StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Firstly, lets just clarify what dialects are and what they are not.

A dialect is not a regional language. I know some Chinese people would refer to Cantonese as a "dialect", however that's most probably not what linguists will consider a dialect. They would consider Cantonese a language with some people using the term regional language. Yes I am aware of Max Weinreich's quote about the difference between a language and a dialect, being an army and a navy. However I think linguists will consider languages as being mutually unintelligible with each other for native speakers. And yes I realise there is a spectrum, for example Swedish and Danish even though they are considered different languages, native speakers can clearly understand each other to a large extent.

Now AFAIK linguists will refer to dialects as similar to an accent with one difference. While accents will focus just on the pronunciation, dialects also have differences in vocabulary. So English spoken in different parts of England aren't just differences in pronunciation, but they use different words, or use words to mean different things than what it usually means in "standard British English." To show you what I mean, just consider the following youtube video talking about English spoken in Liverpool.



For example using words like bizzies (police), kecks (trousers), made up (really happy), cob on (bad mood), bevvy (beverage), scran (food) etc.

My question is, wouldn't that make Liverpool accent, or Mancunian accent, not just an accent, but a dialect as well?

*Are


Anyway, does having your own slang really make it an entirely different dialect? Would the same hold for slang used by different generations? Do young people speak a different dialect from older people?

Slang alone does not a dialect make. Particularly also because it tends to be strongly generational. Who uses the slang their parents used, much less their grandparents'? Now slang can *become* part of a dialect if it sticks around long enough.

And I would be fairly cautious about attributing 'dialects' to English as there is simply so much regional variation, yet they all seem fairly comprehensible to each other unless you get into something ridiculous like heavy Scots or an Appalachian mumble.

Elheru Aran wrote: ↑2017-08-02 11:47amAppalachian mumble.

What is that? Is that like in reference to the deep accent some Mountaineer Americans have?

Joun_Lord wrote: ↑2017-08-02 12:21pm

Elheru Aran wrote: ↑2017-08-02 11:47amAppalachian mumble.

What is that? Is that like in reference to the deep accent some Mountaineer Americans have?

I've heard it referred to as 'mumbling' but that may, again, have been a regional or individual thing. Like... really deep-in-the-mountain regional.

I should note that I don't think there are that many accents in the US which are as difficult for outsiders to understand as there are in the UK, which is reasonable-- the US has only had a few hundred years to develop distinctive accents and there's the whole influx of immigrant language influences to complicate matters...

Joun_Lord wrote: ↑2017-08-02 12:21pm

Elheru Aran wrote: ↑2017-08-02 11:47amAppalachian mumble.

What is that? Is that like in reference to the deep accent some Mountaineer Americans have?

I'd argue that there is a true Appalachian dialect up the mountains/down the holler). It's not just accent ("holler" is actually phonetic for how they say "hollow") but also some different vocabulary and even some sentence constructions. My mother-in-law spoke it as her native English, but like many in her generation she was embarrassed by it and normally only spoke more standard English outside the family (likewise, she didn't speak Cherokee outside the family even though she was fluent in it). You don't hear it often, but most English speakers would need sub-titles to understand it fully at least at first.

Likewise, African-American Vernacular English differs from standard English not only in accent and vocabulary but also some grammatical constructions.

The thing is, it's easy to ignore American dialects outside of standard because they typically have such low social status and the speakers typically hide their use of them outside of family and the like. They do exist, though.

Elheru Aran wrote: ↑2017-08-02 12:50pmI've heard it referred to as 'mumbling' but that may, again, have been a regional or individual thing. Like... really deep-in-the-mountain regional.

What threw me off is I've never heard it called mumbling, I'm assuming thats an "outsider" appellation. There is certainly a regional accent or dialect quite distinct and can be quite hard to understand. I remember moving from the big ol' city of Charleston when I was 6 to Roane county and having to take time to understand some of my new classmates. Then moving to Youngstown after that and my classmates up there having much the same problem with me despite even then my accent being pretty light. How I said some things really confused people there.

Broomstick wrote: ↑2017-08-02 06:23pmI'd argue that there is a true Appalachian dialect up the mountains/down the holler). It's not just accent ("holler" is actually phonetic for how they say "hollow") but also some different vocabulary and even some sentence constructions. My mother-in-law spoke it as her native English, but like many in her generation she was embarrassed by it and normally only spoke more standard English outside the family (likewise, she didn't speak Cherokee outside the family even though she was fluent in it). You don't hear it often, but most English speakers would need sub-titles to understand it fully at least at first.

Likewise, African-American Vernacular English differs from standard English not only in accent and vocabulary but also some grammatical constructions.

The thing is, it's easy to ignore American dialects outside of standard because they typically have such low social status and the speakers typically hide their use of them outside of family and the like. They do exist, though.

That is actually a good point about the different pronunciations. Certainly I can find instances of relatively unique pronunciations compared to non-Appalachians from my own vocabulary such as the manner of pronouncing "bear" like "bure" or pronouncing "Huntington" as "Hunington".

I'd dare say the people of Appalachia are their own cultural minority and one that has been and still is much maligned. Stereotypes and outsider misinformation make people ashamed of their heritage, ashamed of the way they talk, and like so many other cultures before runs the risk of being destroyed before people see its worth.

Also looking through that wiki link you linked, I'm shocked about some of the terms I use relatively frequently not being universal. I thought everyone referred to window shades and shutters as blinds and used coke as a catch all for soda pop.

Joun_Lord wrote: ↑2017-08-02 07:31pmAlso looking through that wiki link you linked, I'm shocked about some of the terms I use relatively frequently not being universal. I thought everyone referred to window shades and shutters as blinds and used coke as a catch all for soda pop.

Out here, we call it all Pop. Back in Masshole Land it's tonic.

And in most of Washington it's "soda".

The Appalachian dialect even changes when you go from North to South in WV. Some of it's cultural, as the Northern part is more Italian, Polish, and Germanic, while the Southern areas got mostly Scots-Irish and 'poor Englishmen'.

I've recently moved to North Carolina, and here they say "Appalachian" weird (to me). Back in western NY, the 3rd 'a' was always long (as in 'hate'), but here it's short (as in 'apple'). Is that just how it's pronounced for Appalachian State University, or have I been pronouncing it "wrong" my whole life?

Appuh-la*-chin.
*same as the lau in laugh.

That is how it was pronounced in Nashville.

Out here in the midwest certain turns of phrase are incomprehensible to them, such as:
More than likely.

houser2112 wrote: ↑2017-08-03 11:12am I've recently moved to North Carolina, and here they say "Appalachian" weird (to me). Back in western NY, the 3rd 'a' was always long (as in 'hate'), but here it's short (as in 'apple'). Is that just how it's pronounced for Appalachian State University, or have I been pronouncing it "wrong" my whole life?

The short "a" is the Appalachian dialect pronunciation. The long "a" is pretty much everyone else. So while actually in Appalachia it's a short "a".

Broomstick wrote: ↑2017-08-03 06:23pm

houser2112 wrote: ↑2017-08-03 11:12am I've recently moved to North Carolina, and here they say "Appalachian" weird (to me). Back in western NY, the 3rd 'a' was always long (as in 'hate'), but here it's short (as in 'apple'). Is that just how it's pronounced for Appalachian State University, or have I been pronouncing it "wrong" my whole life?

The short "a" is the Appalachian dialect pronunciation. The long "a" is pretty much everyone else. So while actually in Appalachia it's a short "a".

Huh... in my neck of the woods it's "Appalatch'n".
And the county of Fayette is "F'aet", the Kanawha River (and county) is "Ka-nah-wah" or "K'naw". (You can always tell when something is a recording or computer-generated voice message here, as they always say "Kan-ah-waa".)