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This seems like a strange question, but I will elaborate why I find this topic interesting. For some reason (of which I am thankful) youtube algorithms recommended me some videos about "Chinese Anime." Which led me to discover some interesting Chinese cartoons. I also saw the term Korean anime bandied about. Now I had always thought anime referred specifically to Japanese cartoons, which tend to have a particular style, rather than cartoons using that particular style. So Last Airbender and Legend of Korra would be not counted. However from research my original definition runs into several problems in the modern market. Namely

1. Co-productions between a Japanese company and a non Japanese one.

For example "There was once a spirit mountain."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congqian_ ... ngjianshan

This was based on a Chinese web novel and was a co production between the Japanese company Studio Deen, and the Chinese software company Ten Cent (which is trying to branch out into other areas).

2. Outsourcing

I have heard it said that some companies outsource some of the animation to other non Japanese companies. Is it still a Japanese production if 10% is done by a non Japanese company? 20%, 49.5% etc. At what point is no longer a Japanese production? What happens if the source material is a non Japanese source (like the above).

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I am starting to think that perhaps the definition of anime should simply include a particular animation style rather than just being a Japanese production.

No comment on cartoons made in other countries, but I do think it's still 'anime' as long as it's originally published in Japan and is at least conceptualized/bankrolled by a Japanese production company.

Having a similar visual style IMO isn't quite enough to call it 'anime' as for one, anime has such a wide variety of visual styles anyway, and two, there are plenty of Western cartoon productions that have similar visuals, but we don't call them 'anime'.

Elheru Aran wrote: ↑2017-09-13 11:26am No comment on cartoons made in other countries, but I do think it's still 'anime' as long as it's originally published in Japan and is at least conceptualized/bankrolled by a Japanese production company.

Having a similar visual style IMO isn't quite enough to call it 'anime' as for one, anime has such a wide variety of visual styles anyway, and two, there are plenty of Western cartoon productions that have similar visuals, but we don't call them 'anime'.

IIRC there never was an "anime style" except maybe in the broadest and vaguest sense possible, there were similar design elements, but no clear unified style, instead each artist decided how and how much to use those common elements.

Lord Revan wrote: ↑2017-09-13 11:54am

Elheru Aran wrote: ↑2017-09-13 11:26am No comment on cartoons made in other countries, but I do think it's still 'anime' as long as it's originally published in Japan and is at least conceptualized/bankrolled by a Japanese production company.

Having a similar visual style IMO isn't quite enough to call it 'anime' as for one, anime has such a wide variety of visual styles anyway, and two, there are plenty of Western cartoon productions that have similar visuals, but we don't call them 'anime'.

IIRC there never was an "anime style" except maybe in the broadest and vaguest sense possible, there were similar design elements, but no clear unified style, instead each artist decided how and how much to use those common elements.

Well, broadly, you can subdivide anime into genres, which tend to have common visual styles. Bishounen, for example. But yes, even then they tend to diverge widely. Trinity Blood wasn't your usual bishie anime, being more of a vampire/horror show, but the artwork was straight-up bishie.

In general though for it to be 'anime' to me, it tends to need to have *some* Japanese origin. Doesn't much matter if it's made in Korea or whatever. That doesn't mean there can't be some overlap, though.

Anime is a word that covers any animation but the word is used to elevate your status as a cartoon viewer over that of normal people. For example, "I don't watch cartoons, I watch anime." As far as I remember, the term "Anime" was just a replacement for "Japanime" as the latter was considered the noun used by uncultured swine so that DBZ fans could feel superior while still watching their "Kamehamehas" and "mah powerlevel" screaming.

More seriously, but not really: Basically, any cartoons with Japanese origins. I'd be careful lumping Koreans and Chinese in with them. First off, the animation and stories tend to differ and you'll also manage to piss off all three groups as there's some history there.

The style doesn't matter since CGI is and has overtaken a lot of traditional animation or use to supplement it. Maybe the stories, but Anime has moved into taking from a lot of western mythology over the year.

Even then, poking around: Castlevania is a Japanese IP, licensed by Canadian company, and beating old western myths and cliches. Why is a Wolverine cartoon made in Japan "anime" but something American done in the same style is a cartoon? I don't know, it just is. Entertainment and its labels are fucking stupid. But they can be useful since if you say "cartoon" you could be talking about anything from "Dora the Explorer" to HBOs "Spawn" but at least I'll have a slightly better idea of what's you're talking about. EDIT: because I can assume it's American, or at least "western."

When I say "that doesn't mean there can't be some overlap" I mean stuff like this:

https://kotaku.com/people-are-saying-th ... 1786185248

If I was catching that randomly on TV or something I probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Obviously if the dialogue is in Korean I wouldn't know (being deaf and all I have to go with the subs anyway), so I'm just going off visual style and subtitles. If it's a strongly... what's the word? the thing where the subs use a lot of Japanese terms rather than the English equivalent? and it used Korean instead, then I could tell I suppose, but I'd probably still think it's 'anime' anyway.

Elheru Aran wrote: ↑2017-09-13 03:53pmIf it's a strongly... what's the word? the thing where the subs use a lot of Japanese terms rather than the English equivalent? and it used Korean instead, then I could tell I suppose, but I'd probably still think it's 'anime' anyway.

Colloquialisms? Or just general translation failures due to not understanding context? I've found this is where anime has done it's work in spades over the years, mostly past 2010. The English VAs are not only just better and able to work with what they are given, the Japanese writers are also prone to using more "adaptable" dialog for translators to work with.

Like, I wish I understood all the ways the Japanese can use "baka." (I'm talking about just from context). Meanwhile, English has multiple specific words for what the Japanese use baka for.

Also of note, "deadpan" delivery has come a long way in both Japanese and English voice work WRT anime. So, as time moves forward and the portability of animation and voice acting work continues to increase, "Anime" will continually lose more of it's importance as a definition for animation.

Still, it's nothing to beat yourself up about. The only reason I pegged, before looking it up, Castlevania as a non-anime was because it was so well animated on all levels and the dialog didn't feel like it had been Japanese first. But if someone called it anime at a glance, I couldn't exactly be all "You Philistine!"

Unlike the late 20th century where anime definitely had a distinct "feel" in nearly all aspects.

TheFeniX wrote: ↑2017-09-13 04:15pmColloquialisms? Or just general translation failures due to not understanding context? I've found this is where anime has done it's work in spades over the years, mostly past 2010. The English VAs are not only just better and able to work with what they are given, the Japanese writers are also prone to using more "adaptable" dialog for translators to work with.

Like, I wish I understood all the ways the Japanese can use "baka." (I'm talking about just from context). Meanwhile, English has multiple specific words for what the Japanese use baka for.

Also of note, "deadpan" delivery has come a long way in both Japanese and English voice work WRT anime. So, as time moves forward and the portability of animation and voice acting work continues to increase, "Anime" will continually lose more of it's importance as a definition for animation.

Still, it's nothing to beat yourself up about. The only reason I pegged, before looking it up, Castlevania as a non-anime was because it was so well animated on all levels and the dialog didn't feel like it had been Japanese first. But if someone called it anime at a glance, I couldn't exactly be all "You Philistine!"

Unlike the late 20th century where anime definitely had a distinct "feel" in nearly all aspects.

I think more like when a sub still includes honorifics or doesn't translate something like dattebayo which doesn't always have a direct translation.

I'm still usually a fan of the Japanese VO and don't mind reading subtitles to get it.

Jub wrote: ↑2017-09-13 06:30pmI think more like when a sub still includes honorifics or doesn't translate something like dattebayo which doesn't always have a direct translation.

Had to google that last one since Naruto is such an unbelievably unwatchable show for me, I only made it like 3-5 episodes in. And I did that because I wanted to see how bad it could get. That said, there ARE ways to translate the intent. They did this and it worked because his "believe it!" line really sold the idea that he's a stupid asshole.

I'm still usually a fan of the Japanese VO and don't mind reading subtitles to get it.

Coin flip for me. Japanese sarcasm and deadpan definitely works in shows like Kill la Kill and One Punch Man with the right VAs. It works today at a level I don't recall it did when I was younger. So, it's either I'm better at reading it or the VAs have become better. Possibly both.

That said, the current crop of English VAs are not the slouches they were in the 20th century where they seemingly just hired people off the street. These are professionals and, seemingly, even fans of the medium so they understand what they are dubbing.

DBZ was a show that was terrible in both areas. None of the VAs (English or Japanese) could convince me their words were actually coming out of a character's mouth. Vegeta and Goku being the worst examples.

TheFeniX wrote: ↑2017-09-13 07:04pmHad to google that last one since Naruto is such an unbelievably unwatchable show for me, I only made it like 3-5 episodes in. And I did that because I wanted to see how bad it could get. That said, there ARE ways to translate the intent. They did this and it worked because his "believe it!" line really sold the idea that he's a stupid asshole.

I don't like that translation much but I see where you're coming from. There are tons of these little things all through translations though and some of them end up in subtitles (especially unofficial ones) which can lead to the artifacts that Elheru uses to tell what the original language was.

Coin flip for me. Japanese sarcasm and deadpan definitely works in shows like Kill la Kill and One Punch Man with the right VAs. It works today at a level I don't recall it did when I was younger. So, it's either I'm better at reading it or the VAs have become better. Possibly both.

That said, the current crop of English VAs are not the slouches they were in the 20th century where they seemingly just hired people off the street. These are professionals and, seemingly, even fans of the medium so they understand what they are dubbing.

DBZ was a show that was terrible in both areas. None of the VAs (English or Japanese) could convince me their words were actually coming out of a character's mouth. Vegeta and Goku being the worst examples.

I'd never call the current crop of dubs bad. I just like the Japanese VO better in many cases and the fact that I can watch the sub half a year before even a fairly speedy dub means I tend to stick to them.

It seems like you didn't like DBZ much so I'm wondering what you think of the sub/dub versions of Super? If you've seen it of course.

Jub wrote: ↑2017-09-13 07:12pmI don't like that translation much but I see where you're coming from. There are tons of these little things all through translations though and some of them end up in subtitles (especially unofficial ones) which can lead to the artifacts that Elheru uses to tell what the original language was.

It's not hard to really translate cultural.... idiosyncrasies? Not if you're willing to try. And companies actually seem to be trying a lot more since I got back into anime, in both the subs and the dubs.

I'd never call the current crop of dubs bad. I just like the Japanese VO better in many cases and the fact that I can watch the sub half a year before even a fairly speedy dub means I tend to stick to them.

I can find myself in the same boat. But there's certain VAs that make me wish I could mix and match my audio dubbing. Such as Colleen Clinkenbeard. Now, something like Fairytail throws me for a loop because the original is great, but the English VAs make me spit coke laughing at some of their delivery. They're really good at what they do.

It seems like you didn't like DBZ much so I'm wondering what you think of the sub/dub versions of Super? If you've seen it of course.

I didn't dislike it. I hated it. But DBZ: Abridged made it worth watching as the voices actually fit the characters a lot better and it cut out all the filler. Also, it's fucking hilarious. And in a show about Monkey-Men kyokenning androids: lay on the comedy. Because even DBZ:A can be intense when it wants to be.

Super has the same issue in one area: the VAs drive me nuts in English and Japanese. Hire the guys from DBZ:Abridged to redub it and I'm in. But... I can't really explain it, but imagine... hey wait, I know a shitty movie that has a scene that explains my feelings: click here (youtube link). That's what DBZ feels like to me.... many times. Arnold with a poorly dubbed redneck voice.

The only anime I've ever cared about was Some Kind of Magical Index. It has a certain charm to it. Also, there's an appearance by Yours Truely. I think they messed some things up, but overall a neat watch. Nothing too hardcore though.

Fukou da~

Aleister Crowley wrote: ↑2017-09-15 02:26am The only anime I've ever cared about was Some Kind of Magical Index. It has a certain charm to it. Also, there's an appearance by Yours Truely. I think they messed some things up, but overall a neat watch. Nothing too hardcore though.

Fukou da~

I have to admit the montage/song played when misaka was at her lowest point in the sisters arc gets me everytime.

Misaka x Touma, accept no substitutes.