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This is just a generalization, but I often hear from people that East Asian countries tend to be far less confrontational in regards to expression of racism than western countries? I do not mean East Asians are somehow less racist than western countries, but how they chose to display such actions in public. For example, if people are uncomfortable with another ethnicity in a number of east Asian countries, people would simply shy away from that person. It is extremely uncommon to find anyone who is willing to directly express any verbal or physical abuse to another stranger on the basis of their ethnicity. Whereas you could get the occasion verbal abuse directed at a stranger on the basis of their ethnicity in the "west". Racism in East Asia seems to be more indirect in approach. People would talk about their negative feelings towards another ethnicity, but only behind their backs.

This is mainly in regards to places like Japan or Korea. You would rarely have a Japanese person coming directly in front of a total stranger and abusing that person in any sense. A big reason I asked this was because this seems to be the main reason why many East Asians traveling to a Western country seems to believe racism is worse in the West than in Asia. The perception that things are worse in the west seems to be a result of how different societies handle their attitude towards self-expression?

Of course, there are numerous occasions where racism was extremely confrontational and violent, notably in Indonesia, Malaysia and etc. But to have Malaysian Chinese commenting that Australia is racist is rather ironic. I think this forum is mature enough to understand that this isn't a contest about
who is more racist, but merely how people displayed such behaviour in public.

Maybe because it is considered impolite to directly confront somebody due to their race? Just going around and confronting people about their race is rather crazy if you think about it.

Plus this is the face of modern racism: it remains unspoken and invisible until it happens. Only the fringe crazy racist will go around in shirts with "white power" printed on them.

In East Asia directly confronting people about anything is simply not common. Expressing your feelings in a vulgar manner can be seen as a loss of face.

However, if people are positive sure their social status will protect them even if they abuse "outsiders" verbally or physically, it can very well happen.

Ah, so it becomes a situation like which is worse

a. The person who believes group X all deserves to die, but is too chickenshit to ever do anything about it or
b. The person who believes group X should be second class citizen but doesn't deserve to die, and is willing to do something to achieve that goal.

In the case of the OP, I would argue if Asians just think it and maybe talk about it behind their back, it would most probably be less disruptive and damaging than confronting someone in the train for example to racially abuse them. The Asian could be thinking even worse than the Westerner for all I know (since I don't have mind reading powers), but if they are only thinking about it, it wouldn't be as damaging.

It's hard to say which of the many forms of racism is worse.

You could have a situation where there is no in-your-face expressions racism, no open confrontations, and so forth but pervasive practices like simply not renting to a particular group, or not hiring a particular group, basically excluding them from society versus a situation where someone is loud about their distaste for a group but might feel that they should be employed (perhaps so they aren't "parasites" and can support themselves) even if out of sight in the back office. Neither situation is desirable, but the latter one it might be easier to survive with a decent standard of living.

I have found that in East Asia, the nationality does not matter as much with workplace discrimination (not getting a job), as it does with family relations (a person marrying a foreigner may be disowned). This is based on what I learned from Japanese and Chinese colleagues. So the society in general might be OK for working, but severely separated in terms of personal relations.

Personally, though, I have faced little discrimination from the locals. Those who came from Ghana to China also seemed to find the locals more accepting than hateful.

I guess it is a situation where blanket statements about an entire culture or nation cannot be really made.

There's also the factor that, until recently, white Christian American males were in a very privileged position in their native land and when traveling elsewhere have sometimes been shocked, shocked, at the bias of other people whereas groups that have been historically oppressed in the US have sometimes found the prejudice towards them in foreign lands to be much the same or even less than back home.

Broomstick wrote:There's also the factor that, until recently, white Christian American males were in a very privileged position in their native land and when traveling elsewhere have sometimes been shocked, shocked, at the bias of other people whereas groups that have been historically oppressed in the US have sometimes found the prejudice towards them in foreign lands to be much the same or even less than back home.

Do you mean bias against the white Christian American males in foreign lands or prejudice in general? Because having lived in China for a few years I can say that I don't get anything resembling the bias I've heard of being applied to other Asians. Or other Chinese for that matter. Hong Kong Chinese in particular tend to view mainland Chinese in much the same way that Americans view Mexicans, and if I ever get long-term work there I expect to have a much, much easier time getting Hong Kong residency than either a mainland Chinese person or someone from Southeast Asia in the same position.

If you see the world in terms of privilege then white privilege absolutely still applies in countries that are predominately not white. And it's not other white people who are maintaining it.

K. A. Pital wrote:I have found that in East Asia, the nationality does not matter as much with workplace discrimination (not getting a job), as it does with family relations (a person marrying a foreigner may be disowned). This is based on what I learned from Japanese and Chinese colleagues. So the society in general might be OK for working, but severely separated in terms of personal relations.

Personally, though, I have faced little discrimination from the locals. Those who came from Ghana to China also seemed to find the locals more accepting than hateful.

I guess it is a situation where blanket statements about an entire culture or nation cannot be really made.

It does seem to me, based on pure anecdotal experience and nothing terribly objective, that racism in East Asia is rarely directed at black people in particular. As you say, there are a lot of business relationships between China and various African countries now, and I've talked to black people who have made the trip and not felt discriminated against at all. However, both China and Japan seem to direct their racism primarily at other Asian ethnicities, especially the Koreans, Mongolians, and various Central Asian peoples.

Ralin wrote:Do you mean bias against the white Christian American males in foreign lands or prejudice in general?

Prejudice in general. People who have never experienced it before tend to be very shocked and outraged when encountering even mild forms of it.

You are correct in noting that white privilege, and male privilege, is in many ways global.

Racism against black people does exist. It is probably centered around other spheres of human activity than just business or trade, but it definetely exists. Then again, I have found the average European country just as, if not more, racist in attitudes.

"I will not rent/sell to an X national" is the most common expression of this. I am not confident enough to completely rule out such discrimination in Asian markets (it is, sadly, pervasive in European ones).

It does seem to me, based on pure anecdotal experience and nothing terribly objective, that racism in East Asia is rarely directed at black people in particular. As you say, there are a lot of business relationships between China and various African countries now, and I've talked to black people who have made the trip and not felt discriminated against at all. However, both China and Japan seem to direct their racism primarily at other Asian ethnicities, especially the Koreans, Mongolians, and various Central Asian peoples.

You can't be all that negative about a race that's a rarely-seen sub-percentage minority in your country, it's just not worth the effort and you'll never get enough of a rise out of your average voter. It's the neighbors you have a problem with, oh yes. Especially those pesky immigrants. Show the very worst you can find among them and then you can get a reaction.
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Serious though, that's how it usually is. Even when it's not actual racism, just mere prejudice (there is a difference* although the two can easily overlap) it's usually about races/peoples/nations with what there is a history with. Racism also comes in a varieties. East Asian countries have their own.

I've heard-- no attestation, this is just general buzz that I've picked up-- that Asians tend to be more racist towards other Asians than they are towards whites or people who are conspicuously more 'foreign' than other Asians, such as blacks or Hispanics. So an African might not receive as much racism in China as a Korean might get, for example.

Is that true?

East asia needs defination.

In Vietnam, it was not uncommon for my wife to be abused in the street by strangers offended she was with a white guy. At the less direct end it might be a man walking up, smiling politely, "hello, hello," in english then, keeping the same tone, turning to my wife and still smiling saying "prostitute" in Vietnamese. At the more direct end would be a guy ranting at her for ten minutes while we were all stuck under a bus stop due to the rain. Anyone that aggresive probably has an in with the local police, so anything i did would result it a fun lot of expensive trouble.

I can say, after the inital shock wore off, i have had nothing but love and welcome from her family, with the only disapprovall being our lack of kids and, quite fairly, my appaling vietnamese. Likewise, when on my own, a tall white guy does not attract any confrontation. It is the sex thing that sets people off.

Broomstick wrote:

Ralin wrote:Do you mean bias against the white Christian American males in foreign lands or prejudice in general?

Prejudice in general. People who have never experienced it before tend to be very shocked and outraged when encountering even mild forms of it.

You are correct in noting that white privilege, and male privilege, is in many ways global.

Men have had the advantage of running everything basically everywhere since time immemorial, so yeah, that translates across global lines.

And while whites may be greatly disliked in some parts of the world, they've shot their way into a dominant position in the global hierarchy... To the point where they get the cultural equivalent of grudging respect in most places. For a country that aspires to more than a reputation as one of the top ten global hellholes, It's not a good thing to get a reputation as a place where it's not safe for white people to travel. Because even now, fifty years or more after decolonialization, a disproportionate number of investors, global opinion-makers, and influential world leaders are still white.

Elheru Aran wrote:I've heard-- no attestation, this is just general buzz that I've picked up-- that Asians tend to be more racist towards other Asians than they are towards whites or people who are conspicuously more 'foreign' than other Asians, such as blacks or Hispanics. So an African might not receive as much racism in China as a Korean might get, for example.

Is that true?

I haven't dealt with it personally, but going off second-hand stuff I'd say it depends on what you're talking about in terms of racism. I've heard of ESL teachers here in China who've had, for example, entire classes of children spontaneously start chanting "Ook ook ook!" when they put a picture of a black person in their PowerPoint slides. I've had a Chinese woman in a bar tell me at great length (without being asked) how much she doesn't like blacks and Pakistanis. But when it comes to actually hating other ethnicities yeah, I see far more of that towards Japanese and to a lesser extent Southeast Asians. The latter likely having to do with the fact that Africans aren't underpaid domestic workers in Hong Kong.

EDIT:

Also from all I've heard when it comes to ESL work being visibly of East Asian descent is actually worse than being black. Chinese parents may fear black people, but they are willing to believe black people can speak English.

Elheru Aran wrote:I've heard-- no attestation, this is just general buzz that I've picked up-- that Asians tend to be more racist towards other Asians than they are towards whites or people who are conspicuously more 'foreign' than other Asians, such as blacks or Hispanics. So an African might not receive as much racism in China as a Korean might get, for example.

Is that true?

More of a historical reason than anything else. Most people have fairly limited contacts with Whites, certainly not beyond the occasional tourist they've met. Blacks might get less outright discrimination in Asia because those that ended up there tends to be from fairly influential background to begin with. You are far more likely to met a Black who is a wealthy businessman from an African state than a poorly educated person trying to "steal the jobs of the blue-collar workers".

But I would say the same could apply to western countries as well. A Korean person appearing in a rural Southern American state is less likely to experience discrimination compared to a Black. Racism does rely on a certain degree of historical context.

I haven't dealt with it personally, but going off second-hand stuff I'd say it depends on what you're talking about in terms of racism. I've heard of ESL teachers here in China who've had, for example, entire classes of children spontaneously start chanting "Ook ook ook!" when they put a picture of a black person in their PowerPoint slides. I've had a Chinese woman in a bar tell me at great length (without being asked) how much she doesn't like blacks and Pakistanis. But when it comes to actually hating other ethnicities yeah, I see far more of that towards Japanese and to a lesser extent Southeast Asians. The latter likely having to do with the fact that Africans aren't underpaid domestic workers in Hong Kong.

This incident about the Chinese women at the bar is what I am talking about. Sure, people might express racist views in public, but they would not directly confront a Black guy or a Pakistani. Having direct confrontation generally seems to be a much bigger social taboo than actually being racist.

ray245 wrote:This incident about the Chinese women at the bar is what I am talking about. Sure, people might express racist views in public, but they would not directly confront a Black guy or a Pakistani. Having direct confrontation generally seems to be a much bigger social taboo than actually being racist.

Well hell dude, I'm from Louisiana and it's still pretty uncommon to tromp up to a black or Hispanic dude in public and start screaming racial epithets and shit. I think that's true most everywhere. If only because most people have better things to do with their time and don't want to risk getting hurt themselves.

I remember awhile back there was an article in some Hong Kong newspaper about a woman of Indian or other South Asian descent who grew up there and had permanent residency and was marrying a local Chinese guy!!! And not just that, she speaks Cantonese even though she isn't Chinese and that was SO AMAZING!!! Like...imagine a newspaper running a piece like that in the US.

Really you should probably specify whether you mean racism in the generally accepted sense of being hostile to members of certain races, having prejudices or buying into stereotypes about given racial and ethnic groups or the whole social justice privilege/systematic power thing.

Hong Kong in general is more racist than other parts of China. This has to do with extreme wealth and a diseased bourgeois culture of supremacy. Basically Japan-lite.

There are certain segments of Hong Kong which display bigotry towards Mainlanders. Heck, if we substitute Jews or Blacks with Mainlander in what some of these people say we would call it bigotry. Of course in Western media its called "pro democracy advocates," because it kind of sounds better than bigots.

It's probably for the best that those Hong Kong 'localists' don't come here to America to lobby for support.

A bunch of hipster welfare chauvinists is guaranteed to be meet with universal bipartisan hatred.

EDIT: It will be interesting to see how they react to rich Filipino tourists dropping in to Hong Kong for the Disneyland and shopping...

While we're sharing anecdotes, there was another story making the rounds a few years ago about two mainland tourists in Hong Kong who let their kid crap on the floor of the subway. When kicked off the parents were reportedly offended, on the grounds that they put some paper under the kid so they don't see what the problem was. By mainland standards this is not an entirely unreasonable argument.

Some of the prejudice Hong Kong Chinese feel toward mainlanders may not be completely unfounded, is what I am saying.

Ralin wrote:While we're sharing anecdotes, there was another story making the rounds a few years ago about two mainland tourists in Hong Kong who let their kid crap on the floor of the subway. When kicked off the parents were reportedly offended, on the grounds that they put some paper under the kid so they don't see what the problem was. By mainland standards this is not an entirely unreasonable argument.

Some of the prejudice Hong Kong Chinese feel toward mainlanders may not be completely unfounded, is what I am saying.

Funny thing is, both myself and Pelranius took effort to distinguish these Hong Kongers with others and not to generalise the entire population of Hong Kong. For example I described them as a segment of HK (and not the whole of HK) and he used the term "localist" to differentiate them from the entirety of HK society of which the majority vote for pro Beijing parties again and again. Your example does not do so.

One example of mainlanders behaving badly (or lets say several examples before someone starts nitpicking) = justified, er I mean not completely unfounded prejudice against mainlanders in general. What ever happened to the ideas of Liberalism, of judging the individual and not their ethnic group.

By all means criticise that mainland family, but it becomes ridiculous when its applied to all of them. If someone said Jews or Blacks were locusts on our society and was called out for racism, I am willing to bet you will never ever in a million years use an example of Israel's actions in the disputed territories or an example of black crime to say "well some of the prejudice against Jews or blacks may not be totally unfounded."

Edit - I chose those examples because people do use those as a cover for their racism
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I will go beyond anecdotal evidence, I will show actual video of how well this certain segment of HK behaves. Doing democracy proud. Like in this Financial times video and BBC one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83wzQpzOEVk

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-31483185

Harassing mainlanders because they buy lots of stuff (BBC video). Or my favourite, someone bitching because Mainlanders have big bags (FT video). I hate to use the term first world problem, but that just fits the bill so perfectly.

Pelranius wrote:It's probably for the best that those Hong Kong 'localists' don't come here to America to lobby for support.

A bunch of hipster welfare chauvinists is guaranteed to be meet with universal bipartisan hatred.

EDIT: It will be interesting to see how they react to rich Filipino tourists dropping in to Hong Kong for the Disneyland and shopping...

They are already quite bigoted against Filipinos. No need to try to predict their reaction.

The US already supports these people and there's no "bipartisan hatred" as the overlap between Hong Kong elitists and pro-democracy activists is quite huge.