Age appropriate literature?

OT: anything goes!

Moderator: Edi

Post Reply
User avatar
Ahriman238
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4854
Joined: 2011-04-22 11:04pm
Location: Ocularis Terribus.

Age appropriate literature?

Post by Ahriman238 »

So I saw an article just now on whether or not it's okay to let your kids read the Hunger Games books.
If "Hunger Games" fever is striking in your house these days, you're not alone. "Catching Fire," the second filmed entry adapted from the wildly-successful book trilogy is about to hit theaters, and with over 36 million copies of the books sold, the phenomenon is inescapable. But what's a parent to do if their child wants a bite at "The Hunger Games" books — or any of the dark, disturbing young adult fiction now crowding bookshelves?

Experts are clear: Now that YA fiction has taken such a dark, often violent turn, parents can't turn a blind eye. “Content is more frightening and gory than ever, and the bar keeps getting set higher and higher,” says Dr. Fran Walfish, a child and family psychotherapist and author of “The Self-Aware Parent.” “Teenagers love that thrill.”

“It’s a cashing in on the ‘Potter Effect,’” says G. P. Taylor, author of 15 YA novels, including the “Vampire Labyrinth” and “Mariah Mundi” series. “Publishers are saying to authors, ‘Write a kids’ book!’ So they do, and it ends up being an adult book with child characters.”

The trend has led to a wide field of books that, despite being labeled “young adult” fiction, are not appropriate for many young readers. “When you’re young, your impressions of the world are still being formed — and how you think about relationships can be affected by what you read,” says Dr. Claire McCarthy, a pediatrician and medical communications editor at Boston Children’s Hospital.

That’s why it’s no longer sufficient to assume that if your child is reading, they’re ready for the material they’ve picked up. Mother of three and media specialist in the Maryland public school system Alexis Gerard says one of her daughters read “Hunger Games” as a 5th grader; another read it while in 8th grade, and her husband read it aloud to their son when he was a 5th grader. In the meantime, she read the books and had “many rich conversations” with both her children and students.

“Giving them the freedom to read what they want is a real gift,” she says. “But just because a child can read something doesn’t mean that they should read it — it’s not so much how old the child is, but maturity. If you are concerned that a book’s themes, contents, language, etc. are out of whack with your family values or may not be appropriate for your child, the best thing you can do is read the book for yourself.”

That said, she added that the “Hunger Games” trilogy does emphasize many “redeeming values,” including perseverance, resourcefulness and friendship, among others.

Mom and musician Gata Negrra, who homeschools her children, read “Hunger Games” with her 13-year-old son and a lively debate ensued. “We both enjoyed it,” she reports, “though we both jokingly agreed that the author had issues.”

“You have to know your individual child,” says Walfish. “Before you allow or offer this material to children, have a straight, open dialogue. Get inside your child’s mind first.”

But trying to keep on top of every new popular YA series is a massive undertaking, which is why some – including author Taylor — suggest a ratings system for YA books might be in order. “It’s only fair to parents to have something like that on the back of the books,” he says. “Does it contain horror? Violence? That helps parents get some insight.”

Other options for parents include exploring websites like Goodreads, Booklist and Common Sense Media, all of which provide suggested ages for YA books, and some include descriptions of content.

“I’m not necessarily one for censorship,” says McCarthy. “But I am one for making sure parents know the themes that are in books, and that they have conversations with kids.”

For Taylor, it’s about parents, authors and publishers doing due diligence. “I have a duty of care,” he says. “I want readers to be thrilled, but not terrified. I want them to read it, but only when it’s right for them.”
And this got me to thinking about censoring your kids' reading material. It wasn't a big thing in my household growing up, we read what we wanted and if the Harlequin romances weren't our thing, it was more because they were boring than because they had sex. Granted, we didn't have a lot of books that were scarring to a kid, I think I was twelve or thirteen before I got into books like Night and On the Beach. So maybe there was a bit of care what books were brought into the house, but once they were there (or in the hands of any relatives, big on sharing us) they were fair game.

I think we came out okay, some might disagree.

The Hunger Games isn't even all that terrible, yes it portrays bloodshed and hardship but that's always been in our stories, heck I remember Beatrix Potter stories where the heroes were always in danger or getting eaten alive. I don't recall anyone thinking they should be censored.
"Any plan which requires the direct intervention of any deity to work can be assumed to be a very poor one."- Newbiespud
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Age appropriate literature?

Post by Simon_Jester »

Hm.

There's one area I think is inadequately discussed, which is the development of cynicism in a child. Classically, children start out very innocent (or at least ignorant of what can go wrong), learn basic facts about the world, and then begin to realize that all is not as nice and pat and simple as it used to appear. Typically this takes them up through some time in college.

In my opinion, it is deeply counterproductive for children to become convinced that their society is permanently, irredeemably corrupt beyond anything mere votes can ever repair, before they are able to vote. It is counterproductive for them to become convinced that all people are selfish liars, before they are capable of engaging in actual business of their own.

For one, these things are not necessarily true; we are misleading our children if we teach them too much facile suspicion, and they risk becoming foolish like the boy here.

For another, they undermine our supplies of social capital- we enter the world more suspicious not only of the real villains in our society, but also of every ordinary person we come across.

Now, this is not the same as being upset about sex or violence or any of the usual alarm bells in literature for adolescents. But I do think it bears thinking on- what is the tone of this book that you're handing to a child; is it consistent with a healthy course of development for them?
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
TheFeniX
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4869
Joined: 2003-06-26 04:24pm
Location: Texas

Re: Age appropriate literature?

Post by TheFeniX »

How are the tones in the Hunger Games any different than those in Animal Farm, Lord of the Flies, 1984 and the plethora of other books I was required to read from the ages of 14-18? Boxer getting shipped off to the glue factory (meat really) wasn't exactly in your face, that was until our teacher made sure we understood exactly what was happening so we couldn't even feign ignorance about it. The ending of 1984 was horrifying in it's.... I don't even know the word, a man so broken as to thank his captors for the bullet they will eventually give him? Really surpassed only by "I have no mouth and I must scream," but I wasn't forced to read that until college (had read it before though, on my high school teacher's recommendation).

Hell, the themes in Shakespeare were chock full of cynicism, violence, and death and people love that shit.

Parents should obviously monitor their kids entertainment intake (it would make CoD multi-player that much more bearable). But I don't see why The Hunger Games should be considered anything all that special. At least not if you read " I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings" as a requirement to pass Freshman English. Let me sum the book up in two words: "Soul Crushing." And it's doesn't have the benefit of being fiction.
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28831
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Age appropriate literature?

Post by Broomstick »

When I was a kid nothing was off limits to read, and I do mean nothing - there were a few times the local library wouldn't let me check something out so my mom got it for me. However, my parents unquestionably monitored what I was reading and they were VERY outspoken about what they did and didn't approve of, and why. I was also tickled when I wound up introducing my mom to things no one ever thought she'd be interested in reading. So... I was allowed to explore the world, but mom and dad were always watching and yes, at times guiding me.

Which is how I think it ought to be.

The world can be a cruel, nasty, hostile, dangerous place and you shouldn't shield children too long.* Sooner or later they will have to grow up and face reality, and it's better to do it gradually, with guidance, than to keep them ignorant.



* Just to be clear, I don't advocate terrifying toddlers - but certainly by the teen years you need to start introducing adult issues to kids.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
HeavensThunderHammer
Redshirt
Posts: 36
Joined: 2009-12-04 06:18pm

Re: Age appropriate literature?

Post by HeavensThunderHammer »

I think this is a good subject. A friend of mine was totally sheltered as a child from TV shows and movies. She was allowed to watch rated G movies only & they didn't have cable TV. So at 18 had zero cultural context for a huge number of things.

But, she was allowed to read whatever she wanted. So she told me some of the stuff she read at like 12 & 13 and I remember being like O.O seriously, that book?! Can't remember the title for the life of me, but I know I wouldn't have been able to read that one.

Now that I have kids and they're into books, I've moderated some of my book collection and sold books that I felt were just too graphic/depressing for a young child to be reading.
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Age appropriate literature?

Post by Simon_Jester »

TheFeniX wrote:How are the tones in the Hunger Games any different than those in Animal Farm, Lord of the Flies, 1984 and the plethora of other books I was required to read from the ages of 14-18?
Not saying they are. And I'm really more thinking about what kids read at 10 or 12.

I suppose I simply have this mental model that first you learn how things are supposed to work, at the age where you are young enough to understand a rule but not to understand gray areas.

Then, as you get into your teens, you learn that it doesn't always work that way, and why. Since a fair amount of "young adult" literature is heavy on the 'doesn't always work that way' angle, it's something I'm conscious of, but it doesn't invalidate any specific work of literature. At most, it means kids should read it at 15 instead of 11.
Broomstick wrote:The world can be a cruel, nasty, hostile, dangerous place and you shouldn't shield children too long.* Sooner or later they will have to grow up and face reality, and it's better to do it gradually, with guidance, than to keep them ignorant.
I agree about this- I guess my observation is that part of the job with "guidance" is to keep track of the themes in a child's literature and respond appropriately. Once the child can understand moral gray areas, these gray areas should be discussed with them, and I guess my issue is simply that I think the child should know what black and white look like before being told that most of the world is shades of gray.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Lord Revan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12235
Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
Location: Zone:classified

Re: Age appropriate literature?

Post by Lord Revan »

there's also the question of balance to consider, if a child sees or reads too much fiction where the world is depicted at best really, really dark grey, they might get a bad view of the world, so you should balance such fiction with stories that have a more positive outlook of the world to show that the world might be mostly shades of grey but it doesn't mean light shades of grey or even outright white doesn't exist.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
Crake
Redshirt
Posts: 7
Joined: 2013-11-16 02:01am

Re: Age appropriate literature?

Post by Crake »

There was quite literally no censorship of literature in my household growing up. I could have walked in with the then-equivalent of 50 Shades and my parents wouldn't have batted an eye. I think it was a combination of my parents trusting my brother and I (we didn't get in trouble/got good grades), and the fact that they themselves almost never read for pleasure, and so were just clueless. Not only is the Hunger Games trilogy no worse than many of the required readings we had in school, it is certainly no worse than much of what I personally began reading for pleasure as early as 5th/6th grade...Stephen King, Tom Clancy, etc. As I still have no children I can't say for sure how I'd be, but unless I notice that they're reading something like "The Idiot's Guide to Killing Your Parents and Getting Away With It", I think I'd generally be glad they'd taken an interest in literature.
User avatar
General Zod
Never Shuts Up
Posts: 29211
Joined: 2003-11-18 03:08pm
Location: The Clearance Rack
Contact:

Re: Age appropriate literature?

Post by General Zod »

Would this article's writer say that it's just fine for children to read the Bible, I wonder? I like to use that as a bullshit litmus test. If the Bible is fine but The Hunger Games is not because "violence" your priorities are probably a bit fucked.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
User avatar
TheFeniX
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4869
Joined: 2003-06-26 04:24pm
Location: Texas

Re: Age appropriate literature?

Post by TheFeniX »

Simon_Jester wrote:Not saying they are. And I'm really more thinking about what kids read at 10 or 12.

I suppose I simply have this mental model that first you learn how things are supposed to work, at the age where you are young enough to understand a rule but not to understand gray areas.
Who Framed Roger Rabbit came out when I was 6. I knew I was supposed to be sad that Eddie's brother died, but as someone who had never experienced any actual loss at that age, it didn't affect me on near the level it should have.

"Didn't you used to be Eddie Valient? Or did you change your name to Jack Daniel's?" I didn't get that reference for years because I didn't know the brand, but I also couldn't make the reference that Eddie was an alcoholic because I had never dealt with alcoholism, nor that his entire life was put on hold from the death of his brother. What did affect me was Lloyd's performance all around as a creepy murderer, because he's (like you talked about) a pretty black and white character.

Contrast to my best friend back then who grew up with alcohol abuse as part of his daily life. He understood it immediately and even trying to explain it to me, it didn't make sense that people could abuse alcohol. My parents drank "all the time" (note: actually very rarely) and they were just dandy.
Then, as you get into your teens, you learn that it doesn't always work that way, and why. Since a fair amount of "young adult" literature is heavy on the 'doesn't always work that way' angle, it's something I'm conscious of, but it doesn't invalidate any specific work of literature. At most, it means kids should read it at 15 instead of 11.
I've found if kids are too young or don't have the correct references from actual experience, shit just flies over their head. They haven't reached an age where they can make references based on information alone, relying solely on experience they either have or don't. So, unless your work is glorifying murder, rape, torture (which sadly a lot of mainstream stuff does), then it's not going to really impact them.

But even though kids are playing CoD at an age where Ninja Turtles should still be their goto, there doesn't seem to be a link (any that I've read about) that makes these kids more violent or cynical.
AniThyng
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2775
Joined: 2003-09-08 12:47pm
Location: Took an arrow in the knee.
Contact:

Re: Age appropriate literature?

Post by AniThyng »

But even though kids are playing CoD at an age where Ninja Turtles should still be their goto, there doesn't seem to be a link (any that I've read about) that makes these kids more violent or cynical.
This seems to contradict the part about "works that glorify murder"...

For what it is worth, I read Clavel's Noble House at 11 and didn;t really grasp a lot of the themes until I reread it again 10 years later. I did use to think it was odd that we made such a big deal about banning sex and violence when there was all this texual sex and violence in my fantasy/sci-fi books..(e.g. Chung Kuo, Eon...etc)
I do know how to spell
AniThyng is merely the name I gave to what became my favourite Baldur's Gate II mage character :P
User avatar
TheFeniX
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4869
Joined: 2003-06-26 04:24pm
Location: Texas

Re: Age appropriate literature?

Post by TheFeniX »

AniThyng wrote:This seems to contradict the part about "works that glorify murder"...
You're right. Even though I personally would keep my kid away from disturbingly violent media, that would make me a huge hypocrite. I grew up watching Alien, Total Recall, and other extremely over-the-top gore-fests, read Shadowrun, D&D novels, as well as many other more acceptable "horrific" writing such as I listed earlier. So did millions of other kids and there's still not been found any correlation between that and aggression or general cynicism.
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Age appropriate literature?

Post by Simon_Jester »

TheFeniX wrote:But even though kids are playing CoD at an age where Ninja Turtles should still be their goto, there doesn't seem to be a link (any that I've read about) that makes these kids more violent or cynical.
Hm.

Well, I'm not saying I have a very strong case here. But such as it is-

It's not about how bloody the fiction is, I suppose. It's more about how idealistic/realistic/nihilistic it is. About what it presents as "normal," that which decent people are supposed to want.

This sort of thing is why I do not consider Warhammer 40k suitable for anyone too young to fully understand why it's a horror setting. It's not the blood, it's that the entire setting is grim darkness... but contains enough explosions that an immature mind may think it is "cool," rather than being a darkly humorous and/or tragic commentary on total war taken to its illogical extreme.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
TK-984
Redshirt
Posts: 42
Joined: 2008-07-28 12:24pm

Re: Age appropriate literature?

Post by TK-984 »

I think the real question would be when would you let your kids begin reading Nietzcshe's Thus Spoke Zarathustra, Sartre's Nausea, Camus' The Stranger, Joyce's Ulysses, Becket's Molloy, or Foucault's The History of Sexuality. The Hunger Games is fluff.

It all comes down to the parents and what socio-economic conditions they are privy to. I doubt a black mother in Harlem is concerned with the question.
AniThyng
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2775
Joined: 2003-09-08 12:47pm
Location: Took an arrow in the knee.
Contact:

Re: Age appropriate literature?

Post by AniThyng »

Simon_Jester wrote:
TheFeniX wrote:But even though kids are playing CoD at an age where Ninja Turtles should still be their goto, there doesn't seem to be a link (any that I've read about) that makes these kids more violent or cynical.
Hm.

Well, I'm not saying I have a very strong case here. But such as it is-

It's not about how bloody the fiction is, I suppose. It's more about how idealistic/realistic/nihilistic it is. About what it presents as "normal," that which decent people are supposed to want.

This sort of thing is why I do not consider Warhammer 40k suitable for anyone too young to fully understand why it's a horror setting. It's not the blood, it's that the entire setting is grim darkness... but contains enough explosions that an immature mind may think it is "cool," rather than being a darkly humorous and/or tragic commentary on total war taken to its illogical extreme.
I am reminded of a conversation we might have had before on the differences between this kind of raw violence and things like say, sexism - no one is likely to ever need to or be in a position to actually conduct disgusting acts of violence, but everyday sexism is precisely that - everyday.

Then you have things like rape - i mean clearly we consider fictional depictions or implications of rape to be more dastardly than merely murdering someone.
I do know how to spell
AniThyng is merely the name I gave to what became my favourite Baldur's Gate II mage character :P
User avatar
Omeros
Youngling
Posts: 71
Joined: 2005-09-06 12:16pm
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Re: Age appropriate literature?

Post by Omeros »

I think a big factor is how violent or graphic material is presented. I was reading horror story compilations when I was 11 years old and James Bond novels by the time I was 14 (with the attendant violence, sex and general ludicrousness) but I didn't grow up to be sociopathic or anything. Everything I read was clearly fictional so I didn't read about (say) Bond dropping a villain out of a helicopter or whatever and think to myself 'Cool! I must try that sometime,' I just saw it all as essentially a fantasy, like the Universal horror movies I was watching by the time I was about 10 years old.

If I had read material that tried to justify such stuff, along the lines of The Turner Diaries as an example, it might have made more of a negative impression on me.
Post Reply