Help the Native Americans repel the European invasion (RAR)

[Borgholio]

Time for my own little RAR here. By act of Q, you are transported to The Americas in the year 1292. You arrive in the territory of one of the larger tribes at the time, the Iroquois, Cherokee, Apache, Navajo, etc. Your pick. You can also choose to arrive in one of the Meso or South American civilizations such as the Aztec or Inca. You arrive with a magic box 8 square meters in volume (2 meters on each side). The box can make the following items on command and as many as can fit within the box:

Period weapons and tools. It can make muskets and pistols along with ammo and gunpowder. It can make small cannons or parts of larger cannons to be assembled later. It can make tools that can be used for anything, farming, construction, building ships, etc...

The tools and weapons it makes scale equally to what is common in Europe at that time. As they make new discoveries, the box can keep up with them. It cannot make futuristic weapons such as assault rifles or a nuke.

The box can make any kind of educational material, period or not. It can provide a history of what is to come when the Europeans arrive. It can provide detailed and easy to understand instructions on any kind of knowledge that is known to modern 21st century civilization (although of course providing education on quantum physics would be somewhat pointless). These instructions can be in the form of books, scrolls, pictures, or a device that can provide verbal instructions (for those tribes that rely on oral tradition and have not yet developed an alphabet)

Finally, the box can make medicine. It can make the most modern antibiotics, disinfectants, and most importantly, vaccines (including smallpox, measles, and others the native population has no experience with).

You yourself are gifted with the ability to communicate with any of the tribes you encounter. You do not age and are unable to be harmed or killed for as long as you are in this world helping the natives. You can return to your own time and universe whenever you wish. When you leave, the box leaves with you and the natives are left to their own devices.

You have exactly two centuries until Columbus sets foot in the Caribbean. Do you help the natives prepare for war or peace? Or do you let history repeat itself? What do you do?

[The Romulan Republic]

With two centuries, unlimited resources, and no threat to my own life, I pretty much can't be beaten.

My main worries are changing history and wiping out billions of peoples' existences (though simply being their will alter things somewhat regardless of what I do) and that whatever people I pick will either go conquistador themselves and spread war, slavery, and misery across the Americas (thus rendering any attempt to aid the populace fairly moot) or get crushed by neighbours afraid of being outmatched.

[K. A. Pital]

I don't even need the magic box if I can teach them without being harmed and killed. I become the God Emperor of Mankind.

[Borgholio]

Would simply educating them be enough to keep them save from the Conquistadors though?

[The Romulan Republic]

Two centuries of teaching modern scientific knowledge? That'll be quite an edge in and of itself. They'll be making their own guns by the end.

[K. A. Pital]

Two centuries is 10 generations. You could make them go from early Industrial Revolution to where we are now. So, not just guns. There will be primitive aviation, combustion engines, et cetera.

[The Romulan Republic]

So the native society of your choice can become that reality's counterpart of the British Empire or America?

[K. A. Pital]

It will be much better than the British Empire.

Instead of just teaching them to make guns, I would explain the basis of republican government, the need for total abolition of slavery, secularism, female rights and some international law, perhaps. As one of my favorite bands said, ten pens can do more than ten guns. Considering that their society will not be warped by the Christian invasion, it is very likely that America will become a beacon of progress for ages to come, if not centuries.

Europe's pathetic religion will be shattered when "messengers of God" arrive to a civilization that's bordering on the information age. Not sure how I could keep the locals from sailing out into the oceans once they learn how to make ships, though.

Likewise I am not sure what would be better: a very aggressive doctrine of "spreading progress" (a-la the French/Russian Revolution) or some form of isolationism like in China, Japan and early US. The first is likely to generate resistance, the second is likely to make the clash much more profound as Europe will still be barely out of darkerst ages at the time of contact...

[Starglider]

My main worries are changing history and wiping out billions of peoples' existences

I think you have to assume that these kind of scenarios are on a branching timeline / alternate universe. The alternatives are distracting and difficult to make ontologically consistent.

[Purple]

I say go for the aggressive approach. However I'd not go for the crowd favorites. Instead, I'd go to the Zapotec. They might not be the largest gang around but they have nice art. And it is my understanding that they ain't as bloodthirsty as the others around them. So that counts for something. As KA said I'd go all educational on them with an emphasis on keeping things on the same level throughout the board. My goal is for them to be capable of not just using but understanding and improving upon what I teach them. They can't just be an empire that collapses after I die. Instead I want them to be independent and stable so that they can colonize the rest of the world once I am gone.

As for my position in all this. Well I've got several centuries of life in me and a magical box. So clearly I am going to set my self up with a religion. Most notably I'd tell them that I am a physical personification of what ever god of theirs embodies knowledge. This will make it easier for their primitive minds to want my knowledge as well as making it easier for my self to get some perks out of it. Because lets face it, there ain't no point in being a god-king-teacher if you can't reap the benefits you dish out. And if Q gives me power you can bet your soul on it that I am going to use it for vine, food and babes.

As for foreign goals the situation is simple. Conquer all of South America and than if I have the resources proceed North. At the very least I want to hold territory all the way to Mexico to ensure any future Panama canals are under my territory and thus tax. As I go I would destroy all primitive cultures and replace them with a single enlightened culture based on modern-ish values. This is a grim necessity as the locals need to be kept from reverting to their unequal, slave owning, human sacrificing ways. As for Europeans I see no reason to allow contact. I'd have ironclad gunboats patrolling my shores and sinking all their ships. By the time one does get through and back I should have an empire spanning both continents.

And while we are at it. I'd establish that the only proper way to pray to their god of knowledge is through sex. That way I should get the population boom I need to keep the society full of fresh recruits.

[orbitingpluto]

I've got a few questions:

Can other people use the box for themselves, or is it something I alone have power over? It's also on the big side, but how heavy is it; how many people are needed to pick it up? If any village can send over a half dozen lads and steal my magic box, that ought to cause complications, at least if I don't want it moved. Also, does the weight of the items inside matter? If I didn't want people making off with it too easily, commanding some heavy stuff to be summoned to it's interior could help with that.

So, if I can't be harmed or grow old, does this mean I'll never get weather beaten and tanned, or have the opportunity to grow out the kind of facial hair befitting my status as the mentor guy of North America? That's trivial stuff about being timeless and unchanging, but if I'm not going to change physically while I'm there, that will put a cap on my ability to do the walking and who knows what else I'll get up to, since I'll always be the out of shape guy I currently am. While not being able to run fast sucks, depending on what 'unharmed' covers, I also might not get tired, winded, or need to sleep, which would be useful thing to balance out my physical weakness. I don't know if that's the case though, so it's up to you how it actually works.

While I want a better idea about the scenario, already I think I'll generally try to stimulate a prosperous Native America via medical information, agriculture, and reducing the need to compete over resources via technology and information. I'm tempted to start out near the Great Lakes, since there's some many rivers and the lakes themselves for irrigation and trade, but other places near a major river or coast should work to my advantage, enabling not only myself to travel, but also whoever I help as well. If the people themselves are spreading the technologies, new techniques, or new crops, all the better. I can't do that as easily from a butte somewhere in the desert, or in some hidden valley in the Andes.

Also, better weapons are bound to pop up despite what some magical guy says about making better killing implements, so at best I won't have to do anything to arm people, at worst I'll pull a 'time of need' speech out of my behind while I set the box to cook up firearms for the underprepared Native Americans. War sucks, and in this scenario warmongering would hurt my ability to act as the magic adviser guy I want to be seen as.

I don't know how I would begin to explain to people what the hell I'm up yet. Being sent back in time with magical powers by a sometimes jerkass alien to avoid our outcome of Europeans conquering the New World is a heavy thing to understand, and that's what I think- what are the people I'm being sent back to are going to react.

[Borgholio]

Can other people use the box for themselves, or is it something I alone have power over?

You alone have the power to control it. Others may make requests of it with your permission.

It's also on the big side, but how heavy is it

It only moves when you want it to. You can push it easily when you choose to do so. Nobody can steal it. The weight of the objects inside do not affect the box in any way.

So, if I can't be harmed or grow old, does this mean I'll never get weather beaten and tanned, or have the opportunity to grow out the kind of facial hair befitting my status as the mentor guy of North America?

Getting a slight tan or growing your hair is normal and not harmful. You will still feel the restrictive effects of a physical body, such as fatigue and hunger, but you will not die from illness or injury or starvation. Your body will not waste away if you fail to eat...your stomach will simply never cease growling.

Any attempt to deliberately hurt you will fail to actually cause a wound or inflict pain. So they won't be able to tie you up and torture you for example, since you won't feel the pain. If they somehow manage to restrain you in such a way that you can never escape, then you just will yourself to return home. Both you and the box vanish and they're left empty handed.

To clarify, my definition of harm is something that causes actual physical damage to your body, or inflicts an undesirable level of pain (undesirable as defined by you).

[Starglider]

Immortality and a minature factory is not enough to (reliably) make the average internet forum denizen a successful continental dictator. It is still going to take actual skill at integration, leadership, manipulation and a fair bit of luck and ruthlesness. Most people who tried an aggressive approach would end up buried alive, the box stolen and then discarded/destroyed/hidden by a rival dictator, or just imprisoned, enslaved or exiled.

I would go for an 'oracle' approach that starts with some travelling + teaching + learning and then aims to set up a temple / university / factory that all tribes and individuals can make a pilgrimage to and benefit from if they meet basic ethical standards (which would probably start low and ramp up over time). Building an alliance and establishing pressures that select better leadership over time seems less risky, less violent and frankly less arrogant than trying to take over a tribe and then using them to conquer a whole continent. The theoretical advantage of conquest is that you can remove toxic power structures faster, but at the cost of having a militarised aggressive society with an economy used to benefitting from plunder rather than trade. Sure there are some really nasty groups that do merit aggressive elimination, but you are in a good position to broker a 'coalition of the willing (with cannons)' to take them out.

[K. A. Pital]

Religion at this stage may be a good idea to quicken national formation. That way you could be a Muhammad, or in the worst case a Khomenei type of person, and the power struggles will generally happen outside, never challenging the core concepts of your rule and your religion.

[Purple]

And having local elites provide brides to give birth do demigod children which than become your new local elite ensures that anyone with the influence to gather enough rebels to challenge you feels represented.

[orbitingpluto]

Thanks for the answers Borgholio, but just to be clear, is getting stronger after exercise, like carrying a pack on the tail between villages, covered under the not actual harm, so it affects me rule?

[Borgholio]

Thanks for the answers Borgholio, but just to be clear, is getting stronger after exercise, like carrying a pack on the tail between villages, covered under the not actual harm, so it affects me rule?

Yeah you can gain muscle mass from exercise. That also is a normal non-harmful bodily function.

[The Romulan Republic]

And having local elites provide brides to give birth do demigod children which than become your new local elite ensures that anyone with the influence to gather enough rebels to challenge you feels represented.

Do the brides get any say in the matter? I'm guessing "no" for a lot of human history and your post doesn't clarify what you mean on this point, so I have to ask. Because without the consent of the "brides", "brides" is a nice clean euphemism for sexual slaves/rape victims. I hope that was not your intent, but clarification would be appreciated.

In any case, I think that some people are missing the point here. They're talking about setting themselves up as a conqueror or prophet. Well, in that case, aren't the natives still being conquered by an outsider? Maybe one more benevolent and advanced than the historical European conquerers often were, but still conquered. The fact that most of our board is probably European or of European descent just drives home the irony. You're not talking about opposing the imperialist conquest of the Americas. You're just saying "when I'm the conquerer, I'll get it right".

Edit: To be fair, you could argue that Q is a god (albeit not a highly benevolent one) who has selected you to be his agent in this scenario.

[Purple]

Do the brides get any say in the matter? I'm guessing "no" for a lot of human history and your post doesn't clarify what you mean on this point, so I have to ask. Because without the consent of the "brides", "brides" is a nice clean euphemism for sexual slaves/rape victims. I hope that was not your intent, but clarification would be appreciated.

I meant exactly what I said, word for word. A tried and true strategy of conquerors in any pre-modern age when bloodlines were still important for legitimacy was to leave local elites in charge of the conquered territory and secure your position and relationship with them via political marriages. That way you had people who were in touch with the population ruling in your name as opposed to conspiring against you. And they felt represented in your government thanks to being related to you or your high vassals.

And no, as with all arranged political marriages neither side has a choice in it.

In any case, I think that some people are missing the point here. They're talking about setting themselves up as a conqueror or prophet. Well, in that case, aren't the natives still being conquered by an outsider? Maybe one more benevolent and advanced than the historical European conquerers often were, but still conquered. The fact that most of our board is probably European or of European descent just drives home the irony. You're not talking about opposing the imperialist conquest of the Americas. You're just saying "when I'm the conquerer, I'll get it right".

Actually I am saying "When I'm the conqueror I'll actually make bloody sure my conquest is as benevolent and enlightened as it can be and actually advances human civilization and life for those I conquer as opposed to allowing them to be condemned to a future of disease, slavery and genocide."

[The Romulan Republic]

Do the brides get any say in the matter? I'm guessing "no" for a lot of human history and your post doesn't clarify what you mean on this point, so I have to ask. Because without the consent of the "brides", "brides" is a nice clean euphemism for sexual slaves/rape victims. I hope that was not your intent, but clarification would be appreciated.

I meant exactly what I said, word for word. A tried and true strategy of conquerors in any pre-modern age when bloodlines were still important for legitimacy was to leave local elites in charge of the conquered territory and secure your position and relationship with them via political marriages. That way you had people who were in touch with the population ruling in your name as opposed to conspiring against you. And they felt represented in your government thanks to being related to you or your high vassals.

And no, as with all arranged political marriages neither side has a choice in it.

A non-voluntary sexual relationship is, guess what, rape. You can call it what you want. You can correctly point out that it was commonplace in history. Doesn't change what it is. I am a 21st. century man and will not condone or participate in such things even if they are the custom of the time and place. If that hinders the mission, so be it. Q can kiss my ass. I can't actually die, and things are unlikely to turn out much worse for the natives than they did historically.

In any case, I think that some people are missing the point here. They're talking about setting themselves up as a conqueror or prophet. Well, in that case, aren't the natives still being conquered by an outsider? Maybe one more benevolent and advanced than the historical European conquerers often were, but still conquered. The fact that most of our board is probably European or of European descent just drives home the irony. You're not talking about opposing the imperialist conquest of the Americas. You're just saying "when I'm the conquerer, I'll get it right".

Actually I am saying "When I'm the conqueror I'll actually make bloody sure my conquest is as benevolent and enlightened as it can be and actually advances human civilization and life for those I conquer as opposed to allowing them to be condemned to a future of disease, slavery and genocide."[/quote]

You may be a well-intentioned conquerer, but a conquerer nonetheless.

Me, I'd just offer information and supplies of the less dangerous variety free of charge, and advice if they want it, and call it a day. If they want to listen to my political ideas so be it. If not, again, so be it. I won't play conquistador.

[Purple]

A non-voluntary sexual relationship is, guess what, rape. You can call it what you want. You can correctly point out that it was commonplace in history. Doesn't change what it is. I am a 21st. century man and will not condone or participate in such things even if they are the custom of the time and place.

Get off your high horse captain morality. Do you think I'd enjoy marrying some random girl from 10 centuries ago with no concept of civilization, modern morality or indoor plumbing? Someone who probably thinks taking a bath will make her skin wear thin and that the sun won't come up if you don't regularly sacrifice thousands of humans? If anything this would be just as much rape of me as of them. In fact more, because I actually have the cultural background to recognize how wrong it is. But it's something that I personally feel would go a long way toward ensuring a stable conquest and integration of those territories. And thus something I am willing to do as a sacrifice to prevent rebellions and wars.

If that hinders the mission, so be it. Q can kiss my ass. I can't actually die, and things are unlikely to turn out much worse for the natives than they did historically.

Hyper ventilating much? I'd say that this was what I'd do and not that this was a requirement for everyone. Like you seriously have a problem with emotional outbursts.

You may be a well-intentioned conquerer, but a conquerer nonetheless.

Which is not necessarily a bad thing. Call me a devil but if in the end my net results are good I'll take that nickname over any angelic name you can think off for someone who does more harm than good.

Me, I'd just offer information and supplies of the less dangerous variety free of charge, and advice if they want it, and call it a day. If they want to listen to my political ideas so be it. If not, again, so be it. I won't play conquistador.

So you would essentially be handing the equivalent of superweapons to a group of people whose primary goal is to enslave or conquer their neighbors for human sacrifice or at least labor. That's just monstrous. It's like going into 1930's Germany and meeting this young Austrian painter with whom you decide to share your thoughts and atomic weapon designs in the hope he picks the thoughts and not the A-bomb.

[muse]

I read a book about this once, though I don't remember much. Other than Columbus getting his ships sunk.

[The Romulan Republic]

A non-voluntary sexual relationship is, guess what, rape. You can call it what you want. You can correctly point out that it was commonplace in history. Doesn't change what it is. I am a 21st. century man and will not condone or participate in such things even if they are the custom of the time and place.

Get off your high horse captain morality. Do you think I'd enjoy marrying some random girl from 10 centuries ago with no concept of civilization, modern morality or indoor plumbing? Someone who probably thinks taking a bath will make her skin wear thin and that the sun won't come up if you don't regularly sacrifice thousands of humans? If anything this would be just as much rape of me as of them. In fact more, because I actually have the cultural background to recognize how wrong it is. But it's something that I personally feel would go a long way toward ensuring a stable conquest and integration of those territories. And thus something I am willing to do as a sacrifice to prevent rebellions and wars.

Captain morality, huh? Not a bad superhero name, if a bit unsubtle.

Being rape of two parties by the political/social system would only make it more wrong. Though since there's no reason you'd have to participate in such a system and are choosing to do so, while those married off to you by their societies presumably would not be, my sympathy would be very limited.

I gave my honest opinion on such systems. You have the right to a different opinion, but I'll stand by mine. If it bothers you, I don't particularly care.

And I don't have to worry about preventing rebellions because I have no intention of ruling.

If that hinders the mission, so be it. Q can kiss my ass. I can't actually die, and things are unlikely to turn out much worse for the natives than they did historically.

Hyper ventilating much? I'd say that this was what I'd do and not that this was a requirement for everyone. Like you seriously have a problem with emotional outbursts.[/quote]

Merely acknowledging that I have considered possible consequences and decided they don't change my position.

I can be a bit melodramatic, but sometimes I find it a useful rhetorical tool.

You may be a well-intentioned conquerer, but a conquerer nonetheless.

Which is not necessarily a bad thing. Call me a devil but if in the end my net results are good I'll take that nickname over any angelic name you can think off for someone who does more harm than good.[/quote]

It seems to me rather ironic to conquer the natives to prevent them being conquered by Europe.

The question is, are their better alternatives? I'd say yes. I have a long time to alter things through less brutal means.

Me, I'd just offer information and supplies of the less dangerous variety free of charge, and advice if they want it, and call it a day. If they want to listen to my political ideas so be it. If not, again, so be it. I won't play conquistador.

So you would essentially be handing the equivalent of superweapons to a group of people whose primary goal is to enslave or conquer their neighbors for human sacrifice or at least labor. That's just monstrous. It's like going into 1930's Germany and meeting this young Austrian painter with whom you decide to share your thoughts and atomic weapon designs in the hope he picks the thoughts and not the A-bomb.[/quote]

"...I'd just offer information and supplies of the less dangerous variety..." You know, shit like farming techniques and medicine. Now those could indirectly aid fighting a war, but they're not inherently harmful in and of themselves. I'm sure as hell not handing out canons to the first tribe I meet.

[The Romulan Republic]

Basically, I'm going to give humanitarian aid and advice to anyone who needs it. I'm going to be quite up front that I am not a god- I'll just say "I am a man from another world sent to help you in your time of need. The things I provide are not miracles or magic, but tools that you too can someday learn to build." I'll be as benevolent and forthright as possible. I don't have to fight dirty because I can't be killed and have a bottomless source of resources that only I can control. I hold all the fucking cards here. I'm basically like Superman, so I don't need to abuse my power and can't afford to because there's no one who can stop me.

Over time, the things and knowledge I provide will lead to more prosperous societies. Perhaps I'll earn enough respect and good will that people will listen to my ideas for political reform.

The one time I would arm someone would be to prevent genocide or a comparable act of mass murder, and even then only as a last resort, because once the gunpowder cat is out of the bag, there's no putting it back- someone can figure out how to build that shit for themselves.

[Borgholio]

I read a book about this once, though I don't remember much. Other than Columbus getting his ships sunk.

I really want to read the book now. The Wiki on it makes it look like an interesting story.