StarDestroyer.Net BBS

A bit of background:

Some time ago we had an attempted break in to our building. Fortunately for us, the idiot was young, dumb, full of cum and drunk off his ass. My spouse took care of the situation with the aid of a garden shovel, which was applied to the side of Dumbfuck's head. As it happened, it only required the flat of the shovel, there was more noise than actual damage, and the local police force hauled Dumbfuck off to the local jail after the EMT's determined he wasn't in imminent medical danger.

Anyhow, despite the good-for-us resolution it was an unsettling event. Upon speaking with a sheriff's deputy a few days later the cop's first comment was "you should have hit him harder". Upon our asking if there was more we could do for home defense the deputy reminded us that no permits are required to own a shotgun in our state and, as neither of us were felons, there were no obstacles our obtaining such a thing.

Oh.

Well, I've been doing a little research on guns since then. It's not that we particularly desire a gun but they are, unquestionably, effective home defense tools when used properly. We haven't decided if we will actually purchase one or not. Our first preference would be to move someplace where home defense isn't such a pressing concern, but we're sort of trapped here by poverty and moving costs and, for better or worse, a gun is cheaper than moving. As part of that research I visited one of our local gun stores.

I'd been in Blythe's once or twice before over the years, usually with gun-owning friends or archery enthusiasts (they used to sell archery items, too, including bows that intended for hunting things like bears, but has since specialized in firearms). This time I was on my own. When someone asked if he could help me I said I was considering a shotgun for home defense and was doing a little research. They asked me what prompted the interest and I mentioned the attempted break in. I also mentioned my extremely limited prior experience with guns, including what I had fired in the past. I expressed concern about the size/power of a gun and my ability to handle it. The salesmen mentioned that most women are able to reliably handle a .12 gauge or .20 gauge gun, which are effective for home defense. I have fired a .30 caliber shotgun (the classic .30-06 or "Thirty Aught Six") but the recoil make controlling it difficult, it's really more gun than I'm comfortable with even if it's possible for me to use one. I'm not a very big person, after all, and not massively strong either. The guy said that if I was able to do that I would probably be able to handle .20 gauge with no problem.

He then had another gentleman take me over to their racks of guns to actually look at and handle their current stock. Prices ranged from $300 USD for very basic, no frills shotguns up to $1400 USD for up-gradable/modifiable semi-automatic shotguns. What the followed was a discussion of the various sorts and their benefits/drawbacks.

First up was the break-action shotgun. They had an over-and-under in the store, which basically means two gun barrels, one above the other (there are also side-by-side models). You "break" open the gun to load it, then close it. You get a maximum of two shots before reloading. The upside is that they are mechanically simple and durable, there being almost no moving parts. They have changed little since the last half of the 19th Century. You can, if you so desire, load one and leave for an extensive period of time, even years, and still rely on it firing when the trigger is pulled. Of course, this gets into the discussion of whether or not you should have a loaded gun about the place. Since our household is two responsible adults we don't have to worry about children getting ahold of it. If you do have a home intruder he may or may not wait for you to load your weapon, so if the gun is for home defense then keeping it loaded may be a reasonable choice.

Next was the pump action shotgun. That's the one with the distinctive, k-CHNK! "don't fuck with me" noise made famous by movies and TV. There is something to be said for that distinctive noise which, like a polished black metal gun, may make someone think twice about fucking with you. It is also a sound audible behind a door or around a corner, enabling you to warn someone you mean business without actually having to expose yourself. Of course, that's no guarantee of discouraging anyone (more's the pity - I'd love a reliable "bad-guy begone" noise) Aside from that, they allow you more shots before needing to reload but leaving them loaded for extended periods of time can weaken internal springs and make pumping the next round a problem. They do have more moving parts but are generally reliable, they've been around a long time, too, and allow a variety of ammunition to be used. They cost a bit more, but having more shots on board can be useful.

Finaly, the semi-automatic shotgun. Those start at around $700 USD and go up. A couple of advantages are that, being semi-automatic, they fire every time you pull the trigger and don't require and sliding of bits around. As the salesman noted, in a high stress situation this reduces the chances of your fumbling or having difficulty getting off your next shot. A home invasion would definitely qualify as "high-stress" in my book. They also, due to their design and how they cycle and eject rounds, have notably less recoil than other models which makes them easier to control during use. They also have more moving parts and require a little more care and maintenance.

There are also a variety of stocks and grips available. One issue is that, not being a large person, a couple of the guns had stocks that were uncomfortably big for my hands and body. The display models were by no means everything available, there are options that would fit me just fine, but it's something to consider in purchasing and one reason that going out to an actual store where I can handle guns is important versus simply shopping on-line. There is a lot to be said for being able to actually handle the item, work the various bits, and hold it as you would if you were intending to fire it.

Since I was talking about home defense they were also steering me towards short-barrel smoothbore models which are intended for short range and inside of buildings (there is a minimum barrel length for shotguns in the US - contrary to rumor we DO have gun laws and regulations, our are just a lot looser than a lot of other places). They aren't particularly accurate at a significant distance but for stopping an intruder they don't need to be. If you've never held a shotgun before they definitely have a noticeably weight all on their own, with some heavier than others. That gets back to comfort in holding/using the gun as well.

There's also a whole lot to learn about ammo. Shotguns can take a wide variety of ammunition, addressing concerns from minimizing excessive penetration of walls (ammo going through walls can injure people or destroy things you don't want it to - one of my high school classmates was rendered quadriplegic by a rifle round that went through multiple walls and a floor of a house) to desiring the ability to shoot through a door (which, of course, means you will also require a new door afterwards, as well as issues about properly identifying a target). How much of a kick a gun gives is dependent somewhat on the ammo used, but less powerful ammo may not reliably stop an intruder. On the other hand, having your gun barrel swing wildly after every shot isn't safe and means it will take you longer to re-aim it.

There is, of course, the grim and bizarre part of this conversation where, basically, we're discussing how to kill someone with this device. That is, after all, what a gun does. At home invasion distances a face full of shot at arm's length WILL kill the person shot, even with a "small" gun and "light" ammo. If the distances are greater and some other part of the person shot even if they don't kill they can and generally do cause horrific wounds. If you can't stomach the notion of killing someone in your own defense you should not own a gun for that purpose. A shotgun will also cause damage to your home, and to any possessions within the "cone" of shot fired. These aren't precision weapons and aren't intended to be. That good point to that is that they don't need a lot of aim or precision. The downside is that they are quite destructive.

That's the crazy thing about considering buying a shotgun for the home - it's not something I want to use. I'd be very happy never having to offer violence against another person ever again. It will, however, do quite a bit to level the field between a potentially young and fit burglar/criminal and two middle-aged people, one of whom is disabled at this point. That is, of course, why guns are called "the great equalizer". I know from past experience that, when it comes to self-defense, I don't have a problem harming the other guy to keep me safe. Neither does my spouse. We are both capable of shooting someone under such circumstances.

So, I haven't decided whether or not to actually purchase a shotgun. In addition to the base cost of the gun, of course, there will be additional costs for the ammunition, and for any safety classes (my spouse wants me to take some as a first time gun owner) or gun range access (our landlord, with his 70 acre property, may be able to help us out with that - he and his family do practice shooting on his property). Minimum $500 or more by my calculations, and that's money I could use in a lot of other places.

Anyhow - thoughts? Questions? Advice? Concerns?

I am well aware not everyone here is in favor of gun ownership, but I'd prefer to keep this a discussion of gun ownership rather than debate whether or not people should own guns. I do live in the US, in a state with relatively few restrictions on ownership so it's a matter of whether I, personally, should own a gun if we're going to discuss that end of it at all.

I've got a Mossberg pump 12-gauge and it's the cheapest piece of shit you will ever buy (like $200US around here) and it's also one of the best guns I've ever owned. The trick is to practice practice practice pumping after every shot. Or if ammo cost is an issue: go find an arcade with Big Buck Hunter (I'm not joking in the slightest). 00 buck-shot or slugs are the standard loads for defense, just make sure you won't fuck the choke up firing them. They also make personal defense shotgun rounds.

Shotguns are not the best option for home defense, but they are cheap and with the right ammo will put down anything you hit. My beef is that they are long and relying on the intimidating of the sounds the pump makes relies on bluffing (whether you will pull the trigger or not). I prefer my short-barreled 9mm Carbine: The Beretta CX4. More ammo, loads standard 9mm hollow-points, is easier to maneuver/harder to grab, and can easily mount accessories like a flashlight.

Hi-Point makes a 9mm carbine (the 995) that's a lot cheaper and has been around forever. The wife has one and my only issue is that hers had single-stacked mags, which limited the ammo count in the gun. But that shouldn't be an issue in a home defense case with 9 rounds.

Really, buy something you could see yourself shooting recreationally. A 12-gauge pump has more kick than an automatic due to no chambering mechanism eating up some of the recoil. I shoot Heavy Dove out of mine because it's cheap and has low recoil. However, you are still shooting a shotgun. After a few hours, your shoulder will get bruised and unless you shoot often, will be sore for a day or two after shooting. It also doesn't have as much spread as target loads, so you'll be a better shot if you practice with those types of loads. 9mm is still the cheapest pistol round you can get and shooting a Carbine is loads of fun and doesn't punish you in any way.

EDIT: 9mm isn't the cheapest. But .22LR isn't viable for self-defense and I don't see the point of .380 (9mm short). 9mm is pretty standard everywhere for many guns, so you can stock one caliber of ammo for future purchases. And Hollow-points solved any deficiencies in the round.

Get a double barrel shotgun. Its easier then you might think or wish to jam a pump action shotgun if you seldom use it, basically nothing can go wrong with a double barrel and you can't miss inside a house, and its well suited to using very light buckshot loads, or even two different loads at once. Your odds of needing more then the single double barrel blast are exceedingly low, if somehow you miss the person is going to run the hell away or else tackle you before you could pump a pump action shotgun anyway; in which case your gun is now completely empty which is good. No struggling over a loaded gun, you could drop it it and run if you had too and they can't shoot you in the back. You don't need magazines so several possible failure points are eliminated. Also it doesn't have to be 12 gauge, a number of double barrel 20 gauges are around for precisely this use.

Also long arms are just safer in general then handguns. Much harder to point it at yourself or other people all else aside.

Shotguns have the key advantage of being all around great home defense weapons. Heavy, kind on aiming and firing rounds that hit walls and stop. Unless you want to buy something that can fit in a nightstand at which you should be looking for a nice revolver. Really you have a great number of weapons to chose from even high end with a Ruger-14 or AR-15 shortened which make excellent home defense weapons.... if you think your going to have to engage fight five people. For everyone else a reliable easy to load pistol or a shotgun in a lock rack will do fine.

My own family swears by break open shotguns. They are guns that will just work for centuries.

What about a small caliber revolver? Kind of the same benefits of a shot gun in terms of mechanical parts, but in smaller package. Some leeway with the six shot ammo count enough to "stop" without reloading. Or is this a problem like you mentioned earlier with permits, is it any long gun? Quick wiki says a rifle can be 2 inches shorter in barrel length than a shotgun, not sure if that's a big enough convenience to consider rifle over shotgun.

Rifles are bad for home defense, high penetration, low stopping power, why would you want it?. Many rifle projectiles have exceptionally low stopping power at point blank range too, and actually the optimal is at several hundred yards; it just doesn't make sense considering a decent one for this purpose would also be fairly expensive as options go.

Meest wrote:What about a small caliber revolver? Kind of the same benefits of a shot gun in terms of mechanical parts, but in smaller package. Some leeway with the six shot ammo count enough to "stop" without reloading. Or is this a problem like you mentioned earlier with permits, is it any long gun? Quick wiki says a rifle can be 2 inches shorter in barrel length than a shotgun, not sure if that's a big enough convenience to consider rifle over shotgun.

It's a lot easier to miss with a handgun than a shotgun.

A double-barrel also has the advantage of extra psychological intimidation, because they look like they can deliver twice the buckshot at once. Actually firing both barrels at once is a terrible idea, mind you -at best you'll beat the hell out of your shoulder and probably miss and at worst you'll blow the thing up in your face- but your average scally won't know that.

Blow the thing up in your face? Could you cut the bullshit please.

*shrug* I was told it's not unheard of with worn out and/or very cheaply made ones while researching double-barreled shotguns for a writing project. My source on this is my wife, who's fired shotguns rather more often than I have.

That's about on par with saying a car with a broken steering rack shouldn't be driven on the highway at 200mph. Well duh. Any broken gun is dangerous, it'd be kinda weird if they weren't. This is not a relevant reason to buy an entire class of weapon. Meanwhile double barrels, and well any break barrel shotgun are immune to a large number of other forms of failure and generally have very strong actions considering the low pressure of shotgun rounds. Handguns and rifles are a lot more likely to blowup then shotguns of any form. Particularly any form of rifle ammo with a tapered cartridge.

A hurt shoulder is meanwhile completely irrelevant to a self defense situation. Yeah you might get a bruise, so what, you could get a bruise from a rifle or a single barrel shotgun too if you don't fire it right. This matters not one bit in a situation in which you consider your own life to be at mortal risk and it won't make you miss. The other person will have eighty rounds of buckshot in them and you ask for an icepack after the police and ambulances appear. Get a pad for the buttstock when on the firing range. Though with something like a double barrel 20 gauge you really don't need it, my Mosin kicks more then one of those does and millions of people fought wars with guns like that with the steel plate on the shoulder.

My suggestions would be as follows:

Consider checking with your local law enforcement on what kind of shotgun THEY use, and get the same kind. Not only have they probably picked something decent, it's thought that using the same kind of weapon as the police looks better to a jury if a self-defense incident goes to trial. This is pretty low on the list of considerations, though. On a similar note, consider getting the same ammunition that your local police use.

If at all possible, spend a little time shooting the model you're considering before buying it. Personal preference and individual fit play a large part in how usable a firearm is. For example, Glock pistols are very good guns, but I find them difficult to use because the grip angle doesn't suit me.

The Mossberg 500 and Remington 870 lines are well established classics with a long service history, including both police and military service. While people could argue that there are better choices, no one could accuse you of making a bad choice if you got one of them. As an added bonus, their popularity means there's a large selection of aftermarket parts to customize them. The biggest downside here is that the pump action is not entirely intuitive, so you'd be wise to practice with them.

Semi-automatic shotguns have historically been kind of finicky about their ammunition, and you do NOT want a malfunction during a life or death situation. However, modern models are supposedly better about that, and you can keep it loaded with something that you know it will feed. They're also going to be a little more complex to clean, AND more sensitive to dirt and fouling. I'd talk to someone who knows more than I do about semi-autos before deciding to get one for home defense.

For practice, look for Winchester AA Low-Noise Low-Recoil Target Loads. To my knowledge, they have the softest recoil of all the commonly available shotgun ammo. Winchester AA X-Tra Light Target Loads kick a touch harder but are easier to find and still much softer than a full power load.

And finally, whatever you get, DO practice. Make sure that both of you know how to load, operate, and unload the gun. Also learn what kind of pattern it produces--shotguns do NOT produce the wall of lead or 30-degree cone that Hollywood and video games depict. At any cowboy action shooting match, you can see people missing shotgun targets--you still have to aim, you just have a margin of error that a single bullet wouldn't give you.

I would not recommend a rifle for home defense, because of the overpenetration issues mentioned above. Be advised, however, that any ammo that will stop a human has enough power to penetrate two sheets of drywall and still be dangerous.

A pistol-caliber carbine is also a good choice for a long gun, and they have very light recoil, even when shooting a round that is considered very powerful for a pistol.

Handguns are compact and easy to store, but hard to HIT with compared to a long gun.

TheFeniX wrote:Shotguns are not the best option for home defense, but they are cheap and with the right ammo will put down anything you hit. My beef is that they are long and relying on the intimidating of the sounds the pump makes relies on bluffing (whether you will pull the trigger or not).

I understand what you're saying there. The "put down anything you hit" is, of course, the main concern. If things get to the point I'm shooting I want to stop whoever is approaching as quickly and efficiently as possible.

This gets back to arguments I've had with people over .45 and .50 handguns. Sure, lots of stopping power. Except I find .45's very difficult to hold for any length of time, much less do so in a steady manner, and a .50 is not something I can safely or reliably aim even with a two-handed grip. Despite less "stopping power" something like a .38 is actually much better for me because I can actually hit what I want to hit with it. A well-placed smaller bullet is going to be more effective than a who-the-hell-knows-where-it's-going larger caliber. A spray of shot will be more effective than a bullet that misses. While it is possible to miss with a shotgun it's a lot harder to miss completely with one than some other guns.

Looking into to shotguns has a lot to do with what's obtainable, what is affordable, what I can effectively use, and the laws of my state and county.

TheFeniX wrote:I prefer my short-barreled 9mm Carbine: The Beretta CX4. More ammo, loads standard 9mm hollow-points, is easier to maneuver/harder to grab, and can easily mount accessories like a flashlight.

Yes, but that's a single slug, you have to have more precise aim, correct? A shotgun scatters pellets, you don't need to aim precisely. If I point at the doorway I pretty much get everything in that doorway (plus, not unlikely, everything to the side of the doorway for a bit as well).

TheFeniX wrote:Really, buy something you could see yourself shooting recreationally. A 12-gauge pump has more kick than an automatic due to no chambering mechanism eating up some of the recoil. I shoot Heavy Dove out of mine because it's cheap and has low recoil. However, you are still shooting a shotgun. After a few hours, your shoulder will get bruised and unless you shoot often, will be sore for a day or two after shooting. It also doesn't have as much spread as target loads, so you'll be a better shot if you practice with those types of loads. 9mm is still the cheapest pistol round you can get and shooting a Carbine is loads of fun and doesn't punish you in any way.

OK, while I can certainly see the appeal of recreational shooting (I had a good friend who does that who took me down to a range and let me fire several of his guns) that is not what this is intended for. While you can certainly use a "home defense" gun for other purposes they are not ideal for target/recreational shooting or hunting. Likewise, a rifle - which is what your carbine is, essentially, a short-barrel rifle - have some interesting applications but aren't really ideal for what I'm considering here. There is the plus that you are less likely to hurt bystanders (which may be my overpowered spouse lying on the floor, or me in that position) but require more careful aiming in a potentially dark and confused situation.

Yes, your comments about an attachable flashlight, or for that matter an aiming laser-light, make a lot of sense. You can attach those to shotguns, too.

Yes, I am aware of the recoil. As I said, I have fired a .30 gauge. But I'm not intending to spend "hours and hours" at a shooting range on any sort of regular basis. As for sore shoulders - I am talking about a life-threatening situation here. I don't give a fuck if I'm sore the next day so long as when morning comes me and mine are alive and safe.

Sea Skimmer wrote:Get a double barrel shotgun. Its easier then you might think or wish to jam a pump action shotgun if you seldom use it, basically nothing can go wrong with a double barrel and you can't miss inside a house, and its well suited to using very light buckshot loads, or even two different loads at once.

I've heard of loading the first barrel with a lighter ammo, and the second with a heavier one, the idea being that if a lighter ammo stops him with less damage to surroundings that's good but if it doesn't the next round most certainly will do the job.

The mechanical simplicity is certainly appealing. This is not a situation where you want your machinery to fail.

Sea Skimmer wrote:No struggling over a loaded gun, you could drop it it and run if you had too and they can't shoot you in the back.

True, although an unloaded shotgun would make a very effective club.

Sea Skimmer wrote:Also it doesn't have to be 12 gauge, a number of double barrel 20 gauges are around for precisely this use.

Yes, apparently they make both 12 and 20 gauge doubles specifically for home defense use.

Meest wrote:What about a small caliber revolver? Kind of the same benefits of a shot gun in terms of mechanical parts, but in smaller package. Some leeway with the six shot ammo count enough to "stop" without reloading. Or is this a problem like you mentioned earlier with permits, is it any long gun?

For a handgun I would have to get a permit, which would just add more to costs. Handguns are also very difficult to reliably aim. I've been shot at with a handgun and the guy missed me completely (thank goodness). A lot of the problem with bystander injuries in Chicago these days are because people are firing off cheap-ass handguns (the fact they also probably have lousy form doesn't help either, and I suspect that both lack of real practice and possible psycho-active substance involvement is also an issue). It takes a LOT more technique and practice to hit something with a handgun.

Quick wiki says a rifle can be 2 inches shorter in barrel length than a shotgun, not sure if that's a big enough convenience to consider rifle over shotgun.

Not really – we're back to aiming issues, as well as concerns about over-penetration. Please refer to my OP where I mention knowing someone severely injured by a rifle round going through multiple walls. Granted I could get hurt or killed with a shotgun, too, but I don't really want to endanger either my neighbors to the north of me (another multi-unit building) or the bar to the south (at times filled with dozens of people). Hollow-point rounds do solve some of that problem, but don't have the “spread” which is part of the stopping/discouraging power of a shotgun.

Zaune wrote:A double-barrel also has the advantage of extra psychological intimidation, because they look like they can deliver twice the buckshot at once. Actually firing both barrels at once is a terrible idea, mind you -at best you'll beat the hell out of your shoulder and probably miss and at worst you'll blow the thing up in your face- but your average scally won't know that.

I'm told most modern double-barrels are designed so you can't fire both barrels at once. For my purposes I really wouldn't want to – you want the second shot in case the first misses or isn't enough.

Sea Skimmer wrote:A hurt shoulder is meanwhile completely irrelevant to a self defense situation. Yeah you might get a bruise, so what, you could get a bruise from a rifle or a single barrel shotgun too if you don't fire it right. This matters not one bit in a situation in which you consider your own life to be at mortal risk and it won't make you miss. The other person will have eighty rounds of buckshot in them and you ask for an icepack after the police and ambulances appear.

^ This. The point here is to win, even if that means some damage to yourself. A hurt shoulder will heal. For that matter, you can injure your wrist with even a small gun, too, if you aren't holding it properly. Bruises, muscle injuries/fatigue, soreness, and so on will get better.

Sea Skimmer wrote:Get a pad for the buttstock when on the firing range.

All the guns I looked at today had a rubber shock absorbing pad built right into the stock. Nice feature.

I will note that while you can not rely on psychological intimidation you certainly can use it. As I have mentioned, I'm a small, middle-aged woman who, quickly frankly, looks pretty harmless. I've always been small and harmless-looking, which a few people have been surprised to find out is NOT the case – small yes, harmless no. I learned a long time ago never to bluff – if you make a threat be ready to back it up. I look a HELL of a lot more dangerous when I'm holding a loaded weapon. Is that going to stop everyone? Hell no, but it will stop some people and I'm happy with that. If they don't stop they'll find out I'm not bluffing.

Actually shooting someone is last resort. I'm not at all opposed to using less lethal means to get someone to go away. I mean, we did use a shovel on Dumbfuck as opposed to the machete that was also in among the garden tools, nor did we go and get the crossbow. I'm perfectly happy to call the cops and let them handle the bad guys, but cops will admit that they can't be on the scene instantly.

“I have a shotgun” k-CHNK! is both a perfectly valid warning and can be enough to discourage someone up to no good. Hell, just letting someone know you're there and aware of them takes away any notion of surprise on their part. Turning on external lights, or setting off a car alarm, can prompt a would-be intruder to run away. Most bad guys don't want to get hurt. Letting them know that's a possibility can make them look elsewhere for trouble.

My intention is not to open fire as a first step. Everything is, of course, contingent upon the specific circumstances but having a gun as an option certainly slants things more in my favor. Just because I own a gun doesn't mean I have to shoot someone. If I decide I don't want to kill someone who is stealing my car from the driveway that's fine, as an example, I don't have to. I can stay inside and not escalate the situation, it's my choice.

Zeropoint wrote:Consider checking with your local law enforcement on what kind of shotgun THEY use, and get the same kind. Not only have they probably picked something decent, it's thought that using the same kind of weapon as the police looks better to a jury if a self-defense incident goes to trial.

The sheriff's office (we only have sheriff coverage where I am) would not make a specific recommendation, other than a shotgun we were both comfortable using. They are allowed to use a shorter barrel than civilians so no, I can't get what they have.

Indiana is a castle-law state. The law is pretty clear that I can use lethal force in defense of my own home. If the bad guy is physically in my home when he gets shot there will still be an investigation but most likely I'll be in the clear. On the property is a bit more iffy but castle law would still apply. As the sheriff deputy reminded us, you are NOT allowed to shoot people in the back if they're running away, or shoot someone across the street, or the like. Well, if they are shooting at you first from across the street that's one thing, but you'd probably still be better off fleeing through the back of your house rather than engaging in that sort of fire fight.

Shotguns have been used for home defense in this area since frontier days, they're pretty accepted in that role.

And finally, whatever you get, DO practice. Make sure that both of you know how to load, operate, and unload the gun. Also learn what kind of pattern it produces--shotguns do NOT produce the wall of lead or 30-degree cone that Hollywood and video games depict. At any cowboy action shooting match, you can see people missing shotgun targets--you still have to aim, you just have a margin of error that a single bullet wouldn't give you.

Absolutely practice will figure into this. My spouse used to own guns but sold his collection about 30 years ago, but I think those were mostly handguns. We would both need a little education on the specifics of a home defense gun and some practice. As I mentioned in the OP, I'm figuring the cost of some range time into the overall cost of acquiring one.

An emergency is NOT the time to read the manual for the first time!

Broomstick wrote: I've heard of loading the first barrel with a lighter ammo, and the second with a heavier one, the idea being that if a lighter ammo stops him with less damage to surroundings that's good but if it doesn't the next round most certainly will do the job.

Buckshot and a slug is fairly common like that. Buckshot first, then the slug. Slugs are absurdly effective, even if the person has body armor it will at the least really hurt them, but they have the overpenetration problem which makes them poorly suited to home defense, if hardly out of the question depending on construction and location of the house and how many people inhabit it. Otherwise two different weights of buckshot makes a certain amount of sense, but I'm not super sold on the idea that you need to do this.

True, although an unloaded shotgun would make a very effective club.

Yeah but lets be realistic, you aren't going to win a hand to hand fight anyway, you certainly don't seem to expect it, and many many objects in a home can be used as weapons. Throwing the gun at them meanwhile is another way to stun them and buy yourself a chance to escape. Though a consideration in this is if you have a one or two story house/apartment? Frankly though indoors its really hard to miss with a shotgun. Some people go for bayonets for the intimidation value but also because its actually pretty effective to hold a big knife on a stick in front of yourself in a narrow space; but this also makes for harder aiming so I would not endorse it. A super bright tactical flashlight to blind the person is a better option, though they can get expensive real fast. On the other hand they are also really useful for all flashlight needs.

Yes, apparently they make both 12 and 20 gauge doubles specifically for home defense use.

Yeah, usually have the minimal legal without the tax stamp (200 dollars) 18in barrel and a 2.5in chamber, because you just don't need a full 3inch one for point blank range.

Meest wrote:Quick wiki says a rifle can be 2 inches shorter in barrel length than a shotgun, not sure if that's a big enough convenience to consider rifle over shotgun.

A rifle can have a 16in barrel, a shotgun a 18in barrel before you need a 'short barrel' tax stamp from the ATF and ATF registration. However both types of weapon are subject to the same 26in overall length limit, and it is the overall length that matters in this context. So a rifle is no advantage and if you pay the 200 dollars to the ATF and deal with some federal paperwork (this is not a class III) you might as well get a short shotgun anyway.

I'm told most modern double-barrels are designed so you can't fire both barrels at once. For my purposes I really wouldn't want to – you want the second shot in case the first misses or isn't enough.

Some are yes, done to keep the weight down as many of them are intended for hunting where you want a quick reaction time, and the game is so fast you'll never get off more then two shots anyway, making pump action pointless.

Inside a house really, missing is hard though. Think about it. But if you aren't comfortable with guns yet a single shot or selectable model might well be best. Ideal is having more then one gun frankly.

Basically the plan of action should be to have a plan. Select multiple points within your dwelling at which you would meet an invader, how it might go, where someone might enter from ect... you may find this is going to mean you have situations where you have a high degree of target uncertainty. On the other hand you may find that your going to end up aiming a shotgun down your staircase, which is ideal in every respect tactically, and legally and morally. If they get away with your TV because you stayed upstairs, that's life right? Far better then going down to an encounter battle. If you have two floors odds are the gun lives on the upper floor ect...

Broomstick wrote: A lot of the problem with bystander injuries in Chicago these days are because people are firing off cheap-ass handguns (the fact they also probably have lousy form doesn't help either, and I suspect that both lack of real practice and possible psycho-active substance involvement is also an issue). It takes a LOT more technique and practice to hit something with a handgun.

I'm pretty sure most of it is just the fact that hitting a moving target with a pistol is hard. There was that incident not too long ago in NY where you had cops shooting up a bunch of bystanders while they were trying to take out a suspect with their sidearms.

Hitting a stationary target with a pistol is hard. First time I picked up a rifle or a shotgun I could hit the target, a couple shots and it was bull's-eyes. Handguns? Ha!

And really, the gangbangers here are truly using cheap-ass pieces of shit guns, have no training, and are just generally fucked up.

A shotgun scatters pellets, you don't need to aim precisely. If I point at the doorway I pretty much get everything in that doorway (plus, not unlikely, everything to the side of the doorway for a bit as well).

In my experience, this is not the case. For cowboy action shooting, my father uses a shotgun with a full choke, and it makes a pattern about three inches across at a distance of ten yards or so. My shotgun is cylinder bore, the most open and fastest spreading, and it makes a pattern 12 to 14 inches across at the same distance.

This is one reason I stress practice; it's important to have a realistic idea of what you and your weapon can do.

If you decide to go with a double-barrel, I might suggest going with a short "coach gun" style rather than the longer sporting clays / bird hunting style. The Stoeger brand shotguns have a poor reputation for quality and reliability, so maybe stay away from them. I can recommend the Russian-made Baikal Bounty Hunter II both by reputation and personal experience. Being a typically Russian firearm, it's got stiff springs and doesn't have any unnecessary polishing, but it's a VERY solid design, making it a rugged and reliable weapon. Mine is modified a little for faster operation and reloading, and I really can't think of any area where it needs improvement. It looks like EAA is importing them these days:
http://eaacorp.com/portfolio-item/mp200 ... e-shotgun/

Edit: I don't mean to say that I think this is what you should get, merely that IF you decide on a double, I think it warrants serious consideration.

Despite less "stopping power" something like a .38 is actually much better for me because I can actually hit what I want to hit with it.

Absolutely!

Broomstick wrote:I understand what you're saying there. The "put down anything you hit" is, of course, the main concern. If things get to the point I'm shooting I want to stop whoever is approaching as quickly and efficiently as possible.

Then you need a rifle. Likely something like what law enforcement uses: 5.56 rounds or something to that effect.

This gets back to arguments I've had with people over .45 and .50 handguns. Sure, lots of stopping power. Except I find .45's very difficult to hold for any length of time, much less do so in a steady manner, and a .50 is not something I can safely or reliably aim even with a two-handed grip. Despite less "stopping power" something like a .38 is actually much better for me because I can actually hit what I want to hit with it. A well-placed smaller bullet is going to be more effective than a who-the-hell-knows-where-it's-going larger caliber. A spray of shot will be more effective than a bullet that misses. While it is possible to miss with a shotgun it's a lot harder to miss completely with one than some other guns.

This is where practice comes in. I can draw my 9mm from its holster and put a shot in the 3" "bulls-eye" of a target at 7-10 yards before I even get my off-hand on the gun. From a "ready down" I can rapid fire 18 rounds into a 2-3" grouping on a target at 10-15 yards, maybe throwing 2-3 rounds down which would still be gut shots. I can do this after months of non-practice.

This does not require a Jedi-like mastery of the gun. It just takes practice to the point where the motions are automatic. The better you can shoot, the more automatic your trigger-pull and reset are, the better you perform under pressure. With 3-points of contact like you get on a rifle? You could blow the center of a target out at 25 yards with minimal practice. Rifles/carbines are that much more accurate than handguns. I "wowed" everyone by shooting nails off a board at 30 or so yards with my CX4. Until I let them all shoot it and they were doing it with 1 (my wife) to 5 shots (a friends wife). Shotguns with the right loads are in this same boat, but they are longer and heavier than many rifles. However, pumps generally do not fail like an automatic can. If they fail to fire, you pump them, eject the bad round, and pull the trigger again.

Looking into to shotguns has a lot to do with what's obtainable, what is affordable, what I can effectively use, and the laws of my state and county.

Practicality is as much a part of self-defense as anything. A gun is better than no gun if you're going that route.

Yes, but that's a single slug, you have to have more precise aim, correct? A shotgun scatters pellets, you don't need to aim precisely. If I point at the doorway I pretty much get everything in that doorway (plus, not unlikely, everything to the side of the doorway for a bit as well).

You don't get considerable spread on something like buckshot until you get into the +15 yard area. Shotguns are not area-denial weapons. Pellets, like those found in a load like heavy dove or snake shot do scatter like you are talking about. They are terrible self-defense rounds because even at high-speed, pellets generally do not carry enough energy to effectively penetrate and stop someone. You could always aim for the face, but that's a poor self-defense solution.

OK, while I can certainly see the appeal of recreational shooting (I had a good friend who does that who took me down to a range and let me fire several of his guns) that is not what this is intended for. While you can certainly use a "home defense" gun for other purposes they are not ideal for target/recreational shooting or hunting. Likewise, a rifle - which is what your carbine is, essentially, a short-barrel rifle - have some interesting applications but aren't really ideal for what I'm considering here. There is the plus that you are less likely to hurt bystanders (which may be my overpowered spouse lying on the floor, or me in that position) but require more careful aiming in a potentially dark and confused situation.

My carry pistol has thousands of rounds though it. A gun is a gun: it's meant to fire bullets. This does not harm the weapon (well, not a well-made one).

If practicing with a weapon is not an option, I recommend revolvers, automatic shotguns, and "rifles" that are built with an automatic action or a revolver action. More so revolvers than automatics because there's less chance of failure and said failures are solved by pulling the trigger again.

Stray shots are dangerous no matter the gun. There is no round, caliber, or frame that can prevent your stray round from killing someone. Even frangibles didn't live up to the hype (and do nothing at all of they are a clean miss). Any bullet that can be expected to kill someone can be expected to penetrate at least 3-4 interior walls and still cause a lethal impact if it hits someone. If you fire a bullet and miss, even pistol rounds can be lethal hundreds of yard away, even if you couldn't AIM to hit someone at that range to save your life.

Your best bet is to make sure when the time comes you have done everything to ensure you can put rounds on target and are not using a round (like a 9mm FMJ) that is known to over-penetrate.

TheFeniX wrote:This is where practice comes in. I can draw my 9mm from its holster and put a shot in the 3" "bulls-eye" of a target at 7-10 yards before I even get my off-hand on the gun. From a "ready down" I can rapid fire 18 rounds into a 2-3" grouping on a target at 10-15 yards, maybe throwing 2-3 rounds down which would still be gut shots. I can do this after months of non-practice.

I'm not buying a hand gun. I'm buying a long gun. I'm never going to be drawing it from a holster.

Rifles/carbines are that much more accurate than handguns.

I'm not buying a handgun, I don't understand why you keep bringing them up.

Shotguns with the right loads are in this same boat, but they are longer and heavier than many rifles.

I'm looking at shotguns with 20 inch lengths, at or near the legal minimum. Rifles are allowed to be a - oh, wow - 2 inches shorter BUT I think in this state their overall minimum length is the same (have to do a little more research on that). Having hefted the various models yesterday weight isn't going to be an issue. Yes, it will be fatiguing in practice but that's OK. In an actual defense situation I'm only going to be using it for a short time period and firing it only a couple of times, and will probably have a nice adrenalin rush going.

However, pumps generally do not fail like an automatic can. If they fail to fire, you pump them, eject the bad round, and pull the trigger again.

That's good to know.

My carry pistol has thousands of rounds though it. A gun is a gun: it's meant to fire bullets. This does not harm the weapon (well, not a well-made one).

Yes, but firing bullets just for the hell of it will harm my budget. That is one of my concerns here - ammo isn't free and I'm poor. Practice will be limited to what keeps me accurate, not for fun, at least not until my financial situation improves considerably.

If practicing with a weapon is not an option, I recommend revolvers, automatic shotguns, and "rifles" that are built with an automatic action or a revolver action. More so revolvers than automatics because there's less chance of failure and said failures are solved by pulling the trigger again.

I am not buying a handgun.

Stray shots are dangerous no matter the gun. There is no round, caliber, or frame that can prevent your stray round from killing someone.

Understood. That's why I feel it's important that if I purchase a gun it's one "light" enough that I have good control, because that minimizes the chances of wild shots.

Zeropoint wrote:

A shotgun scatters pellets, you don't need to aim precisely. If I point at the doorway I pretty much get everything in that doorway (plus, not unlikely, everything to the side of the doorway for a bit as well).

In my experience, this is not the case. For cowboy action shooting, my father uses a shotgun with a full choke, and it makes a pattern about three inches across at a distance of ten yards or so. My shotgun is cylinder bore, the most open and fastest spreading, and it makes a pattern 12 to 14 inches across at the same distance.

"Cowboy action shooting"?

Well, if I stand at the back of my kitchen the front door is a little over 10 yards away (34 feet, actually, or about 10 meters for you metric folks). Unless someone is coming through the door sideways and scrunched up against the side they're going to get hit with a 3 inch spread. That's actually reassuring, on a certain level, because I don't really want a lead sprinkler.

If you decide to go with a double-barrel, I might suggest going with a short "coach gun" style rather than the longer sporting clays / bird hunting style. The Stoeger brand shotguns have a poor reputation for quality and reliability, so maybe stay away from them.

When I said "home defense" the store guys steered me towards the shorter barrels so that does seem to be the universal consensus.

Thanks for the tip about Stoeger - the rock bottom prices where on that brand and I was wondering about their quality. Going for the absolute minimum price usually isn't a good idea. I'm thinking that $500 is probably my limit for a gun, though I wouldn't mind paying a bit less. From what I've seen that should be possible.

I can recommend the Russian-made Baikal Bounty Hunter II both by reputation and personal experience.

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.

Admittedly all of my experience with shotguns was from my military training better than 15 years ago, but if you have sufficiently large caliber shotgun and the correct kind of shot, you never need more than one shot to stop an intruder even if you only aim in their general direction. The standard anti-personnel shot we used was what is colloquially referred to as wolf shot here. A cartridge filled with 8.5 mm shot, it will put between three and half a dozen holes to a person at five meters (using a long barreled pump action shotgun) depending on how well you hit. More if you hit them full on.

Even if the gauge in any shotgun you get is not as wide as the one we used, using appropriately sized shot will put paid to any intruder in very short order. You don't even need a whole lot of practice in order to get reasonably proficient.

Your wolf shot is more or less what we call "double-aught buckshot", which uses 8.4 mm shot. It's a very common type here, whether for home defense or hunting.

I actually do have some interest in hunting, but I have none of that in my background, I don't want to try it alone, and I'd much rather team up with someone far more experienced than myself. One of the perks of the shoe and leather trade was interaction with hunters where I got the occasional "tip" in the form of game meat.

Broomstick wrote:I'm not buying a handgun, I don't understand why you keep bringing them up.

Fair enough, I got off on a rant there.

Shotguns with the right loads are in this same boat, but they are longer and heavier than many rifles.

I'm looking at shotguns with 20 inch lengths, at or near the legal minimum. Rifles are allowed to be a - oh, wow - 2 inches shorter BUT I think in this state their overall minimum length is the same (have to do a little more research on that). Having hefted the various models yesterday weight isn't going to be an issue. Yes, it will be fatiguing in practice but that's OK. In an actual defense situation I'm only going to be using it for a short time period and firing it only a couple of times, and will probably have a nice adrenalin rush going.

My CX4 has a 16.6" barrel and is half the length of my Mossberg pump. And adrenaline is not your friend when firing a weapon, unlike the strength it gives you when swinging a bat (or shovel). This is why I preach practice X infinity (and why I brought up my pistol experience): when shit hits the fan, you're working off muscle memory. Even if you haven't fired the gun much, you can still practice reloading with "dummy" ammo and work the action until the entire process is one step in your mind.

This gets me to dry-firing: it isn't bad for most guns. Sure 500,000 repetitions might finally burn out the firing pin, but that's a lot of practice. The only guns I've found that dry firing is really bad for are .22LR, but those actions/pins have always been finicky anyways.

Yes, but firing bullets just for the hell of it will harm my budget. That is one of my concerns here - ammo isn't free and I'm poor. Practice will be limited to what keeps me accurate, not for fun, at least not until my financial situation improves considerably.

12-gauge Heavy Dove load is your friend. Stuff is cheap and really doesn't go bad. I've had a few cases of rounds for over a decade and they still fire without issue. A box of 25 is around $8 in this area and 50 rounds in a day is more than enough to get your practice in. 9mm is in the same boat, as is .380, but I don't know of any cheap .380 rifles/carbines. You can then get a box of hollow-points or buck-shot or whatever to keep chambered at home.

If practicing with a weapon is not an option, I recommend revolvers, automatic shotguns, and "rifles" that are built with an automatic action or a revolver action. More so revolvers than automatics because there's less chance of failure and said failures are solved by pulling the trigger again.

I am not buying a handgun.

Fair enough, but I was talking more along the lines of the Rossi .45 Long Colt. It's a "rifle" based off the Judge revolver. It fires (as said) .45LC and .410 shotgun rounds. Same principal as a revolver: if the gun fails to fire, you pull the trigger again to "clear the jam." They aren't cheap though, not like the Hi-Point 9mm carbine or a Mossberg pump.

Stray shots are dangerous no matter the gun. There is no round, caliber, or frame that can prevent your stray round from killing someone.

Understood. That's why I feel it's important that if I purchase a gun it's one "light" enough that I have good control, because that minimizes the chances of wild shots.

And this goes back to my problems with shotguns for home defense. They are long guns, correctable by going with a pistol grip.... that then removes your 3-point of contact. And they tend to be heavy weapons compared to compact rifle or carbines.

I can hold my CX4 against my shoulder with only my dominant hand for quite a while, such as in a situation when I'd be on the phone and have the weapon leveled at my locked door. I can't do that with my 12-gauge for any considerable amount of time.

TheFeniX wrote: I can hold my CX4 against my shoulder with only my dominant hand for quite a while, such as in a situation when I'd be on the phone and have the weapon leveled at my locked door. I can't do that with my 12-gauge for any considerable amount of time.

Speakerphone. And/or Bluetooth.

Or just order the would-be burglar to get the hell off your property and call the cops with a description after you're sure they've gone.