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Do you think being an Athiest makes it harder to find someone to date?
To marry? Most of my friends have no religious beliefs and I realize I never sought out friends like that it just seemed to happen.

TrailerParkJawa wrote:Do you think being an Athiest makes it harder to find someone to date?

I think it would depend on how common religious intolerance is in your area. If every girl you meet asks "what church do you go to" as one of the first questions, you're probably screwed.

To marry?

See the micro-bio on my personal home page.

Most of my friends have no religious beliefs and I realize I never sought out friends like that it just seemed to happen.

Most of my university friends were Christians. It just happened that way. Rebecca was a Christian too (although she has since left the church), and we were married in a Christian wedding.

A lot of parents have fallen for the Christian fundamentalist bigots' notion that Christians are better people. I'm willing to bet that you could poll a thousand parents in North America about whether they'd be unhappy if their daughter dates an atheist, and get a "yes" response from the majority.

TrailerParkJawa wrote:Do you think being an Athiest makes it harder to find someone to date?
To marry? Most of my friends have no religious beliefs and I realize I never sought out friends like that it just seemed to happen.

Most people in NZ dont give a rats arse about your religeon, and it does not seem to affect your chances of geting a date. I suspect that that may not be true of immigrants who are Muslim or of some cultures, but NZ is fairly laid back society now about religeon..wasnt always so however.

Mixing religions isn't really a problem here in NY. I have many friends with many different religions. Some are Catholic (as am I), some are Muslims, some are Hindus, some are Russian Orthadox, etc. A few atheists I know of in RL are not exactly what you would call the normal type, but I know one online (not anyone here) that is a very normal person. He faced a similar problem. He liked a Christian girl, and she liked him. When she found out he wasn't a Christian, I believe her parents didn't want them to see each other anymore. He was upset about that. She tried converting him, but he didn't. I had a long talk with him about this. I think that you're better off believing there is a higher power than you. You should watch yourself in life and not always be so inconsiderate and wreckless. You should try to be aware of just what you are doing and if it is right or wrong. I just happen to believe in God as that higher power.

nope.

Even if you don't have any friends, you can still have your cat.

Mixing religions isn't really a problem here in NY. I have many friends with many different religions. Some are Catholic (as am I), some are Muslims, some are Hindus, some are Russian Orthadox, etc. A few atheists I know of in RL are not exactly what you would call the normal type, but I know one online (not anyone here) that is a very normal person. He faced a similar problem. He liked a Christian girl, and she liked him. When she found out he wasn't a Christian, I believe her parents didn't want them to see each other anymore. He was upset about that. She tried converting him, but he didn't. I had a long talk with him about this. I think that you're better off believing there is a higher power than you. You should watch yourself in life and not always be so inconsiderate and wreckless. You should try to be aware of just what you are doing and if it is right or wrong. I just happen to believe in God as that higher power.

Personally, I think this girlfriend is an arsehole. You too, if you think that being a Christian makes you less "inconsiderate and reckless". You should be able to judge people by who they are, not what building they go to on the weekend. Perhaps you could give me some proof that being an atheist makes you inconsiderate and reckless?

And how does this story support your claim that "mixing religions isn't a problem here in NY."???? All it does is highlight an example in which someone was discriminated against because of their religious beliefs.

And I'll take "not the normal type." as a compliment. I like to think that I'm a bit eccentric.

TrailerParkJawa wrote:Do you think being an Athiest makes it harder to find someone to date?
To marry? Most of my friends have no religious beliefs and I realize I never sought out friends like that it just seemed to happen.

There is no difference between Atheists and Non-Atheists on the chance to date.

Whereas Non-Atheists have religious-based organizations which give a chance to get to know other girls and boys, there are a lot on non-religious based organizations.

The chance to date is a more based on looks and character then on any other specific.

For marriage, the same thing goes. There is no difference between Atheists & Non-Atheists.

With regrds,

Meghel

Personally, I think this girlfriend is an arsehole. You too, if you think that being a Christian makes you less "inconsiderate and reckless". You should be able to judge people by who they are, not what building they go to on the weekend. Perhaps you could give me some proof that being an atheist makes you inconsiderate and reckless?

And how does this story support your claim that "mixing religions isn't a problem here in NY."???? All it does is highlight an example in which someone was discriminated against because of their religious beliefs.

And I'll take "not the normal type." as a compliment. I like to think that I'm a bit eccentric.

WtF are you raving about?! This "girlfriend" was never even a girlfriend to my online friend. The idea stopped long before that could ever happen. I thought it was sad myself. And why is the "girlfriend" an asshole? She didn't want to not see him. Her parents decided that for her. There is little you can do against your parents. These are high school kids, not adults.

Besides, it didn't even happen in NY. I live in NY. He lives somewhere out West. Ohio or some state around there. And why are you all of a sudden saying that I think I am superior to everyone else? What is with you atheists here on this message board???

I am merely stating that I believe people should be wary of how they live, and then you immediately assume I am claiming that I am better than everyone else. Of course I am aware that people that don't believe in God or some other supreme being or nothing at all are just like us. What I can't understand is why you aren't aware that people who believe in God are just like you as well.

And I haven't been to Church for ages. I haven't confessed, I haven't done any of that. I feel guilty about it, but I don't think I'm going to go to hell for it. Don't think that just because we believe in God, we all have the exact same interpretations on how to worship or how to believe in what God really is. That would be like me saying, "All atheists are the same. They are godless communists that have no compassion for fellow human beings. They are like evil Vulcans." But obvioiusly that is not true.

The two atheists I know from school are completely different from people here. One is disabled. He was unable to use his legs at birth. He has to wear leg braces for the rest of his life just to walk. And he can't walk perfectly either. This is a horrible thing that I wish never happened to anyone. When I first went to highschool, I wondered what the hell is wrong with this kid? He's so bitter, mean, and just obnoxious to everyone. Everyone except teachers. People that were just there, he would annoy the shit out of them. So at lunch, I asked him why. He couldn't come up with an answer. I always was nice to him. Until he turned his guns on me. He was and is still fond of tormenting me for an unapparant reason. I found out years later that he doesn't believe in God. It is obvious that he lost his faith in God because of his leg braces, which is very sad. To this day, I still don't know how to treat him. He always insults me. Most of the times, I say nothing. Sometimes I get annoyed and say something back. It's on and off. Sometimes, he's just a normal guy. Other times, he has these weird mood swings and starts spewing out random crap just to be a mean bastard to everyone. It's a really weird situation.

The other person I knew was very different from the first person I mentioned. I found out he was an atheist from the start. But I haven't seen this guy in such a long time. He was a smart kid, but not in class. He read encyclopedias for fun, yet didn't apply this knowledge to what he had to actually do in school, but how to belittle teachers. He loved video games, comics, the internet, screwing around on the computer, all sorts of things that "smart guys" do, except work. He always defied teachers. One time he was called out once for disrupting the class. When he went back in, he said something else. He was called out again. When he went back in, he said something else. This time he was called out and then he was suspended. He was sort of an intellectual rogue. He lived with his mother. His father died or left him or something to that effect. It was constantly depressing to see such a smart kid get shitty grades and do petty things such as vandalism and theft. He was an odd type.

Now I know two atheists out of the millions in the world isn't grounds for saying all atheists are weird, have problems, and are crude. But out of all the atheists I know of, whenever there is any mention of religion, they blatantly state that there is no such thing as God, that none of it exists, and that it is foolish to follow the rules and everything set for mankind to follow. And then they wish to get rid of it from the public, like it is a threat to people. Like they want to erase it from the history of the world. But what they fail to realize is that people need something to live by. I'm not just talking about laws, I'm talking about guidelines on how to live and do the "right thing." And if they need something to live by, why not pick the Ten Commandments? If everyone followed the ten big ones, then there would be no war, no crime, no jealousy, no hate, no racism, no bigotry, no adultry, no cheating, no nothing. And atheists reject it just because a lot of the Bible doesn't make sense. Well then disregard the Bible and live by the Ten Commandments, because they do make sense.

And now because I am saying what to do, I am about to get zinged because it's religion and not an insult or logic. Everyone else says and is expected to say stuff like, "Go fuck off." This is perfectly fine. Then someone says, "Go worship God." BAN HIM! BAN HIM!!! HE IS THE RELIGIOUS NUT! THE FUNDAMENTALIST THAT TRIES TO SPREAD HIS STUPIDITY HERE!!! BAN HIM!!! TROLL!!!!!!!!!

Well I'm anything but a fundamentalist. I think those guys are crazy. Like the one who tried to kill the T-Rex in that other thread. LOL I could even be considered a, "not very religious person." I try to pray as often as possible, but I only go to Church for holidays. I used to go almost every Sunday though. Oh well. Times change when you get older. I might post more on this tomorrow.....might...... btw I agree Meghel.

Aparently, there is this imperative fed to Christian kids (well, at least the ones in my church) that your future spouse should be Christian as well, otherwise conflicts might result.

I don't really care either way. I know a few free-thinkers and atheists, none of which are really lacking for friends. Maybe it's just that lonely people get disillusioned and this leads them to begin thinking that God does not exist.
Thing is, the beliefs they have don't necessarily make them bad people (until they start spraying them around).

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:I am merely stating that I believe people should be wary of how they live, and then you immediately assume I am claiming that I am better than everyone else.

Actually, you said that "I think that you're better off believing there is a higher power than you. You should watch yourself in life and not always be so inconsiderate and wreckless", which pretty much accuses atheists of being inconsiderate and reckless.

The rest of your post, in which you ramble about two atheists you don't like, is just more of the same bullshit. You say bad things about atheists, you try to pretend that their atheism is somehow the cause of these bad things, and then you act shocked if atheists take offense. Blow me.

Of course I am aware that people that don't believe in God or some other supreme being or nothing at all are just like us. What I can't understand is why you aren't aware that people who believe in God are just like you as well.

We do. That's why we don't go to churches and bother Christians. We believe your religion is your private business. Unfortunately, too many Christians refuse to extend the same courtesy to everyone else. They insist on making religion a public thing, so that there is peer pressure to conform to whatever they do.

You act as though we are applying an unequal standard, when all we want is for you to treat others as you would have them treat you. Hmmm, wait a minute; that sounds familiar ...

He was and is still fond of tormenting me for an unapparant reason. I found out years later that he doesn't believe in God. It is obvious that he lost his faith in God because of his leg braces, which is very sad.

Why is that "obvious"?

Now I know two atheists out of the millions in the world isn't grounds for saying all atheists are weird, have problems, and are crude. But out of all the atheists I know of, whenever there is any mention of religion, they blatantly state that there is no such thing as God, that none of it exists, and that it is foolish to follow the rules and everything set for mankind to follow.

Let me get this straight: if you bring up the subject in conversation, it's somehow rude of them to state their opinion? Do you see them seeking out religious people and trying to start these conversations?

And then they wish to get rid of it from the public, like it is a threat to people. Like they want to erase it from the history of the world.

Or perhaps they simply want people to stop obnoxiously shoving it in other peoples' faces. Did that ever occur to you? I guess not.

But what they fail to realize is that people need something to live by.

I like the way you say you won't make generalizations about atheists, and then you immediately proceed to make generalizations about atheists. What makes you think atheists don't realize people need "something to live by?" Everyone needs a set of values, but those values don't necessarily have to come from superstition.

I'm not just talking about laws, I'm talking about guidelines on how to live and do the "right thing." And if they need something to live by, why not pick the Ten Commandments?

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationis ... ents.shtml

If everyone followed the ten big ones, then there would be no war, no crime, no jealousy, no hate, no racism, no bigotry, no adultry, no cheating, no nothing.

Bullshit. The first commandment instructs people that not worshipping your God is evil, ie- that every religion but yours is evil. That is bigotry; how can bigotry possibly eliminate bigotry?

And atheists reject it just because a lot of the Bible doesn't make sense. Well then disregard the Bible and live by the Ten Commandments, because they do make sense.

Once again, bullshit. The Ten Commandments would only make sense as a universal value system if you deleted #1, #2, #3, #4, and #10, and rearranged them so that #6 is at the top of the list.

And now because I am saying what to do, I am about to get zinged because it's religion and not an insult or logic. Everyone else says and is expected to say stuff like, "Go fuck off." This is perfectly fine. Then someone says, "Go worship God." BAN HIM! BAN HIM!!! HE IS THE RELIGIOUS NUT! THE FUNDAMENTALIST THAT TRIES TO SPREAD HIS STUPIDITY HERE!!! BAN HIM!!! TROLL!!!!!!!!!

Strawman. I don't ban people for being Christians, and I have put a great deal of effort into explaining my positions on this site, but you obviously lack either the patience to bother reading those arguments, never mind understanding them, so you would rather just simplify them so that they fit neatly into your fantasy world where all atheists are just bitter assholes who have no value system, and everything would be perfect if we all followed your Ten Commandments.

My closest friends are atheists, but some of my best friends are Christians, including my girlfriend.
In my experience, religion isn't too much of a problem when it comes to friendship. One friend in particular that I have is a good example of that.
He's definitely on the creationist side of the spectrum, but he's not an asshole, so we're able to be great friends. He doesn't try to convert people, and he's tolerant of other ideas, even if he thinks they're bullshit.
But even with people like him, friendship is possible because religion doesn't really come up very often (if at all) in day-to-day life.
Now that I think of it, most of my friends are Buddhists. But like I said, religion simply isn't discussed. And it's not not discussed out of some taboo; it's simply not the type of thing friends talk about, in my experience.

And as far as religion/non-religion and romance goes, it's very possible. It's obviously not going to happen between a die-hard fundie and a vocal freethinker, but between a liberal Christian and an atheist, it's very possible. Darth Wong pointed out his own experience as an excellent example. My parents are another example. My dad is an atheist, and my mom is a non-practicing Catholic. They have an extremely healthy, very loving relationship.
The key to it is that the religionist in the relationship has to be liberal enough in their religion to accept that God rewards (using Judaism/Christianity/Islam here, as they seem to be the prevalent group on the board) his subjects in the afterlife based on merit and not based on faith. Otherwise they'll either be eaten by guilt at their partner's doomed destiny and/or they'll constantly try to convert and save their partner, which will destroy the relationship.

Being an atheist can get you segregated just as quickly as being a religious nut, largely because even agnostics and 'casual Christians' can and do associate atheism with immorality. I believe that through that, many fence sitters dislike associating with an atheist even if they have no other reason to.

I don't bother telling people what I believe anymore. If they aren't listening too closely, I may say I'm an apatheist and hope they don't catch on.

Actually, you said that "I think that you're better off believing there is a higher power than you. You should watch yourself in life and not always be so inconsiderate and wreckless" , which pretty much accuses atheists of being inconsiderate and reckless.

I didn't intend "you" to mean "you atheists." I meant it to mean "you, the reader" in general. Everyone who reads this post.

The rest of your post, in which you ramble about two atheists you don't like, is just more of the same bullshit. You say bad things about atheists, you try to pretend that their atheism is somehow the cause of these bad things, and then you act shocked if atheists take offense. Blow me.

Correction: One of them I don't like. The other, I like. Let's call them by their first names only. The one I don't like is named Steve. The one I like is named Mike. Mike and I always used to debate SW vs ST and such. Fun guy to debate with, although he was a Trekkie. And I didn't say Mike and Steve had those problems because they were atheists. I said they became atheists because of those problems. Neither of them had a father to be raised by. Mike had no family whatsoever other than his mother. Steve, I'm not sure about, but he only lives with his mom. Everyone else I know that believes in some religion have family. So maybe this is a cause for atheism. Do any ahteists here have large families?

We do. That's why we don't go to churches and bother Christians. We believe your religion is your private business. Unfortunately, too many Christians refuse to extend the same courtesy to everyone else. They insist on making religion a public thing, so that there is peer pressure to conform to whatever they do.

Besides the wacky fundamentalists, what peer pressure is there? Christmas trees, Santa Claus, priests walking around in the streets, people saying, "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Easter" or a politically correct version, "Happy Holidays"? How is that peer pressure? Some people want to remove all of that. There are people out there, not necessarily ayone on this message board, that really intend to remove all of this...call it.....cheeryness from all public society. That's nuts. Removing "under God" from the pledge of allegiance. Taking out, "In God we trust," on money. Anything to do with God in anything to do with government. Are you really offended by people saying, "God bless you!"? "God bless America!" "God save the Queen!" "May Allah smile upon you!" "God be with you!," aka "Good bye!" Praying in school led by teachers isn't allowed, but it is allowed if it is led by students, and not everyone has to take part in it. If this isn't what you mean, then what other things are there that have a peer pressure affect on atheists? I'm seriously curious. I want to know if any of these things truly offend people and why.

You act as though we are applying an unequal standard, when all we want is for you to treat others as you would have them treat you. Hmmm, wait a minute; that sounds familiar ...

The thing is that people (I guess I'm guilty of it as well) get unfomfortable when people say there is no God. Sure, I don't mind people saying that God isn't God, but Allah. Or that you misinterpreted God, and he's really not a man, but a form of energy envoloping the whole universe. Or anything similar to that. But it's just disturbing to hear that there is no God at all. Nothing there. Just an empty void. Nothing to pass final judgement. No one power that decides what to do with the bad guys and the good guys. Nothing there at all. It's chilling. At least to me, it is. So I apologize for acting too harsh, if my apology is valid anymore.

Why is that "obvious"?

There was a lot of things before he openly stated, "There is no fucking God!" that suggested he was in conflict with himself about whether or not to believe in God or not. He went to Church. He never said anything to people when they made reference to God in song lyrics they were reading off of a CD or whenever we talked about episodes of The Simpons involving God. Up until recently, he hasn't said anything of that sort. But one time last year, when another friend of mine, Ryan (who's a Catholic), was talking about God on The Simpsons flicking Homer outside Eden (LOL), that was when he said, "There is no fucking God!" So it is obvious that he lost faith in God over the years.

Let me get this straight: if you bring up the subject in conversation, it's somehow rude of them to state their opinion? Do you see them seeking out religious people and trying to start these conversations?

Is saying something so stupid as to God flicking Homer out of Eden grounds for blatantly saying, "There is no fucking God!" That is pretty rude if you ask me. If he said something about a movie that didn't have a God in it or the people didn't believe there was a God in it, and then he agrees, and then I said to him, "There is a fucking God!," this isn't rude? Now if I calmly said, "I believe there is a God," I wouldn't say that is rude at all. If he calmly said, "I believe there is no God," I wouldn't say that is rude at all.

Or perhaps they simply want people to stop obnoxiously shoving it in other peoples' faces. Did that ever occur to you? I guess not.

It does occur to me. I am in disbelief that such simple things as the word "God" is shoving it in your face.

I like the way you say you won't make generalizations about atheists, and then you immediately proceed to make generalizations about atheists. What makes you think atheists don't realize people need "something to live by?" Everyone needs a set of values, but those values don't necessarily have to come from superstition.

When I said, "But what they fail to realize is that people need something to live by," I meant the Ten Commandments. Note that in the line after I said, "I'm not just talking about laws, I'm talking about guidelines on how to live and do the "right thing." And if they need something to live by, why not pick the Ten Commandments?" I was referring to the Ten Commandments before I actually mentioned them, so I guess that's an understandable mistake. Atheists do consider regular laws made by them/governments to be what you should live by, right? Atheists don't consider the Ten Commandments to be values but superstition as you said. Right? So they don't realize that the Ten Commandments are not superstition and are something to live by. Right? Or am I seriously mistaken on the fact that atheists don't believe in any religion whatsoever? I was wrong in saying that "people need to" blah blah this and that hibbity jibbity. I should have said something along the lines of, "Whether or not you believe in God is up to you. But people should have a reference point in life. Some solid, clearly defined morals and values." That is what I am trying to say.

Bullshit. The first commandment instructs people that not worshipping your God is evil , ie- that every religion but yours is evil. That is bigotry; how can bigotry possibly eliminate bigotry?

Once again, bullshit. The Ten Commandments would only make sense as a universal value system if you deleted #1, #2, #3, #4, and #10, and rearranged them so that #6 is at the top of the list.

That is what I meant. If you didn't believe in God, then why would those commandments apply? They wouldn't, so it wouldn't make a difference anyway.

Strawman. I don't ban people for being Christians, and I have put a great deal of effort into explaining my positions on this site, but you obviously lack either the patience to bother reading those arguments, never mind understanding them, so you would rather just simplify them so that they fit neatly into your fantasy world where all atheists are just bitter assholes who have no value system, and everything would be perfect if we all followed your Ten Commandments.

I'll read your site more carefully then. And thank you not for banning me. And I am not ignorant to the fact that not all atheists are bitter assholes. My friend online, for example, is anything but a bitter asshole. Mike, for example, is anything but a bitter asshole...if you aren't a teacher.

Everyone else I know that believes in some religion have family. So maybe this is a cause for atheism.

Why does atheism need to have a "cause"? Atheism is a default condition; no one believes in anything they can't see until you put the idea in their heads.

Besides the wacky fundamentalists, what peer pressure is there?

For the second time, read the micro-bio on my personal home page. It's easy to say there's no discrimination or pressure when you're sitting comfortably with the majority.

That's nuts. Removing "under God" from the pledge of allegiance. Taking out, "In God we trust," on money. Anything to do with God in anything to do with government. Are you really offended by people saying, "God bless you!"? "God bless America!" "God save the Queen!" "May Allah smile upon you!" "God be with you!," aka "Good bye!" Praying in school led by teachers isn't allowed, but it is allowed if it is led by students, and not everyone has to take part in it. If this isn't what you mean, then what other things are there that have a peer pressure affect on atheists?

That is fucking peer pressure, you idiot! Are you seriously so fucking stupid that you can't figure out why that bullshit is peer pressure? If everyone in the class is participating in something and you have to sit out by yourself, you honestly can't figure out that this is peer pressure? If you are being made to pay taxes to a government which instructs you to worship a particular God in order to be considered a loyal citizen, you don't consider that peer pressure? Are you a complete idiot?

The thing is that people (I guess I'm guilty of it as well) get unfomfortable when people say there is no God. Sure, I don't mind people saying that God isn't God, but Allah. Or that you misinterpreted God, and he's really not a man, but a form of energy envoloping the whole universe. Or anything similar to that. But it's just disturbing to hear that there is no God at all.

First you say that you don't see how constant public invocations of God or Allah can possibly be offensive or exclusionary, even when they are paid for by the taxes of people who don't believe in God or in many cases, vehemently dislike his teachings. Then you turn around and say that you don't like hearing people say there is no God. Do you realize how badly you've contradicted yourself? If it bothers you to hear atheists saying what they believe in public, why don't you understand why it should bother atheists to hear you say what you believe in public, and with their tax dollars to boot?

Nothing there. Just an empty void. Nothing to pass final judgement. No one power that decides what to do with the bad guys and the good guys. Nothing there at all. It's chilling. At least to me, it is. So I apologize for acting too harsh, if my apology is valid anymore.

It's not chilling; it's a clarion call to deal with problems right here, right now, rather than waiting for some cosmic Big Brother to deal with them.

Darth Wong wrote:Why is that obvious?

But one time last year, when another friend of mine, Ryan (who's a Catholic), was talking about God on The Simpsons flicking Homer outside Eden (LOL), that was when he said, "There is no fucking God!" So it is obvious that he lost faith in God over the years.

You're ignoring the question; why do you think it's obvious that his loss of faith had something to do with his infirmity? Why do you always try to tie atheism to some kind of trauma, as if it's some sort of disease?

Is saying something so stupid as to God flicking Homer out of Eden grounds for blatantly saying, "There is no fucking God!" That is pretty rude if you ask me. If he said something about a movie that didn't have a God in it or the people didn't believe there was a God in it, and then he agrees, and then I said to him, "There is a fucking God!," this isn't rude?

Of course it's rude. Do you understand why it's rude, then, to put God on the currency, in the pledge of allegiance, in "student-led" school prayer, etc? Every time you do that, you are essentially walking up to every atheist around you and shouting in his face "there is a God, and your tax dollars are helping to promote him!"

Now if I calmly said, "I believe there is a God," I wouldn't say that is rude at all. If he calmly said, "I believe there is no God," I wouldn't say that is rude at all.

So it's OK to say the exact same thing but without using the word "fuck"? Style over substance? I guess I'm one of those foolish people who cares more about what you say than how you say it.

It does occur to me. I am in disbelief that such simple things as the word "God" is shoving it in your face.

It is when you do it in public ceremonies where people have to exclude themselves from the majority in order to remain true to their beliefs (or lack thereof), or when you do it with tax money.

And if they need something to live by, why not pick the Ten Commandments?"

Read The Fucking Website

So they don't realize that the Ten Commandments are not superstition and are something to live by. Right?

We realize it. We also realize that they're a lousy set of rules to live by, because they enshrine bigotry into law.

Or am I seriously mistaken on the fact that atheists don't believe in any religion whatsoever? I was wrong in saying that "people need to" blah blah this and that hibbity jibbity. I should have said something along the lines of, "Whether or not you believe in God is up to you. But people should have a reference point in life. Some solid, clearly defined morals and values." That is what I am trying to say.

And you assume that this has something to do with religion? Why? Why do morals and values have to be related to religion? Does it occur to you that secular humanism is a set of morals and values, and it is independent of religion?

That is what I meant. If you didn't believe in God, then why would those commandments apply? They wouldn't, so it wouldn't make a difference anyway.

Ah, so instead of saying we should "all" live by the Ten Commandments, you were really saying that we should all live by the Six Commandments, and that the Four Extra Bigoted Commandments are for Christians only, just to remind them that they're better than everyone else. OK, you should have been more clear.

I'll read your site more carefully then. And thank you not for banning me. And I am not ignorant to the fact that not all atheists are bitter assholes. My friend online, for example, is anything but a bitter asshole. Mike, for example, is anything but a bitter asshole...if you aren't a teacher.

Then you should beware your constant bigoted implications that atheism is some sort of affliction, or that it represents an absence of values and morals.

I think I should just stay away from these topics from now on.....

I live in a more conservative area, and most of the people are Christian. There are a few Atheists, but they're usually high school kids, and I bet they came from a religous family, and before 8th grade, were religous themselves. They're not attacked for it, though.

This reminds me of a girl I'm still obsessed over. She's a devout Catholic, but I'm still obsessed over her.

RayCav of ASVS wrote:This reminds me of a girl I'm still obsessed over. She's a devout Catholic, but I'm still obsessed over her.

And she won't date you because you're not Catholic? Or won't you date her because she's too religious? Which way does the barrier stand? Usually it's the overly religious one who is picky.

Yes, yet another long rambling post from me. . . hopefully it's got enough content to justify the length

IRG CommandoJoe wrote: I think I should just stay away from these topics from now on.....

Don't. You seem to be trying to be tolerant . . . but a bunch of unconscious assumptions you appear to be making mean you aren't quite getting there. It takes a LOT to get banned from these boards - even being utterly irrational and annoying is not enough (take a look at pretty much anything written by Priesto. His title of 'Fundamentalist Moron' is well deserved). You, at least, appear to be trying to understand and learn something.

I'll try phrasing things in a less aggressive way (it really shouldn't make a difference, as it's a matter of giving in to the style-over-substance fallacy - but I suspect, in this case, you may find it a little easier to digest). I strongly recommend developing a thick skin though - plenty of people around here, if they spot something that looks remotely irrational or bigoted will charge in with all guns blazing (hell, I'm often one of them, when I'm not on the receiving end). And usually, they'll have a point - being able to get past the style and recognise the substance is a valuable skill to have, because several of the aggressive debaters on these boards are definitely worth listening to. I really, really suggest sitting down and going over Mike's posts carefully - there are several questions in there that are really worth considering if you are interested in understanding both atheism and your own attitudes towards it.

You make the point that a lot of people have trouble with the concept of there being nothing out there. They take comfort in the idea of some 'higher existence' which makes it easier for them to cope with the real world. In a certain way, they can take refuge in their concept of this transcendental realm. And, so long as they don't do this instead of coping with the real world, there's no problem with it. But any course of action has to be judged by its consequences in this world - because that is the only world we can all agree exists. When people try to claim that their unfounded beliefs trump the realities of the world, then we have a conflict, because people do not agree on the nature of the transcendent. (Make no mistake - with the exception of atheism, beliefs about the transcendental have no basis in the objective world. Their only basis is in subjective experience - i.e do they work for you and provide assistance in dealing with the real world? Atheism scores an exception simply because it says there is nothing except the real world).

It is precisely this discomfort that causes many people to feel uncomfortable with the concept of atheism - the very existence of atheists causes them to confront the validity of the central tenets of their belief system. Pretty much anything which challenges your beliefs is going to be uncomfortable - that's human nature. The problem is, because so many people are believers (in something), the reaction is often one of lashing out at the non-believers (or institutionalising things, such as the 1954 revamp of the US Pledge of Allegiance, that promote faith), rather than confronting the fact that the core assumption of any faith (the existence of the transcendental) has no basis in objective reality. The people who are able to make (and deal with) that latter realisation are the ones who are quite capable of understanding and getting along with atheists. You believe in a transcendental realm, and I don't. It's no big deal from my end - but are you prepared to cope with the concept that I find the idea of God or the transcendent an unnecessary distraction?

Atheism makes it possible to strip away the trappings of religion and focus on the actual morals and values that allow humans to successfully relate to each other. With no transcendental realm to distract us, it is possible to focus on the here and now, and on the consequences in this world. Why waste time speculating about the unknowable (and probably non-existent), when so much of the knowable is still to be explored?

What many atheists find annoying is this seemingly prevalent attitude that "it doesn't matter what you believe in, so long as you believe in something". It is possible for morals to exist independent of religious beliefs - and I suspect many moderate Christians would be surprised at how often they use their independently acquired moral code to determine which aspects of the Christian faith they actually accept.

On the matter of the specific stories about the two atheists you knew - the problem I perceived was that you seemed to be speculating a lot about their motivations, and those speculations carried a very negative attitude towards atheism. Maybe you didn't realise it came across that way - and that may mean you need to re-examine your own attitudes. Both of your friends at high school had issues, and happened to be atheists. You linked their being atheists to their issues. Maybe this is true, maybe it isn't, but suppose I was the one who knew those two people, and was suggesting they had a belief in Christianity which was related to their problems?

You also asked the question about a correlation between atheism and small familes/family troubles etc? Again, suppose I was to ask you about a perceived correlation between Christianity and family breakup? Trying to find a "cause" for Christianity, like it was some kind of disease? Can you see how asking those sorts of questions outside a scientific study might be construed as offensive? (Actually here's a thought for you - many thinkers over the centuries have independently adopted a position advocating atheism. How many have independently come up with the doctrines of any of the existing religions? Says something interesting about what is genuinely universal, doesn't it?).

FWIW: I'm the youngest of seven children, and my parents are in their 40th year of marriage. Good Catholic family and upbringing. However, my parents no longer subscribe completely to Catholic doctrine (or even some dogma). I'm an atheist. Some of my siblings still consider themselves Christian. A couple believe in something but they aren't sure what. And you know what? None of it really matters to any of us (well, one of my brothers is pretty dubious about the whole atheist thing - but he's decided in his own mind that I'm really an agnostic and seems happy with that). Real significance of any of that? None really - except that it is possible to embrace the idea of atheism without having to go through any sort of significant suffering or trauma.

Well, between my ex-wife and myself, 99% of all her hang-ups with me was caused by her religeous convictions. and their conflict with my beliefs. We had a very short marriage, but concieved a child during it. Right now, our child is 4 years old, and loves Harry Potter and Star Wars. Both of these are an affront to her. (Harry Poter because of the use of magic, and Star Wars, because John really, really, really likes Darth Maul and Darth Vader) So we have constant battles over what John watches when he's with each of us. I tend to let our son watch pretty much what catches his interest (within reason). My ex (Kathy) pretty much tries to counteract this by making him watch Teletubbies (which was fine when he was one) and Veggie Tales. (A Christian based CGI Cartoon)

In contrast. Both me and my current girlfriend are athiests, and are quite happy with each other. We have one daughter together (so far) and we've been together for almost four years now. We're now bracing ourselves for when John's indoctrination comes into direct conflict with Mara's (I'll borrow a term from Darth Wong) Default Mode.

To those who insinuated that athiests simply come from homes with small or non-existant families. I was raised in a very religeous family. (Father's side is Lutheran, Mother's side was Baptist.) And went to church every sunday with my mothers (entire) side of the family, and occasionally with my father's (entire) side of the family. I started questioning my faith early in my teens, mainly due to the disturbingly blank look my fellow church goers (and particularly my Aunt Terry) gave me when they mentioned god. From my early teens to early twenties I simply considered myself a Christian with agnostic leanings. I met and later married Kathy who, knowing full well my religeous convictions (or lack thereof) insisted that we read the bible together front and back. Until then my only bible readings had been in church "guided" by the minister.

In a way, I probably should thank her. Reading the bible front to back, without interference was what made me "loose my faith." Nothing else could have done so well in showing the inherent contradictions (not to mention blood thirstiness and injustices) in the bible.

Why would being an atheist make me lonely? There are plenty of people who don't care that I am an atheist, and I really don't care if they are religious, so long as they don't bother me about religion. I plainly associate with all manner of religious people, including some trips overseas in which I have lived in Israel and Switzerland (outside of Zurich, but there are lots of fundamentalists, there). I really don't care that they have religious beliefs. I was raised by a Catholic mother (my father's family was Protestant, but he was not nearly so devout as his family, his grandfather was a chaplain).

This is essentially another stereotype of atheists, just like "Are you really a Muslim? Are you a terrorist?" Or something similarly stupid.

We had a very short marriage, but concieved a child during it. Right now, our child is 4 years old, and loves Harry Potter and Star Wars. Both of these are an affront to her. (Harry Poter because of the use of magic, and Star Wars, because John really, really, really likes Darth Maul and Darth Vader

Awww a little future Sith Lord, there so cute before they kill thier parents and marry thier sister(Heh almost happend to Luke )

Yes, he's "Daddy's Little Sith Lord" That pic was taken about a year-and-a-half ago.

Here's one taken about nine months after that....that's his daddy with him

Don't forget when he's eight to get him that Dart-Board with Jar-Jar Pic

Lagmonster wrote:

RayCav of ASVS wrote:This reminds me of a girl I'm still obsessed over. She's a devout Catholic, but I'm still obsessed over her.

And she won't date you because you're not Catholic? Or won't you date her because she's too religious? Which way does the barrier stand? Usually it's the overly religious one who is picky.

Well, as I understand it it's because I'm not Catholic, but as I also understand it it's also because I'm "fat, ugly, and stupid, without the stupid" (thanks anarchistbunny!). That, and the fact that I never let that get in the way of my pursuit of her.

Thank you for all the answers. Im asked my question initially thinking most Athiests would normally seek out another Athiest to marry or date.

From the responses Ive seen I would take it not to be the case. I personally dont think marriages that mix religions will work well, but thats just my opinion.

So, I would tink a non religious person with a religous person would be even more uncompatible.