Mike Wong's Middle East Essay

[EmperorSolo51]

Before you label me as a Jew or A Christian, I am an Athiest and I will only adress political and historical facts from 1948 and onward

Part I The History and Conflicts
In Mike Wong's essay about the Middle East he makes a ton of statements that are not backed-up with facts and in some cases are half-truths. The First assumption he makes is that becuase Israel is a jewish Nation it is therefore a rascist state. He does not however include the fact that Arab and Druse born Israelis are citizens, Can vote in Elections, can serve in the military, can serve in the Knesset., and run thier own businesses and firms. he then goes into the fact Israelis require cards that tell officials of thier religion. This is actually a pretty good idea, considering most homicide bombers are of the Muslim religion, No sane country that would go under daily attack would consider not doing something like this. Next, he delves into the Idea that Since the Cities in Israel are are so much better economically humanely than Palestinian cities in the West Bank ang Gaza, this is part of the policies of the Aparthied State of Israel. However, again Wong omits the fact that that (A) Israel made these cities become what they are via hard word, dedacation, and sacrifice, turning desert dunes into liveble and (B) THe Plaestinian areas are so poor becuase the PA hordes the money it gets internationally and uses it to finance Arafat's Wife's Vila in Southern France and uses remainder to pay Hamas, Islamic JIhad, Al-Aqsa martyrs Brigade and other terrorist groups, whta he does not pay he keeps for himself and does not use the billions of dollars he recieves to help out the West Bank and Gaza towns, economically or humanely. BTW Why would The Palestinians in the West bank be able allowed to Vote in Israeli Elections when they are not either part of Israel nor are they Israeli citizens. They have thier "Own" government, the PA. HE also says the Palestinians are under "occupation". This another fallicy. Israeli troops only enter both the West Bank and Gaza after major terror attacks like the Homicide Bombers that attack disco techs and pizza parlors. Arafat is more or less in control of the Palestinian controlled areas when there are no Israeli incursions to nab terrorists.

Mike Wong then claims That Israel's defensive wars are not defensive but offensive. He has not backed this up with any evidence.

1947 Partition Plan: The Jews Would recieve the Strip from Haifa to Tel-Aviv, The area around the Lake Tiberias (Sea of Gallilee), and much of the Negev. The palestinians would recieve Gaza plus a buffer area between Egypt and the Negev, a plot of land between Gallillee and the Haifa, plus all of the West Bank inclunding Arab towns of Nazraeth, Tulkarem, Ramle, Hebron and Jewish Kibbutzim. Even though the UN accepted this plan as did Jewish leader Jews in palestine, David Ben Gurion. All the Arab countries, Egypt, Transjordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi arabia, etc voted no on the resolution and vowed to drive all Jews into the sea. After the UN voted on this plan, Arabs living in Palestine were directed by Haj Amin Al-Huesseni, a World War II war criminal who had raised a division of Arabs for Hitlers SS to be used against the Soviet Union in World War II, to attack Jewish Kibbitzum (sort like a Soviet Collective farm, but not really as they are privatly owned) and Jews living cities across Palestine and drive the Jews into the sea. the Arabs began to attack Jews throughout Palestine and Jews were hampered by British i retaliating. This would start a chain of events that would kill roughly 1 percent of all Jews living in Palestine

1948 War: Mike Wong in his essay claims that Israe made gains and enlarged it's territory after the '48 war. Wong Also fails to mention that the Arab armies from Jordan , Iraq, Syeria, and Egypt invaded the Jewish areas on May 15th, 1948, 24 Hours after Israel declred statehood. Leaders like the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, the King Abdullah, and King Faruq of Egypt told Arabs to leave Plaestine so that they would not get caught in the cross fire as they they made thier way into Israel. Mike Wong also says that Israel conquered more land and was alloted to them. Yes, This is true, however Israel was faced with anhaililation, and the only to get peace was to get defeat the Arab Armies and take and hold whatever land the IDF was able to. Due to Arab commanders Ineptness and stupidity, plus poor and inadequate Troops fielded. Israel was able to make the gains they did. Mike Wong does not blame the Jordanians and Egyptians for annexing Gaza and West Bank and does not ask the Arb nations would not allow the palestinians to be independent during thier rule over Palestine?

1967: MIke Wong ignores the fact Israel had Causes Beli to go to war with Syria and Egypt becuase (1) Egypt in may of 1967 began to make threats to Israel and began to to mobilize it's armis on the Sinai-Negev Region. (2) Egypt had an illegal blockade of the straits of Tiran that violated the geneva conventions on the subject of Naval Blockades. (3) Syria was using the Golan hieghts toShell innoncent Israelis living on Kibbutzum. Israel on June 6th went to war with the Egyptians and Syrians by attacking thier airforces and destroying them on the ground and followed up with ground Campaign. On June 6th, Prime Minister Levi Eshkol asked King Abdullah of Jordan if Jordan would stay out of the conflict, he was given a response a day later, by Jordanians shelling West Jerusalem, and Jordanian troops entering the New city. Israel then decalared war on Jordan and Israeli troops repulsed the Jordanians and invaded the West Bank. 6 Days later, the Israelis had defeated the Arab armies again, and the road to Amman, Cairo, and Damscus was open to the Israelis, but UN the USSR, and USA intervened and the Israelis were given, the Sinai, West Bank and Gaza, and the Sinai. The Israelis Annexed The Sinai and the Golan Hieghts to protect Israel from fure attack, But did NOT attempt to annex either the West Bank and Gaza

In 1970, Israel was going to Return parts of the West Bank and Gaza to Jordan in what was called the Allon Plan: http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/allonplan.html , However the Jordanians refused becuase the PLO had almost overthrown thier nation in september and were not about to add more Palestinians to thier nation.

the 1973 War: Mike Wong claims that Egypt and Syria were fighting to get thier land back. This was partially true. In 1972, Anwar Sadat began to make threats to the United States and Israel that war would result of niether nation accepted his interpreation of UN resolution 242. He wanted the USSR to bear pressure on the US, but the USSR wanted to bring about more a warmer relationship with the Nixon administration and start a Dente. Sadat threatned war during an interview in 1973 but he was dissmissed becuase he made threats in earlier years. This was a near fatal mistake. On October 6th Egypt and Syria attack Israel of Yom Kippur after Israel dismmised Egyptian military build-up on the the Suez. Israel was caught off guard on both fronts. Despite intial gains by the Arabs, by the 17th of october, the Israelis had once again smashed the Arab Armies on both the Syrian and the Sinai. The United States and the USSR pressured Israel to accept a UN Cease-fire on the 22nd before taking Cairo and Damascus.

1978: Camp David peace accords
First off any moron with a computer can do a google search on camp david and find out that Camp David is named for DWight Eisenhower's Son David. Second, Israel has given near complete autonomy to the West Bank and Gaza, but the Corrupt Arafat regime allows Homicide-Bombers to blow up Israeli civilians. The Israelis invaded Lebanon after a Tourist bus was hijacked by PLO terrorist from bases in Lebanon.

1982: Lebanon Invasion.
Actually what preciptated the Israeli invasion of Lebanon was the assiniation of the Israeli Ambassador to Great Britain , by the famed terrorist Abu Nidal and his Terrorist Organization based in what country? You guessed it, Lebanon! The PLO had also used the country as base for terrorist operations into israel. The Christians of Lebanon were abused, Homes were taken by PLO terrorists, Women and little boys were raped. That is why Israel invaded. The attacks at Sabra and Shatilla, were done by Maronite Christians who were getting thier revenge on the Palestinians for thier deeds in lebanon. Ariel Sharon did let the Maronite Christians through Israeli lines and he was punished accordingly and was also tried in an Israeli court.

2000: This intifadah was started bexcuase Arafat could not get his way. That's right!. Arafat was offered 97% of the West Bank and Gaza and East Jerusalem as his capital at camp david in 2000, And What does he do? he Rejects and encourages the palestinians to revoltagainst the Israelis and attack Israeli civilians instead of attacking military targets. Thus, begins the terrorist acts of Hamas and Islamic Jihad using homicide bombing attacks on Passover Satyrs, A young girl's Bat Mitzvah, Disco-techs and pizza resturaunts. Mike Wong makes the audacity! The Audacity to make a moral equivilency between Homicide-Bombers and Accidental Palestinian deaths by the IDF. That is insane!

2001: Mike, Did the CBC ever run those pictures of Palestinians in the West Bank rejoycing after the 2 Planes slammed into the WTC on Sept. !!? No, These people at the start of the year glorified Homicide-Bombers, The PA gave money to people who kill inncocent civilians and only now are they relizing that killing civilians and attacking via homicide-bombings is no way to fight and are beggining to acceot peace. The latest agreement signed a few weeks ago should be a testmount to that

[Mr Bean]

Rather than smash your aurgmants I'll leave that happy duity to Mike as it seems he's the one you want to respond back

I'll turn his over to him now

As for the rest of you lets watch the fun eh? (And yes that can be taken EITHER way )

[Lagmonster]

Full marks for gusto, kid, but you're metaphorically getting out of the safari jeep and kicking the lions. Guess what that means, metaphorically?

[ArmorPierce]

I would like to see Mike crush this guy. Hopefully sometime today so thaat I don't need to wait that long.

[Bryan]

Solo makes good points.

[Steve]

*sigh*

Well, methinks EmpSolo gets points for trying, but this isn't gonna be pretty.

Some of the differences between Mike and some of the pro-Israeli people are predominately differences of ideology and outlook. For instance, Mike and Marina O'Leary; Mike has little appreciation for legalism and is a believer in morality above such things, while I can tell you from experience that Marina is a very legalistic-minded individual and ultimately someone who keeps morality out of diplomacy, preferring national interest (perceived or otherwise) to what is "right".

I have to deal with this mentality every day in The Great Game and Marina's oh-so-lovable (or not) Ottoman Star Empire. *groan* I swear to God if I hear "Casus Belli" or "maintaining the sanctity of the Nation-State" one more damned time....

Speaking of that, Emppy, you should try establishing relations with the NAA and Bryan's Holy Terran Empire, they are close to you and they're the predominant bloc-builders in that region of the map.

.... Yes, I used a post here to remark on a game we have going on at Spacebattles, sue me.

I think I will, especially considering that I tried to join and recieved zero assistance in getting acclimated. Posers.
--Pablo

[Steve]

Pablo; we all have jobs ourselves. Besides, didn't you want that ultrahegemonistic alien empire?

Besides, we usually help players acclimate in private conversations on AIM or ICQ, which you didn't post your contact info for.

[Next of Kin]

Wow you truly are delusional Solo!

Where to be begin pick apart your post? This will be like shooting fish in a barrel![/quote]

[Azeron]

Might I add that the blockade of the striats of Tiran was an act of war PERIOD. Therefore in every respect Isreal was activing defensivly to the aggression of the UAR (United Arab Republic) or Syria and Eygpt.

A factual error I see, Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion had resigned several years before the 1967 war, around 1963 if I recall. But otherwise its correct.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Pablo; we all have jobs ourselves. Besides, didn't you want that ultrahegemonistic alien empire?

What's wrong with that?

Besides, we usually help players acclimate in private conversations on AIM or ICQ, which you didn't post your contact info for.

I do not use Instant Messengers, because they displease me.

[Wicked Pilot]

Might I add that the blockade of the striats of Tiran was an act of war PERIOD. Therefore in every respect Isreal was activing defensivly to the aggression of the UAR (United Arab Republic) or Syria and Eygpt.

Yeah, just like when the Soviets cut off access to West Berlin after WWII. It's a good thing we went to war with them and smashed those communist bastards into small peices.

Oh wait. That didn't happen. Sorry, my mistake.

[MKSheppard]

Yeah, just like when the Soviets cut off access to West Berlin after WWII. It's a good thing we went to war with them and smashed those communist bastards into small peices.

Oh wait. That didn't happen. Sorry, my mistake.

Plans were being made for a ground invasion of East Germany to
relieve West Berlin.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Plans were being made for a ground invasion of East Germany to relieve West Berlin.

You are correct, but you miss the point and overestimate that plan. The ground invasion was not going to be an all out surprise attack on East Germany, the USSR, and all Soviet Allies; as the Israeli response was.

As for the point, it is this: The USA used an airlift, and thereby avoided total war. The Israelis invaded every Arab state within reach in order to end a fairly minor blockade (that's their excuse, anyway).

[The Yosemite Bear]

And as well armed as those "Commie Bastards" had their conventional forces and as much Nuclear forces they had what would have happened?

Basicly if we went by what's right every single head of state could be hanged under the Neurenburg code. Then we would have anarchy. Is that what the Ivory Tower types like Chomsky and his ilk want?

[Wicked Pilot]

Before you label me as a Jew or A Christian, I am an Athiest

Yet you have a religious symbol on your avatar and you said you want to join the America First Party.

Want more, check out this: http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... post735899

I smell bullshit. And it smells bad.

[Azeron]

Talk about bullshit, you smell like you have been sitting in it all day. Might I add that the air corridor was never shutoff, and the train routes weren;t really shut off either. THe soviets demanded that the trains be inspected. Whne we refused. they shut it off. I am not sure whether that was apart of any offical treaty on whether Soviets could actually do that. However we did have a treaty which stated that we could fly over East germany to Berlin.

I can't seem to find any reference to the Geneva convention or any established protocol regarding off sealing off your borders to an enemy state can be interpeted as an act of war. If you can find it, please reference it to me.

Isreali waters and ports have a right to be unmolested by any forigen power, espeically hostile ones. The waters that the UAR (eygpt and syria) occupied were leagal Isreali waters. Hence its an act of war. Isreal has the full right under international law to respond to such an aggression in the way it should find apprpriate.

[EmperorSolo51]

Before you label me as a Jew or A Christian, I am an Athiest

Yet you have a religious symbol on your avatar and you said you want to join the America First Party.

Want more, check out this: http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... post735899

I smell bullshit. And it smells bad.

I have the Israeli flag as an avatar to show my solidarity with the Israeli people. And I after reviewing the AFP site even further I have decided not to join and stick with the Republican party. Do you have anything constructive to say?

[Pablo Sanchez]

And as well armed as those "Commie Bastards" had their conventional forces and as much Nuclear forces they had what would have happened?

In 1946 only the USA had nukes. In all probability our conventional attack would have been repulsed with severe losses on both sides and the Soviets storming West Berlin, and then we would have

A) Dropped the bomb.
B) Negotiated a settlement.

[Wicked Pilot]

Do you have anything constructive to say?

Yeah, you're a fucking liar. I think I showed that quite clearly.

[Wicked Pilot]

Hence its an act of war. Isreal has the full right under international law to respond to such an aggression in the way it should find apprpriate.

If they wanted to end the blockade they would have simply attacked and destroyed the Egyptian ships. They were perfectly capable of doing it. The demonstrated this capablilty fairly well when they attacked the USS Liberty in international waters. They sure proved their military might when their aircraft shot rockets at it. Even better when they napalmed the deck. Oh yes, it was quite impressive when the Israeli torpedo boats came along a fired 50 caliber machine guns at sailors trying to help the wounded. And to top off their military demonstration, they torpedo the Liberty and sank and/or captured all her life rafts. They must be proud of themselves. Killing 34 unarmed U.S. servicemen is a feat in itself.

For those of you who don't believe me: http://www.ussliberty.org

[EmperorSolo51]

Do you have anything constructive to say?

Yeah, you're a fucking liar. I think I showed that quite clearly.

how am i a liar?

[EmperorSolo51]

Hence its an act of war. Isreal has the full right under international law to respond to such an aggression in the way it should find apprpriate.

If they wanted to end the blockade they would have simply attacked and destroyed the Egyptian ships. They were perfectly capable of doing it. The demonstrated this capablilty fairly well when they attacked the USS Liberty in international waters. They sure proved their military might when their aircraft shot rockets at it. Even better when they napalmed the deck. Oh yes, it was quite impressive when the Israeli torpedo boats came along a fired 50 caliber machine guns at sailors trying to help the wounded. And to top off their military demonstration, they torpedo the Liberty and sank and/or captured all her life rafts. They must be proud of themselves. Killing 34 unarmed U.S. servicemen is a feat in itself.

For those of you who don't believe me: http://www.ussliberty.org

Both the United States Government and the Israeli government acknowledge it was an accident. THe attack should have never happend, but it was a mistake.

[Wicked Pilot]

Both the United States Government and the Israeli government acknowledge it was an accident. The attack should have never happend, but it was a mistake.

Tell that to the survivors. Ask them how Israeli reconissance planes, fighters, and torpedo boats mistaked a clearly marked U.S. surviellence ship as an old Egyptian horse freighter one quarter it's size.

Did I also mention that the captain of the U.S.S. Liberty was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor for his actions during the incident. Unlike all the other winners before him and since, he did not get to receive his medal in the White House by the president himself. No, he got his in a small ceremony in a back room on a naval base, and it wasn't by the president.

[Azeron]

USAF, didn;t I provide detail on that particular attack in a pervious thread regarding the legitmacey of isreal as a nation? didn't I even tell you the ships name and the year it occured in? So why are you acting like i HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF THIS, WHEN I AM THE ONE WHO TOLD YOU IN THE FIRST PLACE!!

I think that isreal did it on purpose, to keep the World from knowing what was going to happen in the 1967 war which abotu to flare up. (it was an electronic reconiscence ship)

what ever happens between the US and Isreal, is between US and isreal, and is not binding on any other situation. If we had chosen to attack isreal, we would have been within our rights. But we didn't, and thats histroy.

Alright suppose they attacked the ships with fighter jets, what would happen then? The war still would have happened. OS there is nothing advantageous to provide a limited response. The response was isreali's and isrealis alone to make. the UAR provoked, and the isrealis decided it was time to rumble wit hthe army that had bee massing at its borders for a year with the intention to kill all the jews in isreali!!!

So yes it was defensive for isreal in revery way. It seems when ever jews didn;t decide to jump in to an oven or a gas chamber at thier murder's request, they are deemed the aggressors by this crowd.

Do you know what "Never Again" means to the jewish people? I can sympathize with a people who have been through such horrendous times. I can;t sympathize with the arab aggressors.

[Darth Wong]

Before you label me as a Jew or A Christian, I am an Athiest and I will only adress political and historical facts from 1948 and onward

Cute. By eliminating the terrorist methods Israel used in order to grab its territory in the first place, you attempt to remove some of the most important evidence of both its hypocrisy and its crimes.

BTW, the fact that you are not a Christian does not mean you haven't bought into right-wing rhetoric and sophistry.

The First assumption he makes is that becuase Israel is a jewish Nation it is therefore a rascist state. He does not however include the fact that Arab and Druse born Israelis are citizens, Can vote in Elections, can serve in the military, can serve in the Knesset., and run thier own businesses and firms.

The same could have been said of blacks in America in 1950. Was America not a racist state at the time, with Jim Crow laws designed to ensure permanent segregation and marginalization of the black population?

You obviously use a ridiculously strict definition of "racist state" in which anything short of Nazism is not considered racist. Anything to uphold your pre-ordained conclusion, I suppose.

he then goes into the fact Israelis require cards that tell officials of thier religion. This is actually a pretty good idea, considering most homicide bombers are of the Muslim religion,

And the fact that it violates their human rights is no big deal to you, eh? BTW, wherefore the term "homicide bomber?" What kind of bombing is not homicide? When Israel fires rockets at civilian police buildings, bulldozes Palestinian homes, and shells schools, is that not homicide bombing?

Next, he delves into the Idea that Since the Cities in Israel are are so much better economically humanely than Palestinian cities in the West Bank ang Gaza, this is part of the policies of the Aparthied State of Israel. However, again Wong omits the fact that that (A) Israel made these cities become what they are via hard word, dedacation, and sacrifice

Not to mention billions of dollars every year in American aid, and Palestinian labourers who are paid starvation wages and treated like dirt, because they live in the so-called "occupied territories".

turning desert dunes into liveble and (B) THe Plaestinian areas are so poor becuase the PA hordes the money it gets internationally and uses it to finance ...

Interesting argument. So Palestinian poverty is due entirely to the fact that international aid money is supposedly being squandered? That does not explain why they need international aid money in the first place, does it? Do you even try to think logically? What economic effect would it have on your average American city to periodically demolish the infrastructure, not to mention bulldozing thousands of homes without compensating the owners for their losses, segmenting the city into pieces so that the flow of goods and services is hopelessly disrupted, and severely restricting the use of such necessities as water and electricity while continuing to collect taxes?

BTW Why would The Palestinians in the West bank be able allowed to Vote in Israeli Elections when they are not either part of Israel nor are they Israeli citizens.

Then why are Jews in the West Bank allowed to vote in Israeli elections, even though they are not living in Israel either? Don't you get it? It's apartheid, cleverly hidden under the legal sophistry of calling them "occupied territories" instead of "part of Israel where race determines rights".

They pay taxes, they live under Israeli control and Israeli laws, and their water and electricity are rationed by Israel. They are subjects of Israel, but they have no input. This is simply wrong. No taxation without representation, remember?

They have thier "Own" government, the PA.

Which has no real power. Israel collects the taxes and then decides how much of that money to dole back to the PA. Israel controls the flow of water and electricity. The PA is nothing but a sacrificial lamb, to absorb criticism from both sides while being neutered at the source so it can't do anything.

HE also says the Palestinians are under "occupation". This another fallicy. Israeli troops only enter both the West Bank and Gaza after major terror attacks like the Homicide Bombers that attack disco techs and pizza parlors. Arafat is more or less in control of the Palestinian controlled areas when there are no Israeli incursions to nab terrorists.

Riiiight. And the fact that Israel collects taxes, rations water, etc. does not enter into your little world? The Palestinians are under occupation. If they were independent, they would be managing their own affairs (which also means they wouldn't be giving massively preferential treatment to invasive Jewish settlements in their midst).

Mike Wong then claims That Israel's defensive wars are not defensive but offensive. He has not backed this up with any evidence.

No evidence? First you were being asinine, but now you're being an asshole by lying. I provided plenty of evidence (even admissions of guilt from the people directly involved).

<snip long-winded party line about formation of Israel>

Now I see why you insisted that you won't discuss anything before 1948. This way, you get to tell the story of the formation of Israel while leaving out the parts which are inconvenient to your position. It's always a bad sign when someone has to selectively cite evidence in order to support his position.

1948 War: Mike Wong in his essay claims that Israe made gains and enlarged it's territory after the '48 war. Wong Also fails to mention that the Arab armies from Jordan , Iraq, Syeria, and Egypt invaded the Jewish areas on May 15th, 1948, 24 Hours after Israel declred statehood.

Wrong. I mentioned that, but unlike you, I also described the backstory (you know, all that nasty stuff the Israelis did before this point), so you can see why they attacked. I can see that you are obviously a fan of the "make the opponent look dishonest even if you have to resort to strawman distortions" technique.

Mike Wong also says that Israel conquered more land and was alloted to them. Yes, This is true, however Israel was faced with anhaililation, and the only to get peace was to get defeat the Arab Armies and take and hold whatever land the IDF was able to.

"We need living space- Adolf Hitler".

Mike Wong does not blame the Jordanians and Egyptians for annexing Gaza and West Bank and does not ask the Arb nations would not allow the palestinians to be independent during thier rule over Palestine?

Ah, so when Israel takes territory (to create a racial apartheid state, no less), it's perfectly justifiable, but when neighbouring Arab countries do it (in the face of an aggressive expansionist state with massive foreign military support), they're just being violent? Methinks you've got one side mixed up with the other.

1967: MIke Wong ignores the fact Israel had Causes Beli ...

Yadda yadda yadda legalistic bullshit. Something is either right or wrong; if you cannot justify it with anything other than the letter of the law, then you have lost sight of the forest for the trees.

BTW:

"In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him." Menahem Begin (from "The Fateful Triangle", Noam Chomsky)

"I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it."- Yitzhak Rabin (Israel's Chief of Staff during the Six Day War), February 28, 1968

Egypt had an illegal blockade of the straits of Tiran that violated the geneva conventions on the subject of Naval Blockades.

I suppose the irony of invoking the Geneva Convention in defense of Israel (which has spent the last 50 years pissing on it by violating every rule for the treatment of occupied territories and ignoring countless UN demands to cease and desist) doesn't occur to you.

Syria was using the Golan hieghts toShell innoncent Israelis living on Kibbutzum.

"We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot ... And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was...The Syrians, on the fourth day of the war, were not a threat to us."- Moshe Dayan, the Defense Minister who gave the order to conquer the Golan Heights, quoted from the NY Times, May 11, 1997.

In 1970, Israel was going to Return parts of the West Bank and Gaza to Jordan in what was called the Allon Plan: http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/allonplan.html , However the Jordanians refused becuase the PLO had almost overthrown thier nation in september and were not about to add more Palestinians to thier nation.

Ahh, the Allon plan. You forgot to mention that it mandated the forcible removal of much of Gaza's Arab population, as well as massive Jewish settlement in the Eastern half of the Judean and Samaritan mountains. It also maintained the need for "Greater Jerusalem" and would have kept up to 40% of the West Bank in Israeli hands. It was not a deal or a compromise; it was Israel's way of unilaterally deciding where the borders should be, based on its own interests. The idea was to realign Israeli territory to give them a better tactical position with respect to the mythical Arab military hordes (which have never really amounted to anything, even to this day) while squeezing Arabs out of the territory they wanted to keep and shoving them all into a piece of the West Bank that they would then hand over to Jordan.

the 1973 War: Mike Wong claims that Egypt and Syria were fighting to get thier land back. This was partially true. In 1972, Anwar Sadat began to make threats to the United States and Israel that war would result of niether nation accepted his interpreation of UN resolution 242. He wanted the USSR to bear pressure on the US, but the USSR wanted to bring about more a warmer relationship with the Nixon administration and start a Dente. Sadat threatned war during an interview in 1973 but he was dissmissed becuase he made threats in earlier years. This was a near fatal mistake. On October 6th Egypt and Syria attack Israel of Yom Kippur after Israel dismmised Egyptian military build-up on the the Suez. Israel was caught off guard on both fronts. Despite intial gains by the Arabs, by the 17th of october, the Israelis had once again smashed the Arab Armies on both the Syrian and the Sinai. The United States and the USSR pressured Israel to accept a UN Cease-fire on the 22nd before taking Cairo and Damascus.

You honestly believe the Israeli sheep were caught unawares and unsuspecting by the Mighty Arab Hordes? That's the dumbest thing I've heard all day.

1978: Camp David peace accords First off any moron with a computer can do a google search on camp david and find out that Camp David is named for DWight Eisenhower's Son David.

So? How does that change the fact that the name "David" was most famous for belonging to a legendary Arab-killer? I know a mechanic named Adolf, but if I decided to hold talks with a local Jewish group and call it "Camp Adolf", that would mean something, wouldn't it?

Second, Israel has given near complete autonomy to the West Bank and Gaza, but the Corrupt Arafat regime allows Homicide-Bombers to blow up Israeli civilians.

Bullshit. Israel has never given anything remotely resembling any form of autonomy to the West Bank and Gaza. Palestinians live on rationed water which is inadequate for daily baths while Jewish settlers in the same occupied territories play in water fountains.

The Israelis invaded Lebanon after a Tourist bus was hijacked by PLO terrorist bus near the Israeli-Lebanese borders

The Israelis have a number of excuses they use for their campaign of aggressive annexation. In reality, they had already been fighting a proxy war in Lebanon through the use of Christian militias which they had been supplying with weapons for years. Of course, any violent actions as a result of this behaviour were completely unprovoked, and served as legitimate justification for invasion and conquest, right?

1982: Lebanon Invasion. Actually what preciptated the Israeli invasion of Lebanon was the assiniation of the Israeli Ambassador to Great Britain , by the famed terrorist Abu Nidal and his Terrorist Organization based in what country? You guessed it, Lebanon!

I'm fully aware of that bullshit justification. An Israeli ambassador was assassinated (not in Israel) by a group which happened to be operating out of Lebanon, so they used that as an excuse to commit an act of war and invade the country? By that token, if a terrorist group operates out of Germany, the US can bomb Germany (oh, wait; that's exactly how Georgie boy thinks, isn't it?).

The rest of the world figured out the folly of that thinking in WW1; the death of a dignitary does not justify the bombing (or "homicide bombing", to use your language) of thousands of civilians, or the annexing of large amounts of territory for indefinite periods of time.

The PLO had also used the country as base for terrorist operations into israel. The Christians of Lebanon were abused, Homes were taken by PLO terrorists, Women and little boys were raped. That is why Israel invaded. The attacks at Sabra and Shatilla, were done by Maronite Christians who were getting thier revenge on the Palestinians for thier deeds in lebanon.

Like most Israel-apologists, you conveniently neglect to mention the numbers of people killed on either side, so as to make it appear as if there was parity.

Ariel Sharon did let the Maronite Christians through Israeli lines and he was punished accordingly and was also tried in an Israeli court.

Bullshit. He was not punished accordingly. He was never imprisoned even one day for that massacre, classified as a crime against humanity and a genocidal act by the UN.

2000: This intifadah was started bexcuase Arafat could not get his way. That's right!. Arafat was offered 97% of the West Bank and Gaza and East Jerusalem as his capital at camp david in 2000, And What does he do?

Bullshit. He was offered a lame-duck state in which Israel would still control his every action. Note the conditions:

1. No Palestinian army
2. No Palestinian right to make alliances without Israeli approval
3. Israeli retains control over Palestinian airspace
4. Israeli retains the right to deploy troops in Palestinian territory at their disgression
5. Israeli retains the right to build military bases and facilities in Palestinian territory at their disgression.
6. Israel would control Palestinian border crossings not just at the common border, but also at Palestine's borders with Jordan and Egypt.
7. Israel would continue to control the water supply in Palestine and allow Palestinians to get water only on strict rationing plans, just as it is now.

So what does it mean when Arafat "gets" 97% of the West Bank, since he doesn't actually gain anything resembling full control or sovereignty over this land? He wouldn't even have control over his own water! By the way, your figure is pure bullshit; it was 73%, not 97%. And worse yet, it would have been split in half, with an Israeli "corridor" running right down the middle and Israeli soldier strictly controlling the ability of Palestinians to move about.

So how was this offer any different than the status quo? Answer: It wasn't. It was a bullshit offer, designed to fool sheep like you into thinking that the Israelis are serious about negotiation. Under this plan, the Palestinians would have no sovereignty, no control over their own borders, no freedom to move about in their own territory, no control over their own airspace or water supplies, etc.

The plan was designed to nibble away at Palestinian land by reducing it to three quarters of what it was, packing the Palestinians into a reduced area (while "graciously" allowing up to 100,000 refugees to return home, so that they could claim to fulfill the "right of return" in meagre fractions, but not enough for the the refugees to alter the voting demographics).

he Rejects and encourages the palestinians to revoltagainst the Israelis and attack Israeli civilians instead of attacking military targets.

As the Israelis had done for decades, by bulldozing thousands of homes, shooting protesters for throwing rocks, etc.

Thus, begins the terrorist acts of Hamas and Islamic Jihad using homicide bombing attacks on Passover Satyrs, A young girl's Bat Mitzvah, Disco-techs and pizza resturaunts. Mike Wong makes the audacity! The Audacity to make a moral equivilency between Homicide-Bombers and Accidental Palestinian deaths by the IDF. That is insane!

Hardly. 10 Palestinians die for every Israeli, and many of those Palestinians are children. Just last month, an Israeli tank opened fire with its coax machine gun into a shopping area with no provocation whatsoever. One unarmed man was shot to death along with his daughter while sitting in his car. The IDF classified that as an "accident" too. TV news footage showed terrified civilians running in every direction as the gunfire continued.

2001: Mike, Did the CBC ever run those pictures of Palestinians in the West Bank rejoycing after the 2 Planes slammed into the WTC on Sept. !!?

Yes. I've seen that footage. So what? People who live in misery are not liable to feel a great deal of sympathy for those who are supplying weapons to their oppressors.

No, These people at the start of the year glorified Homicide-Bombers,

So? You glorify the IDF, and you're actually stupid enough to buy their bullshit about how every one of the hundreds of Palestinian civilians killed by the IDF is just an "accident".

The fact that you have to distort the facts in order to make your point is proof that you have no point to make.