StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Assume you have a character who has lived from the 1850s or so and uses pistols. . . .
Periodically, they replace them with new and better firearms, what weapons would they use through time?

Were it me, I'd probably start with a Colt 1848 Dragoon until 1873 or so when the Single Action Army is introduced. I'd probably stay with this for quite some time. When the 1911 comes out, I'd see it as a toy, not a real pistol. As such, it would take some time before I'd even consider trying one. Given its performance in WWII, I might be persuaded to test one out. That would be my sidearm for the next 40 years or so. Maybe in the early 00's I'd try out some of the new breed of polymer grip pistols, but I would probably stick with my trusty 1911 - it has served me well for over 50 years at this point. And, of course, I still have the 1848 and 1873 hanging on the wall. Seeing that the change to the 1911 worked out well, I might try another polymer in 2011. Maybe a Glock, but definitely chambered in .45 caliber. Once I see how well they perform, I might be persuaded to hang up the 1911, but then again, maybe not.

What is that character using the pistol for? It makes quite some difference if I'm target shooting, shooting people, shooting people in body armour, shooting really big animals...

Indeed. The thing that is likely to drive him to change his weapon of choice is not going to be aesthetics or sentimentality but utility. Firstly we have as Batman said the choice of targets. Secondly and perhaps even more important we have the fact that pistols go out of production. And no matter what he picks there will come a time where the munitions and spare parts become difficult or impossible to come by. So it is unlikely that he will hang on to a 100 year old relic and seriously consider using it in action.

I tend to enjoy writing supernatural fiction . . . .There are real vampires, werewolves, etc in such a storyline.
Have a germ of an idea that may or may not go anywhere.
I am assuming that the story will be set in the United States although can import if there is a better weapon at least in later years.
Initially, would likely be something US made.

One item I am wonder is when there would be good double action revolvers available and if there are any decent and powerful automatics before the 1911

Depends in no small part on what works on your undead and the mechanism it does works on. if 'more x=more damage' you'd naturally want larger calibre bullets, probably to the point where you'd go custom-designed anyway (Hellboy comes to mind). If it's a chain reaction 'any amount of x=kill' effect you might get away with ordinary calibre bullets made of/filled with whatever it is you decided would work.

I want to avoid "super weapons" for the most part but weapons which are available.
Both heavy rounds and lots of rounds can be effective
You want a round with some "oomph" to it not a .32 for example

With undead (at least from the fiction I know) the kinetic impact of the bullet is largely if not completely irrelevant, it's either 'magic material=instakill' or 'Magic material the more the merrier' which means either anything of any calibre that can to be made with those materials does the job or you want the biggest bullets you can make work.

Batman wrote: probably to the point where you'd go custom-designed anyway

Custom designed would attract more attention than a mass produced pistol. Plus it would be more expensive. Which means more questions for Kitsune:

- How much does he care about not attracting attention ?
- How much money does he have ?

So far we're talking about a single individual. I seriously doubt that individual getting a single handgun custom designed every other leap year or so is going to be all that visible.

One item I am looking at is the first powerful double action revolver. . . .The .41 LC is a bit anemic

Edit: I want to thourily explore existing pistols before going to custom weapons

Torben wrote:Were it me, I'd probably start with a Colt 1848 Dragoon until 1873 or so when the Single Action Army is introduced. I'd probably stay with this for quite some time. When the 1911 comes out, I'd see it as a toy, not a real pistol.

Why? It performed better in reliability tests than the revolvers it was replacing. Better capacity, lighter, easier to reload and fire, and more reliable The 1911 is basically it until the Browning Hi-Power comes long.

Mind, you could make the argument that you'd stick to a revolver if you have a lever-action in the same caliber, which was a common thing in the late 19th Century...but really, the 1911 is the pinnacle of martial sidearms until the Browning HP comes out.

I would expect that anyone using weapons on a regular basis for 60+ years would probably be very conservative in switching from tried-and-true weaponry to the newest gear. If nothing else, an immortal would probably get very stuck in their ways.

Custom weapons have the downside of being more difficult to get repaired, unless the character is a gunsmith and basically builds and repairs it himself. I would imagine there's the risk of getting a low-reliability weapon as well. Still, I can see someone who hunts supernaturals for decades to centuries developing an armory of custom gear over time-- grenades, flashbangs, holy water supersoakers or paintball guns, flamethrowers, custom shotgun ammo, etc.

In addition, why is the character choosing pistols as their primary weapon? Is concealment the only factor? If he's ever in a region where carrying a longarm in public is acceptable, expect him to do so. As the saying goes, a pistol is only good to get a shotgun is only good to get a long gun. Range and accuracy of longarms relegate pistols to a back-up and CQC weapon only, and with the advent of modern magazine-fed carbines/assault rifles/shotguns, even then longarms are superior.

A brand new M1911 would have been quite an expensive investment for a private citizen immediately after they went on sale to the general public, though. For the first few years literally no other handgun in existence fired the same round, and not many gunsmiths would've carried spare parts or known how to repair it if it was damaged or jammed in some way the owner couldn't fix themselves.

Personally, in the situation Kitsune describes I reckon you could do worse than something in .38 S&W. Depending on the loading, you'll get performance at least comparable to 9mm Parabellum, and if you need more gun than that then you'd do better to saw off a shotgun.

Until there is a Glock available, the 1911 is certainly the thing to use. SIG's are nice, but the minimal advantage in ammo capacity doesn't outweight the power loss.

Lonestar wrote:

Torben wrote:Were it me, I'd probably start with a Colt 1848 Dragoon until 1873 or so when the Single Action Army is introduced. I'd probably stay with this for quite some time. When the 1911 comes out, I'd see it as a toy, not a real pistol.

Why? It performed better in reliability tests than the revolvers it was replacing. Better capacity, lighter, easier to reload and fire, and more reliable The 1911 is basically it until the Browning Hi-Power comes long.

Mind, you could make the argument that you'd stick to a revolver if you have a lever-action in the same caliber, which was a common thing in the late 19th Century...but really, the 1911 is the pinnacle of martial sidearms until the Browning HP comes out.

Primarily because I'm stubborn and resist change.

There is the Mauser C96 but was not available until later (around WW1) in 9 mm

It's interesting that at this time small arms were still developing. My impression is that today the only issues in purchase are personal preference and built quality, with little conceptual design difference. Does anyone have a sense of whether it was common for a lot of people to immediately replace their pistols with superior types when available during the 19th century, or would there be a lot of obsolete types in use a decade or two later?

This is kind of what I am looking at
1873 - US Army 1873 Revolver
1887 - Webley Top Break Revolver (Is there any other double actions that are heavy caliber around this time frame?)
1911 - US M1911

energiewende wrote:It's interesting that at this time small arms were still developing. My impression is that today the only issues in purchase are personal preference and built quality, with little conceptual design difference. Does anyone have a sense of whether it was common for a lot of people to immediately replace their pistols with superior types when available during the 19th century, or would there be a lot of obsolete types in use a decade or two later?

I can't imagine anyone but the rich would be doing that sort of thing when they needed to be sure that what they were using would work and was reliable.

I don't know about specific models, but the essence of pistols is the ammunition used. You want something you can get ammo for in most stores at the time, like 9mm (which is NATO standard) today. Something that has a more obscure or hard-to-obtain round may be avoided. This may be a factor even if your character is using custom rounds (you don't want uncommon shells or primers). So, you should look at pistol ammunition history rather than the actual pistols.

Consider that your character might not stick to a single gun for decades, but constantly buying new ones. He may lose them, they might be broken (in a fight, by time, got dropped into a septic tank, etc) and he may actually have to ditch them to avoid trouble (ie. he might throw it away when he crosses borders, or when he's under investigation). Consider that normal people lose valuable things over their normal lives, so sticking to the exact same gun isn't that necessary.

Besides, what he may have can depend on simply what he can buy, where he is (say, his options would be different if he's within the Iron Curtain) or simply what's available in the shops. Consider also in adoption dates that weapons made for the military may take years to be available for private citizens (whether they acquire it legally or illegally). From WW2, pistol mechanisms haven't changed terribly much, so it isn't very critical for him to buy new ones (unless he wants something like a fully-automatic gun or a double-action gun).

Custom designed would attract more attention than a mass produced pistol.

Not really, unless you want the pistol to be specifically flashy. You can get custom-made/handmade pistols that look like just any mass-produced ones even to people familiar with pistols (say a policeman). The only people who'd be able to notice the difference on sight are either armorers or pistol enthusiasts. Even then, so what? The fact that you are carrying a weapon is more noteworthy than the fact that it's custom-made.

Custom weapons have the downside of being more difficult to get repaired, unless the character is a gunsmith and basically builds and repairs it himself.

If he's immortal and one of his primary weapons is a pistol, then he may simply pick up the skills. You have to learn how to maintain your weapon. If he's using custom ammunition, he'll need a workshop anyway.

Why the fuck is this in N&P? It ain't goddamn news and it ain't goddamn plitics, so either the Mods are lazy, Kitsune's a fucking idiot, or a combination of the two is at play here.

Mr. Coffee wrote:Why the fuck is this in N&P? It ain't goddamn news and it ain't goddamn plitics, so either the Mods are lazy, Kitsune's a fucking idiot, or a combination of the two is at play here.

It's a Xmas miracle!
As for your list Kitsune I could see the 1911 being held off until post WWI and using revolvers until then for the simple reason that the Brits were making fine pistols in the late 1890s and the 1911 took awhile to catch on. More importantly .38 and .44 rounds were highly popular as rounds if you hit someone put someone down in one hit. I could see your hypothetical gunman using revolvers until the glut of post WWI weapons makes the 1911 look attractive.

Mr. Coffee wrote:Why the fuck is this in N&P? It ain't goddamn news and it ain't goddamn plitics, so either the Mods are lazy, Kitsune's a fucking idiot, or a combination of the two is at play here.

Some of us have family to visit on Christmas, you know.

I think I was looking at the Kalashnikov thread when I posted the new thread. . . .Sorry