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The Rage, the Pride and the Doubt - By Oriana Fallaci.

Posted: 2003-03-16 01:06am
by The Duchess of Zeon
Thoughts on the eve of battle in Iraq.

Thursday, March 13, 2003 12:01 a.m.


To avoid the dilemma of whether this war should take place or not, to overcome the reservations and the reluctance and the doubts that still lacerate me, I often say to myself: "How good if the Iraqis would get free of Saddam Hussein by themselves. How good if they would execute him and hang up his body by the feet as in 1945 we Italians did with Mussolini." But it does not help. Or it helps in one way only. The Italians, in fact, could get free of Mussolini because in 1945 the Allies had conquered almost four-fifths of Italy. In other words, because the Second World War had taken place. A war without which we would have kept Mussolini (and Hitler) forever. A war during which the allies had pitilessly bombed us and we had died like mosquitoes. The Allies, too. At Salerno, at Anzio, at Cassino. Along the road from Rome to Florence, then on the terrible Gothic Line. In less than two years, 45,806 dead among the Americans and 17,500 among the English, the Canadians, the Australians, the New Zealanders, the South Africans, the Indians, the Brazilians. And also the French who had chosen De Gaulle, also the Italians who had chosen the Fifth or the Eighth Army. (Can anybody guess how many cemeteries of Allied soldiers there are in Italy? More than sixty. And the largest, the most crowded, are the American ones. At Nettuno, 10,950 graves. At Falciani, near Florence, 5,811. Each time I pass in front of it and see that lake of crosses, I shiver with grief and gratitude.) There was also a National Liberation Front, in Italy. A Resistance that the Allies supplied with weapons and ammunition. As in spite of my tender age (14), I was involved in the matter, I remember well the American plane that, braving anti-aircraft fire, parachuted those supplies to Tuscany. To be exact, onto Mount Giovi where one night they air-dropped commandos with the task of activating a short-wave network named Radio Cora. Ten smiling Americans who spoke very good Italian and who three months later were captured by the SS, tortured, and executed with a Florentine partisan girl: Anna Maria Enriquez-Agnoletti.

Thus, the dilemma remains.It remains for the reasons I will try to state. And the first one is that, contrary to the pacifists who never yell against Saddam Hussein or Osama bin Laden and only yell against George W. Bush and Tony Blair, (but in their Rome march they also yelled against me and raised posters wishing that I'd blow up with the next shuttle, I'm told), I know war very well. I know what it means to live in terror, to run under air strikes and cannonades, to see people killed and houses destroyed, to starve and dream of a piece of bread, to miss even a glass of drinking water. And (which is worse) to be or to feel responsible for someone else's death. I know it because I belong to the Second World War generation and because, as a member of the Resistance, I was myself a soldier. I also know it because for a good deal of my life I have been a war correspondent. Beginning with Vietnam, I have experienced horrors that those who see war only through TV or the movies where blood is tomato ketchup don't even imagine. As a consequence, I hate it as the pacifists in bad or good faith never will. I loathe it. Every book I have written overflows with that loathing, and I cannot bear the sight of guns. At the same time, however, I don't accept the principle, or should I say the slogan, that "All wars are unjust, illegitimate." The war against Hitler and Mussolini and Hirohito was just, was legitimate. The Risorgimento wars that my ancestors fought against the invaders of Italy were just, were legitimate. And so was the war of independence that Americans fought against Britain. So are the wars (or revolutions) which happen to regain dignity, freedom. I do not believe in vile acquittals, phony appeasements, easy forgiveness. Even less, in the exploitation or the blackmail of the word Peace. When peace stands for surrender, fear, loss of dignity and freedom, it is no longer peace. It's suicide.The second reason is that this war should not happen now. If just as I wish, legitimate as I hope, it should have happened one year ago. That is, when the ruins of the Towers were still smoking and the whole civilized world felt American. Had it happened then, the pacifists who never yell against Saddam or bin Laden would not today fill the squares to anathematize the United States. Hollywood stars would not play the role of Messiahs, and ambiguous Turkey would not cynically deny passage to the Marines who have to reach the Northern front. Despite the Europeans who added their voice to the voice of the Palestinians howling "Americans-got-it-good," one year ago nobody questioned that another Pearl Harbor had been inflicted on the U.S. and that the U.S. had all the right to respond. As a matter of fact, it should have happened before. I mean when Bill Clinton was president, and small Pearl Harbors were bursting abroad. In Somalia, in Kenya, in Yemen. As I shall never tire of repeating, we did not need September 11 to see that the cancer was there. September 11 was the excruciating confirmation of a reality which had been burning for decades, the indisputable diagnosis of a doctor who waves an X-ray and brutally snaps: "My dear Sir, you have cancer." Had Mr. Clinton spent less time with voluptuous girls, had he made smarter use of the Oval Office, maybe September 11 would not have occurred. And, needless to say, even less would it have occurred if the first George Bush had removed Saddam with the Gulf War. For Christ's sake, in 1991 the Iraqi army deflated like a pricked balloon. It disintegrated so quickly, so easily, that even I captured four of its soldiers. I was behind a dune in the Saudi desert, all alone. Four skeletal creatures in ragged uniforms came toward me with arms raised, and whispered: "Bush, Bush." Meaning: "Please take me prisoner. I am so thirsty, so hungry." So I took them prisoner. I delivered them to the Marine in charge, and instead of congratulating me he grumbled: "Dammit! Some more?!?" Yet the Americans did not get to Baghdad, did not remove Saddam. And, to thank them, Saddam tried to kill their president. The same president who had left him in power. In fact, at times I wonder if this war isn't also a long-awaited retaliation, a filial revenge, a promise made by the son to the father. Like in a Shakespearean tragedy. Better, a Greek one.The third reason is the wrong way in which the promise has materialized. Let's admit it: from September 11 until last summer, all the stress was put on bin Laden, on al Qaeda, on Afghanistan. Saddam and Iraq were practically ignored. Only when it became clear that bin Laden was in good health, that the solemn commitment to take him dead or alive had failed, were we reminded that Saddam existed too. That he was not a gentle soul, that he cut the tongues and ears of his adversaries, that he killed children in front of their parents, that he decapitated women then displayed their heads in the streets, that he kept his prisoners in cells as small as coffins, that he made his biological or chemical experiments on them too. That he had connections with al Qaeda and supported terrorism, that he rewarded the families of Palestinian kamikazes at the rate of $25,000 each. That he had never disarmed, never given up his arsenal of deadly weapons, thus the U.N. should send back the inspectors, and let's be serious: if seventy years ago the ineffective League of Nations had sent its inspectors to Germany, do you think that Hitler would have shown them Peenemünde where Von Braun was manufacturing V2s? Do you think that Hitler would have disclosed the camps of Auschwitz, of Mauthausen, Buchenwald, Dachau? Yet the inspection comedy resumed. With such intensity that the role of prima donna passed from bin Laden to Saddam, and the arrest of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the engineer of September 11, was greeted almost with indifference. A comedy marked by the double games of the inspectors and the conflicting strategies of Mr. Bush who on the one hand asked the Security Council for permission to use force and on the other sent his troops to the front. In less than two months, a quarter of a million troops. With the British and Australians, 310,000. And all this without realizing that his enemies (but I should say the enemies of the West) are not only in Baghdad.

They are also in Europe. They are in Paris where the mellifluous Jacques Chirac does not give a damn for peace but plans to satisfy his vanity with the Nobel Peace Prize. Where there is no wish to remove Saddam Hussein because Saddam Hussein means the oil that the French companies pump from Iraqi wells. And where (forgetting a little flaw named Petain) France chases its Napoleonic desire to dominate the European Union, to establish its hegemony over it. They are in Berlin, where the party of the mediocre Gerhard Schröder won the elections by comparing Mr. Bush to Hitler, where American flags are soiled with the swastika, and where, in the dream of playing the masters again, Germans go arm-in-arm with the French. They are in Rome where the communists left by the door and re-entered through the window like the birds of the Hitchcock movie. And where, pestering the world with his ecumenism, his pietism, his Thirdworldism, Pope Wojtyla receives Tariq Aziz as a dove or a martyr who is about to be eaten by lions. (Then he sends him to Assisi where the friars escort him to the tomb of St. Francis.) In the other European countries, it is more or less the same. In Europe your enemies are everywhere, Mr. Bush. What you quietly call "differences of opinion" are in reality pure hate. Because in Europe pacifism is synonymous with anti-Americanism, sir, and accompanied by the most sinister revival of anti-Semitism the anti-Americanism triumphs as much as in the Islamic world. Haven't your ambassadors informed you? Europe is no longer Europe. It is a province of Islam, as Spain and Portugal were at the time of the Moors. It hosts almost 16 million Muslim immigrants and teems with mullahs, imams, mosques, burqas, chadors. It lodges thousands of Islamic terrorists whom governments don't know how to identify and control. People are afraid, and in waving the flag of pacifism--pacifism synonymous with anti-Americanism--they feel protected.Besides, Europe does not care for the 221,484 Americans who died for her in the Second World War. Rather than gratitude, their cemeteries give rise to resentment. As a consequence, in Europe nobody will back this war. Not even nations which are officially allied with the U.S., not even the prime ministers who call you "My friend George." (Like Silvio Berlusconi.) In Europe you only have one friend, one ally, sir: Tony Blair. But Mr. Blair too leads a country which is invaded by the Moors. A country that hides that resentment. Even his party opposes him, and by the way: I owe you an apology, Mr. Blair. In my book "The Rage and the Pride," I was unfair to you. Because I wrote that you would not persevere with your guts, that you would drop them as soon as it would no longer serve your political interests. With impeccable coherence, instead, you are sacrificing those interests to your convictions. Indeed, I apologize. I also withdraw the phrase I used to comment on your excess of courtesy toward Islamic culture: "If our culture has the same value as the one that imposes the burqa, why do you spend your summers in my Tuscany and not in Saudi Arabia?" Now I say: "My Tuscany is your Tuscany, sir. My home is your home."The final reason for my dilemma is the definition that Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair and their advisors give of this war: "A Liberation war. A humanitarian war to bring freedom and democracy to Iraq." Oh, no. Humanitarianism has nothing to do with wars. All wars, even just ones, are death and destruction and atrocities and tears. And this is not a liberation war, a war like the Second World War. (By the way: neither is it an "oil war," as the pacifists who never yell against Saddam or bin Laden maintain in their rallies. Americans do not need Iraqi oil.) It is a political war. A war made in cold blood to respond to the Holy War that the enemies of the West declared upon the West on September 11. It is also a prophylactic war. A vaccine, a surgery that hits Saddam because, (Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair believe), among the various focuses of cancer Saddam is the most obvious and dangerous one. Moreover, the obstacle that once removed will permit them to redesign the map of the Middle East as the British and the French did after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. To redesign it and to spread a Pax Romana, pardon, a Pax Americana, in which everybody will prosper through freedom and democracy. Again, no. Freedom cannot be a gift. And democracy cannot be imposed with bombs, with occupation armies. As my father said when he asked the anti-fascists to join the Resistance, and as today I say to those who honestly rely on the Pax Americana, people must conquer freedom by themselves. Democracy must come from their will, and in both cases a country must know what they consist of. In Europe the Second World War was a liberation war not because it brought novelties called freedom and democracy but because it re-established them. Because Europeans knew what they consisted of. The Japanese did not: it is true. In Japan, those two treasures were somehow a gift, a refund for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But Japan had already started its process of modernization, and did not belong to the Islamic world. As I write in my book when I call bin Laden the tip of the iceberg and I define the iceberg as a mountain that has not moved for 1,400 years, that for 1,400 years has not changed, that has not emerged from its blindness, freedom and democracy are totally unrelated to the ideological texture of Islam. To the tyranny of theocratic states. So their people refuse them, and even more they want to erase ours.Upheld by their stubborn optimism, the same optimism for which at the Alamo they fought so well and all died slaughtered by Santa Anna, Americans think that in Baghdad they will be welcomed as they were in Rome and Florence and Paris. "They'll cheer us, throw us flowers." Maybe. In Baghdad anything can happen. But after that? Nearly two-thirds of the Iraqis are Shiites who have always dreamed of establishing an Islamic Republic of Iraq, and the Soviets too were once cheered in Kabul. They too imposed their peace. They even succeeded in convincing women to take off their burqa, remember? After a while, though, they had to leave. And the Taliban came. Thus, I ask: what if instead of learning freedom Iraq becomes a second Talibani Afghanistan? What if instead of becoming democratized by the Pax Americana the whole Middle East blows up and the cancer multiplies? As a proud defender of the West's civilization, without reservations I should join Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair in the new Alamo. Without reluctance I should fight and die with them. And this is the only thing about which I have no doubts at all.

Oriana Fallaci is the author of "The Rage and the Pride" (Rizzoli International, 2002), available from the OpinionJournal bookstore. Copyright © 2003 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial ... =110003191

Posted: 2003-03-16 01:10am
by Kuja
Had Mr. Clinton spent less time with voluptuous girls, had he made smarter use of the Oval Office, maybe September 11 would not have occurred.
Reminds me of a certain protestor. He had a sign saying: "If Osama was a peice of ass, Clinton would have nailed him."

Posted: 2003-03-16 01:13am
by HemlockGrey
Fascinating rhetoric.

Posted: 2003-03-16 01:21am
by Joe
Great read.

Posted: 2003-03-16 01:22am
by Darth Wong
It's a very long-winded way of beating the "Iraq = Nazi Germany" drum, isn't it? Will this person justify that equation at some point? Or do we have to wait for the next long-winded article?

Posted: 2003-03-16 01:26am
by The Duchess of Zeon
Darth Wong wrote:It's a very long-winded way of beating the "Iraq = Nazi Germany" drum, isn't it? Will this person justify that equation at some point? Or do we have to wait for the next long-winded article?
Well, it's the personal opinion of a WWII-era resistance fighter who's been in combat and has also actually took the surrender of Iraqi troops, if not intentionally. So with the proviso that it is merely a rantlike personal opinion, it is one from a person who's been through similiar situations and has at least a modicum of understanding about the situation on the ground. Therefore I thought it worthwhile to post.

Posted: 2003-03-16 01:26am
by Next of Kin
They are in Paris where the mellifluous Jacques Chirac does not give a damn for peace but plans to satisfy his vanity with the Nobel Peace Prize. Where there is no wish to remove Saddam Hussein because Saddam Hussein means the oil that the French companies pump from Iraqi wells.
Yes and we all know that Bush and Co. did not have oil in mind when they planned to invade and topple the Iraqi government. :roll: Those evil Frenchman! (So they want the U.S. spoils of war too, eh?)

Posted: 2003-03-16 01:31am
by Crown
Europe is no longer Europe. It is a province of Islam, as Spain and Portugal were at the time of the Moors. It hosts almost 16 million Muslim immigrants and teems with mullahs, imams, mosques, burqas, chadors.
This was said right after anti-semetism is starting up again in Europe as well as anti-Americanism. :roll:

Posted: 2003-03-16 01:44am
by The Duchess of Zeon
Crown wrote:
Europe is no longer Europe. It is a province of Islam, as Spain and Portugal were at the time of the Moors. It hosts almost 16 million Muslim immigrants and teems with mullahs, imams, mosques, burqas, chadors.
This was said right after anti-semetism is starting up again in Europe as well as anti-Americanism. :roll:
Why should the burqa or the chador still cover Muslim women in theoretically "free" countries like the European "democracies"? What is happening to Europe that they entreat with these communities and allow them to continue their oppression within their own borders?

In France it is not even safe in the suburbs of Paris because the combination of racism against the immigrants, and toleration for maintainence of their own lifestyle - which encourages poverty when clashing with the totally different organization of western society - along with the awesome force of political correctness, preventing any critique of the mistakes made by these groups, lets them get away with things like robbery in broad daylight on a scale which in the USA would be called anarchy. This completely ignores the trophy gang-rapes that occur in France and other European countries, these barbarians attacking women since they are merely, of course "Frankish Barbarians" in their own eyes - such an irony! - who do not cover their hair with veils and thus are open to such attacks.

They do not realize that the definition of barbarian changes as society advances and their's has been left behind in barbaric mire with the inevitable progress of human organization. Now their primitive organization clashes with our's, and unless we shake off our lassitude and make war with all our fury we shall be overcome by the religious spirit of the barbarian. This is a war for the fate of the whole of western civilization.

Posted: 2003-03-16 02:02am
by Crown
The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Why should the burqa or the chador still cover Muslim women in theoretically "free" countries like the European "democracies"? What is happening to Europe that they entreat with these communities and allow them to continue their oppression within their own borders?


Because the women choose to wear them, and they are free of religious persecution. It's because Europe is a free democratic establishement that allows women to wear them. What are you deficient?
In France it is not even safe in the suburbs of Paris because the combination of racism against the immigrants, and toleration for maintainence of their own lifestyle - which encourages poverty when clashing with the totally different organization of western society - along with the awesome force of political correctness, preventing any critique of the mistakes made by these groups, lets them get away with things like robbery in broad daylight on a scale which in the USA would be called anarchy. This completely ignores the trophy gang-rapes that occur in France and other European countries, these barbarians attacking women since they are merely, of course "Frankish Barbarians" in their own eyes - such an irony! - who do not cover their hair with veils and thus are open to such attacks.
And the people who commit these acts are tried and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. So too are those that go around and try to grab the veils off the women that choose to wear them. The point is the law of the state is upheld equally and un-biased.
They do not realize that the definition of barbarian changes as society advances and their's has been left behind in barbaric mire with the inevitable progress of human organization. Now their primitive organization clashes with our's, and unless we shake off our lassitude and make war with all our fury we shall be overcome by the religious spirit of the barbarian. This is a war for the fate of the whole of western civilization.
Bullshit. Personal freedom is achieved through a process of reform, not antagonation. The next generation becomes gradually more reformed than the previous one, when living in a free choice society. Speaking as someone who immagrated this is my personal experience. Speaking as someone who has friends which are hardcore Jew, Muslim and Christian.

P.S. In the same sentence the author also attack Europe as no longer being Europe for allowing Mosques. Noticed you didn't respond to that.

Posted: 2003-03-16 02:11am
by Joe
P.S. In the same sentence the author also attack Europe as no longer being Europe for allowing Mosques. Noticed you didn't respond to that.
It would be difficult to respond to this, given that the author of the piece in question never said such a thing.

Posted: 2003-03-16 02:13am
by MKSheppard
Darth Wong wrote:It's a very long-winded way of beating the "Iraq = Nazi Germany" drum, isn't it? Will this person justify that equation at some point? Or do we have to wait for the next long-winded article?
I fell asleep reading it. :?

Posted: 2003-03-16 02:15am
by Crown
Durran Korr wrote:
P.S. In the same sentence the author also attack Europe as no longer being Europe for allowing Mosques. Noticed you didn't respond to that.
It would be difficult to respond to this, given that the author of the piece in question never said such a thing.
The Author of the aritcle wrote:Europe is no longer Europe. It is a province of Islam, as Spain and Portugal were at the time of the Moors. It hosts almost 16 million Muslim immigrants and teems with mullahs, imams, mosques, burqas, chadors.
Emphasis added. :roll:

Posted: 2003-03-16 02:20am
by Joe
She said that Europe is no longer Europe on the basis of the fact that Islam, which has traditionally not held a great deal of power in Western Europe, has grown to be quite powerful and influential. She didn't say that the mere presence of Islam in Europe was the culprit.

Posted: 2003-03-16 02:23am
by Darth Wong
Durran Korr wrote:She said that Europe is no longer Europe on the basis of the fact that Islam, which has traditionally not held a great deal of power in Western Europe, has grown to be quite powerful and influential. She didn't say that the mere presence of Islam in Europe was the culprit.
I didn't know you could split hairs so finely.

Posted: 2003-03-16 02:29am
by Joe
Splitting hairs?

The author of this piece is not suggesting that European countries oust Islam from their borders in order to be Europe again, she is just pointing out how powerful the influence of it is. I don't think differentiating between these two things is splitting hairs, but by all means feel free to disagree.

Posted: 2003-03-16 02:32am
by Darth Wong
Durran Korr wrote:Splitting hairs?

The author of this piece is not suggesting that European countries oust Islam from their borders in order to be Europe again, she is just pointing out how powerful the influence of it is. I don't think differentiating between these two things is splitting hairs, but by all means feel free to disagree.
Did the author point to any precedents indicating that personal freedoms were being abridged as a result of Islam? Education systems being forced to change their teaching curriculum as a result of Islam? Islamic laws being passed? No? The author only pointed out that there's lots of Muslims living in Europe?

Then there is no substantial distinction. The author effectively says that Europe is no longer Europe for allowing 16 million Muslims to live and worship within its borders.

Posted: 2003-03-16 02:35am
by The Duchess of Zeon
Darth Wong wrote: Did the author point to any precedents indicating that personal freedoms were being abridged as a result of Islam? Education systems being forced to change their teaching curriculum as a result of Islam? Islamic laws being passed? No? The author only pointed out that there's lots of Muslims living in Europe?

Then there is no substantial distinction. The author effectively says that Europe is no longer Europe for allowing 16 million Muslims to live and worship within its borders.
This article, I think, explains what she's talking about:

http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_4_t ... rians.html

- The Barbarians at the Gates of Paris, by Theodore Dalrymple.

Posted: 2003-03-16 02:36am
by Joe
She did mention rising anti-Semitism in certain regions of Europe just before the quote in question. I think she may have been trying to connect this with the rise of Islam.

Which is a perfectly reasonable connection, of course. Anti-semitism is marginal these days in just about every society on earth, except for ones dominated by Islam.

Posted: 2003-03-16 02:38am
by Stormbringer
Darth Wong wrote:Did the author point to any precedents indicating that personal freedoms were being abridged as a result of Islam? Education systems being forced to change their teaching curriculum as a result of Islam? Islamic laws being passed? No? The author only pointed out that there's lots of Muslims living in Europe?

Then there is no substantial distinction. The author effectively says that Europe is no longer Europe for allowing 16 million Muslims to live and worship within its borders.
Except those Muslims have, in many cases, imported extremist Islam. Even the best of them don't seem interested in assimilating into the culture instead standing apart. At worst you, as Marina said, behaviour that would be entirely at home in Saudi Arabia or the taliban's Afgahnistan.

Posted: 2003-03-16 02:42am
by Darth Wong
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:This article, I think, explains what she's talking about:

http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_4_t ... rians.html

- The Barbarians at the Gates of Paris, by Theodore Dalrymple.
Let me get this straight: by the author's estimate, a third of the residents in these high-crime immigrant ghettos around Paris are Muslim. And this justifies the assumption that Europe has fallen under the sway of radical Islam ... how?

The anti-Semitism angle is equally absurd; Europe has a rich history of anti-Semitism all on its own. And the notion that some of the immigrants brought along extremist beliefs doesn't change anything; we have the same problem in America but no one is screaming that America is no longer America because of massive Islamic influence.

Posted: 2003-03-16 02:45am
by Joe
Darth Wong wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:This article, I think, explains what she's talking about:

http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_4_t ... rians.html

- The Barbarians at the Gates of Paris, by Theodore Dalrymple.
Let me get this straight: by the author's estimate, a third of the residents in these high-crime immigrant ghettos around Paris are Muslim. And this justifies the assumption that Europe has fallen under the sway of radical Islam ... how?

The anti-Semitism angle is equally absurd; Europe has a rich history of anti-Semitism all on its own. And the notion that some of the immigrants brought along extremist beliefs doesn't change anything; we have the same problem in America but no one is screaming that America is no longer America because of massive Islamic influence.
Because America has nowhere near the degree of Islamic influence that you will find in certain European countries.

Posted: 2003-03-16 02:47am
by kojikun
Europe is no longer europe because the invading waves of christians from jerusalem have foisted their religion upon millions of italians and greeks and french and germans and british! it is the middle eastern bastards who worship in these churches of theirs that have taken of europe!!!

Duchess, grow up you stupid twat. :roll:

Posted: 2003-03-16 02:51am
by The Duchess of Zeon
kojikun wrote:Europe is no longer europe because the invading waves of christians from jerusalem have foisted their religion upon millions of italians and greeks and french and germans and british! it is the middle eastern bastards who worship in these churches of theirs that have taken of europe!!!

Duchess, grow up you stupid twat. :roll:
It's about culture, not religion. That's why the chador and the burqa are disturbing signs. They're clothing of repression. Just like the Swastika is banned in Germany, so should be the chador and the burqa - They're all symbols of the same sort of repressive hate, of cultures that engage in a sort of brutality which is intolerable to us. Those women may wear it voluntarily but only because they are mired in a culture of oppression. Germany willingly executed Hitler's slaughter, for that matter - Some Jews served in the Wehrmacht, never getting discovered and yet never doing anything, the entire time.

The culture of the Mid-East is a 7th century culture, kept that way thanks to the Sheriat Law. If Islam wants to survive in the modern world it must abandon the Sheriat Law. Otherwise Islam and the modern world will fight and either Islam will win and destroy the modern world or else we'll win and rip the Sheriat basis for this oppressive culture out of Islam.

Posted: 2003-03-16 02:53am
by The Duchess of Zeon
Darth Wong wrote: Let me get this straight: by the author's estimate, a third of the residents in these high-crime immigrant ghettos around Paris are Muslim. And this justifies the assumption that Europe has fallen under the sway of radical Islam ... how?

The anti-Semitism angle is equally absurd; Europe has a rich history of anti-Semitism all on its own. And the notion that some of the immigrants brought along extremist beliefs doesn't change anything; we have the same problem in America but no one is screaming that America is no longer America because of massive Islamic influence.
A minority can wield disproportionate influence, which it does in this case by the "white guilt" of the ex-colonialist European countries. It's hardly around Paris alone - That's just the most dramatic example, I think. I'd also contend that Islamic anti-Jewish feelings inflame the same anti-Jewish feelings that are rooted into the rest of Europe, especially among the poor in those ghettos who are not Muslim but are in close contact with them.