Borgia:Triumph and Oblivion

[Scrib]

Anyone following this?

It's been running parallel to the Jeremy Irons version up until that one was cancelled. It's having its final season on Netflix and, imo, it's a more fun show than The Borgias even if you account for the fact that the Showtime version didn't get to end.

On the whole the Borgia just seem more..human? The show focuses more on Cesare than the Showtime version, and I think it's for the better. Cesare is a somewhat psychotic bastard, and infinitely interesting. In the Showtime version he just...well,he seemed good at being ruthless but without a wealth of...depth? facets in other regards to make him more interesting. Granted this show beats that drum far too much but at least it's interesting.

And the Borgia don't start off as the Corleones. They actually try to be something more than self-serving pigs. It actually makes you wonder how much of the bad shit the Italians say about them is actually true and how much is propaganda. On Showtime everyone is just an asshole all the time, which imo kinda weakens the shit that happens later in the Borgia timeline.

The enemies seem more defined too, in The Borgias I didn't really give a shit why the Sforza were fighting the Pope. An by god, the vaguely homoerotic relationship between Cesare and Louis is so hilarious.

It starts weak, with John Doman's accent and the initial acting of Cesare standing out, but it's all quickly forgotten imo as the series progresses.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Oh that's right, they have a new season dont they?

I like both series, they each have their strengths. Borgia: N & N (the N changes with each season, you see) is less stylized and more realistic + more historically accurate (though that is not saying a great deal) than the showtime series. On the other hand, Jeremy Irons just gnaws on the scenery and Francois Arnaud... um... lets just say that I want him for his body and his smile makes me melt into the floor and leave it at that. He also plays a better and more sympathetic human being( Spoiler

this is a dude who fucks his sister after they wait several seasons in obvious agony to do so, so that says something

) than his opposite number in the Netflix series who's Cesare is obviously suffering from MASSIVE bipolar disorder with a co-morbid psychotic disorder. Which is fun to watch in any case.

The Showtime series also had a MUCH better Machiavelli. Just... So Much Better.

Oh, and the music in the showtime series is far and away better. They use a lot of actual medieval and renaissance music.

[Scrib]

Oh that'they have a new season dont they?

I like both series, they each have their strengths. Borgia: N & N (the N changes with each season, you see) is less stylized and more realistic + more historically accurate (though that is not saying a great deal) than the showtime series. On the other hand, Jeremy Irons just gnaws on the scenery and Francois Arnaud... um... lets just say that I want him for his body and his smile makes me melt into the floor and leave it at that. He also plays a better and more sympathetic human being( Spoiler

this is a dude who fucks his sister after they wait several seasons in obvious agony to do so, so that says something

) than his opposite number in the Netflix series who's Cesare is obviously suffering from MASSIVE bipolar disorder with a co-morbid psychotic disorder. Which is fun to watch in any case.
s right,
The Showtime series also had a MUCH better Machiavelli. Just... So Much Better.

Oh, and the music in the showtime series is far and away better. They use a lot of actual medieval and renaissance music.

How far did you get in both series?

See, the whole bi-polar aspect of Cesare is what I love. Arnaud's Cesare really wasn't that sympathetic to me. None of the Showtime Borgias were. I think the tagline "The original Godfathers" matches them perfectly. It's what people think of the Borgia,Corleones with swords, brought to life. Arnaud...becomes a ruthless bastard. And, apart from the love of his sister, that's the main facet of his personality. In fact, they all (apart from Lucrezia) seem to start with the tagline. See the difference in how they handled the pretender to the Ottoman throne in both shows.

Totally different performance from Doman and Irons I'll grant that. I prefer Doman's take (he always seemed more human) but... I get Jeremy Irons.

Mark Ryder's version is far more interesting to me. He's mercurial, brilliant (though, again, they really hammer this point home), conflicted and insatiable. Watching him in his triumphs and failures is far more compelling because of it. It's difficult to care when Arnaud does something because ultimately the ruthless path will almost certainly lead to his victory and who cares? Take Savonarola. His relationship with Cesare in Canal!Borgia is what makes what happens something interesting. Spoiler

He doesn't just get fucked by some ruthless plan that I can appreciate only on a mechanical level(which is what Arnuad's Cesare would do). Everything that happens to him is interesting because of how it reflects Cesare's own inner turmoil. There's his second-to-last scene with Cesare which is carried solely by how Cesare (and Machiavelli) react to him. With The Borgias no one seems to give a shit. He's a chess piece, fuck him.

. In fact,that seems like a common thing. Characters like Louis and Machiavelli are given weight on the Canal show based on how they interact with it's protagonists which makes them feel less like political obstacles.

(And, honestly, if we're talking about beautiful men the actor who plays Louis >> Arnaud ).

But, I will admit that Cesare starts off in a bad place in Borgia. He does something fucked up and spends time being a sort of conflicted asshole until he reaches a certain turning point and then it's like a switch flipped in his head. Then he's just a glorious asshole. I like that asshole thing he did in the first few episodes. It is utterly fucking alien to me. I prefer that to a more familiar realpolitik action tale. The best thing about history is how different (or similar, sometimes) people back then were. Too many stories sacrifice that.

Of course, I think the Showtime version had better production values for stuff like music, costumes, battles etc.