A logo that dalton NEEDS to add to his memorial page....

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2002-09-15 10:09pm

I recently drove around the Pentagon this weekend, looked completely
renovated from the attack, that and the tan-painted AVENGER air defense
Humvees armed with Stingers at the ready around it......

Post by **weemadando** » 2002-09-15 10:29pm

Just one little nit-pick: What is a stinger going to do to a 747 thats boring in?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2002-09-15 10:35pm

weemadando wrote:Just one little nit-pick: What is a stinger going to do to a 747 thats boring in?

They really need to set up a permanent PATRIOT or HAWK battery
around the Pentagon.......

Post by **weemadando** » 2002-09-15 10:37pm

Or an MLRS with fragmentation warhead rockets set to detonate a certain altitude.

Post by **weemadando** » 2002-09-15 10:38pm

Oh, wait a minute. That sounds like a Manji-esque idea. ARGH!

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2002-09-15 10:38pm

Don't forget Manji's sixteen inchers.

RayCav of ASVS · Post by **RayCav of ASVS** » 2002-09-15 10:47pm

weemadando wrote:Oh, wait a minute. That sounds like a Manji-esque idea. ARGH!

MWHAHAHAHA!

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-09-15 10:54pm

Sixteen inch grenade launchers.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2002-09-15 10:56pm

Cyril wrote:Sixteen inch grenade launchers.

NINETEEN.....INCH.........GATLING.....GUN!

(Manji's gotta outdo the YAMATO by one measly inch, ya know)

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-09-15 11:04pm

I know what he posted. I'm suggesting my own Manji-esque weapon.

Post by **weemadando** » 2002-09-15 11:05pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Cyril wrote:Sixteen inch grenade launchers.
NINETEEN.....INCH.........GATLING.....GUN!

(Manji's gotta outdo the YAMATO by one measly inch, ya know)

Hey c'mon, it'll be fun...

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2002-09-15 11:13pm

I'm not even sure if PAC-2 would be able to stop an airline on a suicide run - its not that big of a SAM.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-09-15 11:33pm

XaLEv wrote:Don't forget Manji's sixteen inchers.

Actually, a 16-inch gun-firing canister would probably work, the problem is building a 16-inch canister round, and building a mounting, which could engage in time. There's also that whole problem with what happens when thousands of steel balls from the canister come back to earth 10 miles down range.

How about a giant weighted net launcher?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-09-15 11:36pm

MKSheppard wrote:
weemadando wrote:Just one little nit-pick: What is a stinger going to do to a 747 thats boring in?
They really need to set up a permanent PATRIOT or HAWK battery
around the Pentagon.......

They really need six or more firing units with a couple reload packs, one as point defence at the Pentagon also covering down town DC, and five or so around the citys edge to knock down know threats far out so they dont land in a dense urban area.

Firing at max range, and salving every missile, Avenger might bring down a 747 in time, especially if its already low and every engine is hit at once. But I would not count on it. HAWK or Patriot firing multiple missiles should work, but no single hit is going to work.

Forget those pansy little SAM's though, What we really need to knock down four engine jets is NIKE Hercules with its 1100-pound blast frag warhead. That will not only down any airline, it will also blast of the wings and reduce much of it to fragments, reducing the damage caused once it hits the ground, though a larger area would be effected.

NIKE Hercules while old and out of service is still in use by several nations, so getting it back into production would not be real hard. Plus the missiles and launchers are very cheep so the country can be wall papered with them, I'd suspect we'd use a new Radar, NIKE needed 9 IIRC radars to do what we can do with one today.

However, the chances of more air liners being hijacked are not that great, something like a small turboprop being bought or stolen is far more likely, and aginst such small planes Avenger will work.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-09-16 12:29am

Now for Skimmers, fuck economics air defense solution.

Clearly the United states needs 500 Mach-3 F-108 Rapier's flying standing patrols with AIR-2A Genie nuclear air to air rockets and AIM-155's. This is of course in addition to 800 F6D "The flying SAM site" Missileer's each modified to carry 8 AIM-155's in place of there original Eagles. They will be flying point defense for key targets.

Existing F-teen aircraft will be on 5 and 1-minute strip alert to support to standing patrols. 432 F-22's will also be deployed for defensive patrols and 5 minute alert.

Ground defenses shall be 5000 F-99 Bomarc's for long range engagements with tactical nuclear warheads, along with 2500 enhanced NIKE Hercules batteries backed by 2000 MEADS sites. All significant cities will also have NASAMS firing units for final point defense. Laser systems will be incorporated once ready. MALI will also replace Bomarc when ready.

The capital buildings dome will be replaced with something like the forward superstructure of a Burke, only with radars packing 10 times the power, and the ability to pump out enough power to kill birds at 300 miles, or down aircraft at 40 by melting the flight controls. It will also be able to destroy communications statalights

There will also be an "Outer air defense zone" which will employ B-70s loaded up with AIM-155's linked to a yet to be designed mach 2 AWACS aircraft to defend Freedom at ranges of up to 2000 miles, supported by a fleet of 777 and An-225 tanker aircraft.

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2002-09-16 12:32am

Weee! Attack ECM!

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-09-16 02:07am

XaLEv wrote:Weee! Attack ECM!

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2002-09-16 09:21am

Sea Skimmer wrote:
XaLEv wrote:Weee! Attack ECM!

The capital buildings dome will be replaced with something like the forward superstructure of a Burke, only with radars packing 10 times the power, and the ability to pump out enough power to kill birds at 300 miles, or down aircraft at 40 by melting the flight controls. It will also be able to destroy communications statalights

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-09-16 12:45pm

Ummmm ... all of that cool hardware will make it tough to attack the Pentagon by air, but if terrorists were really going to attack America full-bore, they would be going after much softer targets than the Pentagon. As a general rule, if you harden one target and the attacker is not compelled to attack that particular target for any reason, he will simply switch to another.

How many shopping malls, dance halls, night clubs, restaurants, movie theatres, and sports facilities are scattered across the United States, all of which would be perfect targets for a car-bomb?

You're still thinking of terrorism as if they're going to use the tactics of Cold War-era Russia. They won't. If they were coming after America anywhere near as hard as Bin Laden wants people to believe, you would have seen a LOT of casualties by now.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-09-16 12:49pm

Very

I'm going with a school as the next target, if its ordered on high it will be a middle or elementry school, if its the guy on the ground high school or Collage

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2002-09-16 01:31pm

Darth Wong wrote: You're still thinking of terrorism as if they're going to use the tactics of Cold War-era Russia. They won't. If they were coming after America anywhere near as hard as Bin Laden wants people to believe, you would have seen a LOT of casualties by now.

Then certain countries will cease to exist if OBL actually DOES this crap....

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-09-16 01:37pm

Darth Wong wrote:Ummmm ... all of that cool hardware will make it tough to attack the Pentagon by air, but if terrorists were really going to attack America full-bore, they would be going after much softer targets than the Pentagon. As a general rule, if you harden one target and the attacker is not compelled to attack that particular target for any reason, he will simply switch to another.

How many shopping malls, dance halls, night clubs, restaurants, movie theatres, and sports facilities are scattered across the United States, all of which would be perfect targets for a car-bomb?

You're still thinking of terrorism as if they're going to use the tactics of Cold War-era Russia. They won't. If they were coming after America anywhere near as hard as Bin Laden wants people to believe, you would have seen a LOT of casualties by now.

Once NORAD has more atomic firepower then three Ohio class SSBN's and the US Peacekeeper force combined, and more conventional power then the South Korean army, we can worry about such things. Bomarc will crush the puny truck bombs with its nuclear fire!

There is actually a good reasoning to beef up NORAD. Currently a huge fraction of the Russian deterrent is onboard bombers and their cruise missiles rather then ballistic weapons. The way the Russians have be refitting bombers it seems that wont be changing. Plus some of the new ABM sites are going to be fairly exposed.

Of course, I actually woundn't support funding for anything beyond pulling some I-HAWK batteries units out of storage. In reality, for the cost of a complete patriot battalion you could buy twenty-four F-15c's, or something like 40 F-16's. Either would be more effective for air defense then a battalions six firing units.

NORAD does need to keep more then its normal 14 fighters on alert 15 and they have been doing so, but the force can't support more then that because it's more then half ANG. Still solving that is really something that requires shifting around assets, and properly loading them, not buying new.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2002-09-16 01:42pm

Sea Skimmer wrote: Of course, I actually woundn't support funding for anything beyond pulling some I-HAWK batteries units out of storage. In reality, for the cost of a complete patriot battalion you could buy twenty-four F-15c's, or something like 40 F-16's. Either would be more effective for air defense then a battalions six firing units.

You forget that the Patriot/Hawk batteries can be on call 24/7 without having
to refuel....all you have to do is rotate the operators when they get tired....

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2002-09-16 01:44pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:Forget those pansy little SAM's though, What we really need to knock down four engine jets is NIKE Hercules with its 1100-pound blast frag warhead. That will not only down any airline, it will also blast of the wings and reduce much of it to fragments, reducing the damage caused once it hits the ground, though a larger area would be effected.

Bwahahah

NIKE Hercules while old and out of service is still in use by several nations, so getting it back into production would not be real hard.

NHK-2 hardly counts as Nike Hercules anymore! Plus, they have the minor problem of having the spent first-stage casing fall on some poor guy.

Plus the missiles and launchers are very cheep so the country can be wall papered with them, I'd suspect we'd use a new Radar, NIKE needed 9 IIRC radars to do what we can do with one today.

I dunno, I'd suspect that it'd be costly just to reopen the production lines, update its archaic systems and integrate it with modern C4ISR and sensors.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2002-09-16 01:48pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:Once NORAD has more atomic firepower then three Ohio class SSBN's and the US Peacekeeper force combined, and more conventional power then the South Korean army, we can worry about such things. Bomarc will crush the puny truck bombs with its nuclear fire!

Dammit, Sea Skimmer, now I have to go make another banner image with Bomarc on it.

There is actually a good reasoning to beef up NORAD. Currently a huge fraction of the Russian deterrent is onboard bombers and their cruise missiles rather then ballistic weapons. The way the Russians have be refitting bombers it seems that wont be changing.

That, and they're producing, what, six ICBMs a year to replace the old force now? They don't need them to hit China - the Backfire will do just fine.