National Pride...

[SolarpunkFan]

This thread is about people who have or have experienced pride in their country.

I don't know if this makes me a bad person or not, but I have a lot of pride in the U.S. Don't get me wrong, we have plenty of problems, but there's also some stuff to be proud of (I think...). I get kind of miffed that China is leapfrogging over us, but maybe I should just get over it.

Anyone else have pride in their country? How does it affect you and the people around you?

If I've faux-pased here, the moderators are free to delete this thread.

[Joun_Lord]

Its probably wrong just like taking pride in ones race or heritage (shit you didn't accomplish and have no control over, crap you just happened to be born into/as) but yes I feel a bit of pride for my country (Murica).

Which I think is okay same with taking pride in all that other bullshit just as long as you don't let it blind you from failings or think its superior to others it becomes a problem. If I loved America so much I couldn't see the ugly fucked up shit it does, if I ignored the many failings of its government and court systems, if I tried to cover up the endemic racism from fucking everybody, thought America was teh bestest and perfect and so on. It would be the same if my pride in being black (if you believe the one drop rule) morphed into a stupid belief that my supposed race was superior to others.

All that is wrong. There are alot of really terrible countries but none that are the best or perfect. Nothing wrong with have pride in ones race, even white pride which I don't have to worry about considering I'm black because my great great granddaddy was African, as long as its just prideful, not hateful and not a thought of superiority.

Now thats probably not the most PC way of thinking but I'm not the most PC person.

[SolarpunkFan]

Of course. I realize we have a lot of problems and have done quite a bit of heinous shit over the centuries, but we've also done some good (though I wish we were better).

[Raw Shark]

The thing I'm the most proud of about the USA is that it was built to adapt*. The Constitution includes provisions for change, because the Founding Fathers were smart enough to realize that it would be necessary. It's only up to us, the living, to do it.

* Okay, also some pretty great architecture and statuary.

[Gandalf]

I was sort of patriotic until I was about seven and realised I never saw it outside of marketing. Since then I've found it a puzzling phenomenon. While there are things in Australia's history that are worthy of pride if one is so inclined, I don't see how that isn't outweighed by the means by which Australia became a country, and similar concerns.

Now if watching the Olympics or other international stuff with friends, I just cheer on the team from the poorest country.

[The Romulan Republic]

I have felt patriotic pride at times, but recognize that it is somewhat illogical and, if taken too far, actively dangerous.

That said, I am forever fascinated by my countries (both- I am a duel citizen) and want the best for them and those who live in them.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I am in the same boat as TRR I think. I have certainly felt pride in my county (the UK) and in the various achievements we have produced over the centuries. I am also acutely aware of the dark and terrible things we've done. But I acknolwedge those without losing a sense of pride in the good that we have done.

[Iroscato]

I've never been able to be proud of the geographical location in which I happened to be born in. I would say that I'm proud of humanity as a whole whenever it does something worthy of it, though.

[Soontir C'boath]

As someone who's family came from Taiwan, much of my interest or pride for that matter is in relation to its well being with China across the strait. The last thing I want is for it to become another Hong Kong and they wouldn't even have a treaty with someone like the British to at least keep a modicum of checks in place.

As for being an American, I don't really have any. Now of course, one can point to any country and see the shit that they have done and continue to do should mean no one should have pride in their countries, but pride in one's nation frankly seems to usually mean being blind to its faults.

[Simon_Jester]

The thing I'm the most proud of about the USA is that it was built to adapt*. The Constitution includes provisions for change, because the Founding Fathers were smart enough to realize that it would be necessary. It's only up to us, the living, to do it.

The US is, these days, far from the only country that has this distinction... but at the time its original constitution was written, it was virtually the only country designed for this, so far as I know.

There are a lot of ways in which I do not share the general veneration of the Founders in the US, because there are a lot of things they got wrong, and a lot of ways in which their shortsightedness cost us at a later date. But that was a very important point they got right, which few if any previous designers of republics had taken into account.

[mr friendly guy]

I have pride in our sporting teams I suppose. England of course is still the old enemy as far as cricket is concerned. There are certain things I am proud of in Australia, although I suspect a lot of others will not associate these things with national pride. Things like high standard of living, universal health care and apologising for past fuck ups like the Stolen Generation (although we still have a long way to go).

As a primary school kid who grew up in the 80s with racism and then saw it again on a national level in the 90s, it really is quite hard to feel the sort of emotion flag waving people feel. From a young age the message seemed to be the country did not want me (although it was really a bunch of wankers with shitty teachers who couldn't give a shit in the case of the 80s and a not insignificant part in the 90s if opinion polls are anything to go by), so why would I feel patriotism for that? If I was a primary school kid in the 2000's when we apologise for the Stolen Generation and a high schooler in the 2010s where you see anti fascists protesters attack fucking racists (like in Sweden), I might feel more national pride. Not so much because of the violence per se, but because it says that we as a nation have certain principles and we are not afraid of standing up for said principle.

As of right now, I will second a previous poster. I feel proud for humanity as a whole when we (or individual nations) do something awesome. Like advances in science, economic development etc.

[madd0ct0r]

I'm not. I'm really not. As eternal freedom said, the UK has done a lot of shit over the years. There's recently released cables on wikileaks that show us carving up Syrian oil fields with France prior to an agreement to invade, so I can't even say we're getting less overt. The financial sector that drives land prices indirectly pays my wage. It's a parasite on the world economy.
More to the point, I'm British by passport by birth. Not because I achieved anything. My great grandparents were shooting at each other in the great war. Was one better than the other?. My brother in law, being a citizen of a developing country, must work twice as hard for a tenth of the stability and comfort I have. What have either of us done to deserve to be proud of the legal entity that happened to define our birth? Well, Vietnam has repeatedly defeated immense enemies and the UK, being a tiny, damp island should not have ruled 1/4 globe, so yay for the underdog?

[Thanas]

There is a difference between patriotism and nationalism that is most important to observe (and note that I am only talking about democracies here).

The Patriot takes joy in his country when it does something good, wins at sports or performs some other achievement. He is also acutely aware of the failings of his country and strives to better it. He acknowledges when other countries are better at something and will try to study their methods to better his own society.

The nationalist likewise takes joy in his country because it gives him a sense of superiority, a sense of being better or being part of a better nation than others. He views dispute and reforms as dangerous. He thinks that his self-worth is acutely defined by being a part of his country and thus any attack on his country is an attack on him. He views himself as a citizen of nation X first and as a brother to his human beings second.

In my opinion the first point of view is not wrong. The fine line between it and nationalism is what must never be crossed because that way the end of democracy arises.


Also, from personal observation, especially young people who have not accomplished much in life see patriotism/national pride as a refuge. That usually fixes itself once they realize what really matters in life and how little of that is influenced by having pride in your country.

[K. A. Pital]

I don't give two shits about nations or their leaders. What matters are humans, and more precisely the working class.

The US is a vile nation because it controls and orchestrates the boot-stomping of the global workers class by its corporations, who are impersonal machines designed to subjugate billions of humans for the wealth of the very few.

Patriotism is an engineered element of the national-bourgeois ideology and represents only tribalism on a new level.

[Channel72]

Patriotism is an engineered element of the national-bourgeois ideology and represents only tribalism on a new level.

I don't think patriotism is entirely engineered. Certainly, the earliest "nation" entities (Sumerian city-states) had already developed a sense of patriotism/nationalism. This nationalism was probably partially engineered (or at least cultivated) via the local temple cult as a means of driving revenues, but it's also pretty obvious that tribalism is a natural, biologically evolved feature of primates.

[K. A. Pital]

Patriotism in the modern nation-state sense certainly is engineered. If you don't actively educate people from childhood about the national ideals, national cohesion etc., they would not rise above mere tribalism just by themselves. And education is always controlled by the ruling class.

Tribalism, on the other hand, is a more naturally arising loyalty system. It comes from directly supported social contact in the small circle (tribe), which could be viewed as a very extended family.

To make one from the other, active government effort is required, even in city-states.

[TheFeniX]

It's hard to care about Patriotism when you've been deluged with Texas patriotic garbage, because you either buy it up early or it just deadens you to all forms of it. Same thing with extremely religious upbringing in my experience: you either drink the koolaid and go fundy, or you just stop caring completely because you're so damned tired of it.

If I had to sum up my experience with Texans, it would be "Texan first, American Second." Shit, the damned "Ford is the best in Texas" jingle cannot be thought without that stupid song playing in my head. In school, Texas was best because we lasted a few years as our own Republic. Texas, Texas, Texas, fucking Texas.

There's this huge commercial feel to Texas Patriotism. It was like those American Flag dresses being made after 9/11. WTF? But it's like that all the time here, even in Houston. But damn, pick a cardinal direction and start driving: yeesh. The bumper stickers alone just get more and more idiotic the farther you drive.

I take the most pride in what I do, but I am "proud" to be Texan and American... and white, I guess. There's shit that comes with all 3, but I've never found myself saying "I wish I wasn't X." I HATE Texas sometimes. Now, more than ever because even out west, Houston has become a shit-show. But I honestly can't think of anywhere else I'd actually want to live.

[Raw Shark]

Shit, the damned "Ford is the best in Texas" jingle cannot be thought without that stupid song playing in my head.

I'm kind of curious, being a Ford man and all, but I feel like I might be opening the portal to Hell here...

In school, Texas was best because we lasted a few years as our own Republic. Texas, Texas, Texas, fucking Texas.

Yeah, so did Vermont. You don't see them going on about it (much). ;]

[TheFeniX]

I'm kind of curious, being a Ford man and all, but I feel like I might be opening the portal to Hell here...

It's a licensed play off the "God Blessed Texas" song by.... hold on... Little Texas... Seriously? I never knew the name of the band and I should feel both stupid AND ashamed now. Anyway, I've been hearing it for over 20 years if I dare turn on regular TV. It's burned into my soul.

It's a really annoying version of "Hi, I'm Troy Mcclure: you're now reading this in my voice."

In school, Texas was best because we lasted a few years as our own Republic. Texas, Texas, Texas, fucking Texas.

Yeah, so did Vermont. You don't see them going on about it (much). ;]

It adds up. They have "Vermont Edition" stuff? Like... for everything? Because that's what Texas has. There seems to be a Texas Edition of everything around here. Not just vehicles. A lot of products we see advertisements for is aimed at "Hey, you're a normal person who happens to live in Texas, so it's obvious you long to be a shit-kicking redneck!" "Lonestar" paraphernalia and other random bullshit like that (made in China of course) is everywhere, and I'm not talking about sports stuff. I can stop at almost any gas station and pick-up a wallet with a huge Texas flag emblazoned on it with little issue.

Tell me you deal with that because I've generally thought of it as Texas Crazy and it would be nice to know others feel my pain.

All that said, I do own a cowboy hat which is something else you can buy in many gas stations around here.

[Jaepheth]

Also in Texas here.
I cringe when my sister feels the need to remind someone that Texas was once its own country.

My personal policy is that pride/nationalism is a disease. It rarely leads to anything good, and usually only serves to encourage resting on one's laurels (actually resting on other people's laurels more often than not) and prevent working to make things better because things are already so very great!

[biostem]

There's patriotism/national pride, then there's jingoism. It is possible to celebrate your country's history and what it does well, while still recognizing and being critical of its shortcomings.

Obviously, it is also possible for one to become blind to those aspects of your country that *aren't* very good, and to gloss over any misdeeds your country has committed as well.

In short, patriotism/national pride are, much like most positions a person may take on a subject, capable of being practiced in a measured amount or overdone to that person's detriment...

[Ralin]

There is a difference between patriotism and nationalism that is most important to observe (and note that I am only talking about democracies here).

The Patriot takes joy in his country when it does something good, wins at sports or performs some other achievement. He is also acutely aware of the failings of his country and strives to better it. He acknowledges when other countries are better at something and will try to study their methods to better his own society.

The nationalist likewise takes joy in his country because it gives him a sense of superiority, a sense of being better or being part of a better nation than others. He views dispute and reforms as dangerous. He thinks that his self-worth is acutely defined by being a part of his country and thus any attack on his country is an attack on him. He views himself as a citizen of nation X first and as a brother to his human beings second.

In my opinion the first point of view is not wrong. The fine line between it and nationalism is what must never be crossed because that way the end of democracy arises.

I always went with the explanation that patriotism is what I feel and nationalism is what people from other countries feel.

[Thanas]

Why?

[Flagg]

Yay! Due to total chance I was born in Rectumstan! Oh Proud Assholes Are We!

I've never understood patriotism since being old enough to comprehend that something American can be inferior, sometimes drastically so, to something from another nationality. Likely because it's drilled into us from the time we are old enough to understand the TV until we are put in the ground to rot that "America is the greatest country on Earth!" While even cursory research proves that in so many ways we are most assuredly not.

I don't know if that's just a byproduct of the "Cold War", which started decades before my birth, but since unAmerican=bad to this day... It's like a guy with a small dick complex (whether it's truly small or not) constantly boasting about his giant cock because it's almost like he's trying to convince himself as well as everyone else.

[Raw Shark]

Anyway, I've been hearing it for over 20 years if I dare turn on regular TV. It's burned into my soul.

I was right: That's even worse than having the Tetris song stuck in your head.

Tell me you deal with that because I've generally thought of it as Texas Crazy and it would be nice to know others feel my pain.

Brace yourself for disappointment. I lived there for the four years that I refer to variously as, "College," and, "Toon Town," and I think the fact that Vermont was once an independent country came up about twice. I honestly can't even describe its flag from memory (ETA: Yeah, I looked it up, and I was waaaaaaay off). There is, however, a ridiculous 300'-tall stone obelisk commemorating a Revolutionary War victory standing in the town I went to school in (universally referred to as, "The Penis," by my fellow students and I), so there's that. If you polled the population there, I'd wager that more would respond, "Best maple syrup!" rather than, "Was once a republic!" as their #1 point of pride.