Neither the Taliban or al-Qa'ida follow the convention.

FUCK THIS.

I still am recovering from the 3rd degree burns from the Geneva convention threads on ASVS from a YEAR AGO.

I'm not surprised in the slightest, but I am happy to see America's moral superiority to the terrorists rapidly diminishing.

weemadando wrote:FUCK THIS.

I still am recovering from the 3rd degree burns from the Geneva convention threads on ASVS from a YEAR AGO.

I'm not surprised in the slightest, but I am happy to see America's moral superiority to the terrorists rapidly diminishing.

Why are you happy about that? I thought that you'd be upset!

Are the US going out of their way to break rules now?

Gandalf wrote:Are the US going out of their way to break rules now?

The Geneva Conventions against torture do not apply to everyone, Gandalf. Sea Skimmer has already noted this.