9mm Luger or .45 ACP?

[Sir Sirius]

Inspired by some of the arquments from the "Military Logic at work" thread.

Which is better the 9mm Luger (AKA. 9mm Parabellum and 9x19) or the .45 ACP(AKA. .45 Automatic Colt Pistol and .45 Auto)?

[Vympel]

I have no idea. I don't shoot pistols. But I always thought parabellum is the more common name for the 9x19mm round.

Heck, 9x19mm must have something going for it. When the Russkies abandon 9x18mm (Makarov) and go over to Parabellum (the new standard pistol, PYa, uses the 9x19mm cartridge), along with every other bloody country on the planet, it must have some advantages.

[Sir Sirius]

But I always thought parabellum is the more common name for the 9x19mm round.

It used to be, but Luger is for some reason becoming more popular now.

[Glocksman]

Heck, 9x19mm must have something going for it. When the Russkies abandon 9x18mm (Makarov) and go over to Parabellum (the new standard pistol, PYa, uses the 9x19mm cartridge), along with every other bloody country on the planet, it must have some advantages.

The parabellum does have certain advantages.

1. Commonality. Most every major power uses it.
2. Lower recoil than the .45 ACP
3. Lighter weight. You can carry more ammo.
4. Smaller diameter allows double stack magazines to be used in pistols that can be properly held by people with normal sized hands.


The .45 ACP has a few advantages as well.

1. Larger diameter bullet combined with increased bullet weight gives increased stopping power over 9mmP rounds when using FMJ military ammo.
2. Former US military standard. Ammo is easy to obtain (within the US).


For civilian self defense use, I'd probably go with a quality 9mm pistol and preban hi capacity magazines loaded with Federal 9mm Hydra-Shok 124gr. ammo.

If you're not recoil sensitive and like a little more stopping power per round, the .45 ACP Hydra-Shok load has about a 90% one shot stop rate if you go by the Marshall-Sanow statistics.


If I couldn't use hollowpoint ammo, I'd choose the .45 hands down over the 9mm.

[nechronius]

Having a fondness for the art of pistol craft, I'd like to point out a couple of things.

Parabellum simply means "for war."

9mm Luger is also popular and interchangeable. I'm not positive about the "Luger" part, but I believe it is because it was the first pistol (or well known pistol) to chamber this caliber. A buddy of mine has an 8 shot Luger and it's certainly an interesting pistol.

The argument of 9mm vs. .45 ACP has been raging ever since the US military replaced the venerable 1911 in .45 ACP with the Beretta 92F series pistol back in the 80's. It seems like most debates/arguments/shouting matches are usually fueled by emotion rather than logical thought.

Obvoiusly the .45 ACP carries more energy behind each bullet. Or does it? I'm not intimately familiar with the standard US military loading but I think the specs are a 230 grain bullet fired at about 870 fps. The 9mm specification is for a 124 grain bullet with 1250 fps. If you use the equation for kinetic energy (KE=.5mv^2) you find that the "wonder nine" actually delivers more energy than the .45 ACP at the muzzle or short distances... at longer distances a heavier bullet will usually lose less overall energy depending on the differences in ballistic coefficient. The coefficient of both bullets is actually somewhat similar.

So why does the .45 get so much support? Well the idea is that a bigger bullet will cause a larger hole which does have some merit. However, let's switch from standard full metal jacket ammo to the more relevant "defensive" ammo people rely on to save their lives. Bullet expansion here is the important factor along with penetration. Due to the slimmer design over the .45 the 9mm actually consistently expands more relative to its original diameter. Sorry I can't cite specific numbers at the moment but that has been the case. The size of the wound channels caused by defensive loads in different calibers are comparable due to this fact.

Ok, so again, what is the .45 ACP's advantage? At 124 grains and 1250 fps the 9mm has run out of room for more power. Sure there are heavier bullets (147 grain for example) but heavier bullets invariably travel slower without any significant gain in energy delivered. The .45 ACP however can utilize smaller, faster bullets easily. Many defensive loads will push a 185 grain bullet to up to 1150 fps. A little math tells us that it exceeds the 9mm NATO specs (same as US military specs) by some degree, although not greatly.

What is my choice? The 9mm. As pointed out, greater capacity, lighter weight, less recoil due to a smaller moving projectile. With a proper defensive load the bullet expansion is there. It also has greater commonality throughout. And when it comes to defensive ammo against most targets, the key phrase is "shot placement." General rule of thumb however, the larger the target the larger caliber bullet you should use. There are scenarios where lighter/faster is not superior to heavier/slower.

A side note. Most defensive ammo and certainly not plain old target ammo does not come close to the US Military specs for 9mm. They are loaded lighter so the perceived kick of a 9mm is significantly less than .45. However most .45 loads I've seen are pretty much on par with the M1911 ball ammo spec or greater.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Or you could use the 5.7mm that the FN Five-seveN pistol uses.

[MKSheppard]

Or you could use the 5.7mm that the FN Five-seveN pistol uses.

Which is also illegal in the US - have fun trying to even get the BRASS - FN
makes you have to ship them back the brass..

[Admiral Valdemar]

Or you could use the 5.7mm that the FN Five-seveN pistol uses.

Which is also illegal in the US - have fun trying to even get the BRASS - FN
makes you have to ship them back the brass..

Who said anything about the US?

[MKSheppard]

Who said anything about the US?

Yeah right, have fun getting your hands on the Five-Seven,
unless you are:

A) Military
B) Police
C) Own your own Fortune 500 corp

[Admiral Valdemar]

Who said anything about the US?

Yeah right, have fun getting your hands on the Five-Seven,
unless you are:

A) Military
B) Police
C) Own your own Fortune 500 corp

I was referring to military since this was a SOCOM grade spec-ops handgun and may seem even more widespread use due to high mag capacity and anti-kevlar and CRISAT ability.

I'd join the military just for one of these... and maybe a tank.

[Queeb Salaron]

Now, I'm not what you'd call a gun enthusiast, but I've hit the range once or twice with my uncles, who are card-carrying NRA-types. I try to spend as little time as possible with them, but when they invite me to the firing range, well... hell, who am I to say no?

I like the 9mm. It's sleek and professional-looking. Easier to control, too (or at least I think so). Quick action, nice feel, overall good gun.

But when you fire a .45 immediately after firing a 9mm, it's like you've switched from smoking Virginia Slims to unfiltered Luckys. This gun is just badass. I love it when a gun jumps in your hand, and when you can feel the recoil all the way back to your shoulderblade.

Man, what I wouldn't give to hit the range again... ::Dreams::

[nechronius]

if what you are after is a big kick to the body for every shot, go for a .44 magnum. That's the largest caliber handgun guaranteed to be allowed at every indoor range. And unlike more powerful rounds it's not going to start inflicting pain on you.

As for the 5.7x28 in the FN P90 and Five-Seven, the round is designed to defeat most body armor but is not a good round for putting someone down. Perhaps down the line they will develop better bullets. In reviews I've read about the 5-7 pistol one of the biggest criticisms about it was the long rough double action only trigger.

[nechronius]

I like the 9mm. It's sleek and professional-looking. Easier to control, too (or at least I think so). Quick action, nice feel, overall good gun.

Pray tell, which "9mm" do you speak of?

[Rubberanvil]

Or you could use the 5.7mm that the FN Five-seveN pistol uses.

Which is also illegal in the US - have fun trying to even get the BRASS - FN
makes you have to ship them back the brass..

Oddly enough .417 (??mm) Short/Fat Magnum ammo and rifles are legal in the USA.

[Rubberanvil]

Anybody who would want a M1911 varient but want to use a 9mm should look into 9mm conversion kits for M1911.

Glocksman, the ammo capability arguement is rather pointless given both the .45s and the 9mms are retricted to 10 round magazines due to the Large cap ban in the States.

[Beowulf]

Anybody who would want a M1911 varient but want to use a 9mm should look into 9mm conversion kits for M1911.

Glocksman, the ammo capability arguement is rather pointless given both the .45s and the 9mms are retricted to 10 round magazines due to the Large cap ban in the States.

A single stack mag for a .45 will hold about 7 or eight rounds, depending on the length of the grip. A 9mm is quite capable of holding all 10 rounds. So there is a slight difference in ammo capacity.

[Sir Sirius]

Glocksman, the ammo capability arguement is rather pointless given both the .45s and the 9mms are retricted to 10 round magazines due to the Large cap ban in the States.

Stupid U.S. gun legislation does not detract from the value of larger 9x19 clips, it only means that Americans can't benifit from them and since that is not a limitation caused by the ammunition it self it is beyond the scope of this thread.

Also IIRC that ban doesn't effect the military or the police. It also doesn't effect anyone outside the U.S., for example I have no problems in getting large clips.

[Rubberanvil]

A single stack mag for a .45 will hold about 7 or eight rounds, depending on the length of the grip.

More like 5 to 7 rounds in a for compact pistol, 7 to 12 for a standard sized pistol. And then there's the extended magazines. Also M1911s isn't the only .45 pistol made, which mean grip length isn't the same for each model.

Also IIRC that ban doesn't effect the military or the police. It also doesn't effect anyone outside the U.S.

The ban does inflict both groups simply by the virtue of high-caps magazine lines being discontinued, irrc. Magazine unlike guns do have a finite life-span due to wear and tear of use, hence the need to continuing(sp) replace them.

[Glocksman]

Glocksman, the ammo capability arguement is rather pointless given both the .45s and the 9mms are retricted to 10 round magazines due to the Large cap ban in the States.

Magazines manufactured before the ban are still legal and can still be sold.
I have 4 hicap mags for my Glock 19. The ban will hopefully not be renewed and will sunset next year (GWB's tepid support for it notwithstanding).

As the bumper sticker says: I'm pro-gun and I vote.

The ban does inflict both groups simply by the virtue of high-caps magazine lines being discontinued

Hicap mags are still being manufactured for police and military use. They just have to be marked as such and cannot be sold to civilians.


Springs in magazines do indeed wear out. In some mags, they are easily user replaceable. It is legal to install new springs in preban magazines.

Using Glock as an example, I could legally buy every part needed to repair a preban magazine directly from Glock except the follower (the postban follower is different from preban ones).

New springs, tubes, and floorplates are no problem. If the follower breaks, I'm screwed. But I've never seen a follower break, so I'm not too worried.

[MKSheppard]

A single stack mag for a .45 will hold about 7 or eight rounds, depending on the length of the grip. A 9mm is quite capable of holding all 10 rounds. So there is a slight difference in ammo capacity.

I think you're forgetting the Para-Ordnance work

[Admiral Valdemar]

The double stack USP 9mm can hold 15 rounds while the .45 carries 12.

[Sir Sirius]

Also IIRC that ban doesn't effect the military or the police. It also doesn't effect anyone outside the U.S.

The ban does inflict both groups simply by the virtue of high-caps magazine lines being discontinued, irrc. Magazine unlike guns do have a finite life-span due to wear and tear of use, hence the need to continuing(sp) replace them.

Bull, even U.S. based weapons manufacturers produce large capacity clips for export. For example S&W 99 pistols sold in Finland come with 13 round clips. Not to mention all the European weapon factories (Glock, SIG-Sauer, H&K Etc.) that make small clips only to cater to American customers limited by assinine U.S. gun legislation.

[Striderteen]

It depends on what your likely target is. For self-defense purposes, I usually carry my Kimber Pro CDP II -- it's a top-notch clone of the classic M1911 with a 3" match grade barrel and a ton of nice features you'd normally only find in a custom-modified gun. But if I was picking a gun to go into combat with and it for some strange reason had to be a pistol, Walther P99 all the way.

Short version: .45ACP has more hitting power, but poor penetration makes it a bad choice if you're likely to run into people with body armor; 9x19mm is a good all-around round.