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Ok, I thought of something, coming from the "modern USN vs WWII USN" thread.

What if a Nimitz class carrier somehow ended up back in time, en route to Pearl Harbor, on about December 6, 1941. This was actually a movie I saw once, so I'll put it to the same conditions it had there.

Basically, it is the carrier itself, and only the carrier. It has it's embarked airwing, but none of it's escorts (they didn't hit the portal)! I'll assume it would have a full wartime loadout of, say, 1996 (or whatever the last year was with the A-6s, since I do so ever love those things; logically, they'd have only the weapons available to them). Now, logically, you'd say they'd have only the weapons they had in 96. This is just as well, since I know that GPS guided weapons will be of no more use than overly expensive dumb bombs (no satillites).

So, what difference would it make in the war (assume the Admiral/Captain decides his duty is to the CinC, no matter who, or when, it may be).

I know, for one thing, the Pearl Harbor attack fleet is most certainly toast. But what about the rest of the war? And keep in mind, it's the 1940s, so once the fancy bombs and missles are gone, they're gone because they don't have the technology to replace them. Dumb bombs they can get, but none of the heavy stuff because it wasn't there (or maybe they just didn't make it since none of the plans could carry it). But stuff like AMRAAMS, Side Winders, Mavericks, HARMS, they aren't going to be replaced anytime soon. So the planes are gonna be going to dive bombing after awhile, and gun fights in the air.

Also, they'll have excellent intelligence, at least in the beginning. However, once the Nimitz starts rocking things, the Japanese would be probably changing their tactics. And, don't forget, the ship, and/or just parts of it's air wing, can go to Europe as well (imagine Prowlers in use against the radars of Germany!)

So, what're your thoughts? How much, if any, can the Nimitz alone shorten the war? Can they keep it afloat (assuming they don't go and hide it outright, and keep it in the fight; sure, they'll take safeguards, and put as much distance as they possibly can given aircraft range, but it'll still be out there fighting); especially considering the fact that the Japanese (or Germans, if you want it in the Atlantic) would no doubt put everything they have to kill it.

So, comments, please!

Well i think after kicking the ass of the Japanese fleet they`ll join the USN,give a few of the fighters or maybe the plans to make more,that will give America a 50 years advance over the rest of the world.

Montcalm wrote:Well i think after kicking the ass of the Japanese fleet they`ll join the USN,give a few of the fighters or maybe the plans to make more,that will give America a 50 years advance over the rest of the world.

Assuming they can reverse engineer it. That would take some time, to be sure, and remember, it's 1941 so the industry isn't as ramped up yet. So it's not that easy to procure replacement missles and such. Let alone if fighters get shot down (possible if they have to make dive bomb runs)

So I'm not the only one who thinks The Final Countdown's ending was a cheap cop-out, eh?

BEEN DONE

The Nimitz would destroy the Japanese fleet, and then the universe would implode from changeing the timeline.

MKSheppard wrote:BEEN DONE

http://webhome.idirect.com/~rlevy/images/countdown.jpg

RogueIce wrote:This was actually a movie I saw once, so I'll put it to the same conditions it had there.

Dalton wrote:

MKSheppard wrote:BEEN DONE

http://webhome.idirect.com/~rlevy/images/countdown.jpg

RogueIce wrote:This was actually a movie I saw once, so I'll put it to the same conditions it had there.

Thanks for the assist.

Not to mention, Shep, this time the Nimitz stays in 1941.

RedImperator wrote:So I'm not the only one who thinks The Final Countdown's ending was a cheap cop-out, eh?

Nope.

And it would be a kickass movie to see if the ship stays!

RedImperator wrote:So I'm not the only one who thinks The Final Countdown's ending was a cheap cop-out, eh?

They should have done two ending the one we saw where they come back,and another where they reach the Japanese attack in the first minutes of the raid,that would have been cool the PH force get shot before taking off and the cavalry from the future blows up all the japanese fighters.

MKSheppard wrote:BEEN DONE

When?
And what about the jets overflying the much slower prop planes?

The Pacific war would be essentially over in minutes, and everything that followed would be mopping up. If the Nimitz caught the Japanese carrier fleet, it would succeed in doing to the Japanese what they hoped to do to the Americans - annihilate their carrier fleet at the outset of the war. With the entire U.S. Pacific Fleet of 1941 wholly intact, plus the addition of this modern supercarrier, plus the new ships coming out of U.S. shipyards, and the Japanese carrier fleet resting on the bottom of the ocean, the Japanese will have no effective means of resisting the advance of the American juggernaut. It would still probably take a year or two to advance across the Pacific, secure the island air bases needed, and assault the mainland, but with the U.S. Navy in complete control of the Pacific, the Japanese are fucked.

This would probably prevent the deployment of the A-bomb, since U.S. forces should be able to advance across the Pacific and assault the Japanese home islands well before the Manhattan Project is completed.

This should also considerably shorten the war in Europe, since the Pacific campaign should now demand a far smaller chunk of the available U.S. resources. This means more troops, ships, and materiel available to assault Festung Europa. It might then have been possible to invade mainland Europe in '43.

It's possible, though, that the Nimitz itself and all it's planes would not see action for the rest of the war. Being so advanced, and irreplaceable in the 1940s, they might be considered far to valuable to hazard in combat. It's very likely that they would be kept Stateside and their systems analyzed extensively. This might result in jet fighters of say the P-80 or even F-86 level getting into production by early '43, and 1950s or '60s level radars entering service during the war. M-16-type assault rifles might get into production, increasing the firepower of infantry units. American military technology could definitely take a big leap forward.

Assuming that the Nimitz was loaded down for a wartime deployment.. the big problems are of course: fuel and ammunition.

Aviation fuel I don't think would be too hard to obtain or teach how to refine to a specified requirement for jets. Bullets I don't believe either would be too much of a problem either. However, trying to reconstruct the missiles and bombs might be a whole other thing. Reverse engineering decades of advancements on chips, transistors, not to mention even the polymers involved would probably take years unless the ship was carrying a University science department on board. Granted, the U.S. will advance incredibly in the years, but not to the point where it can resupply the Nimitz with the level of equipment it brought by the wars end.

No doubt the Nimitz air wing will knock out whatever Japanese fleet comes its way, and could lay down a can of whoop ass on whatever island it chooses and open the way for fighters and bombers of WWII era to level the place with relative ease. I would hesitate to redeploy the Nimitz to the European theater, too many subs in the seas.

Pu-239 wrote: When?

In the 80s.

And what about the jets overflying the much slower prop planes?

Overflying? Eh? The faster plane dominates the fight. Zeros would be slaughtered by an F-14. Every time. It can boom and zoom it all day.

Didn't we just have a thread on modern CVN's vs. the IJN at Midway of something? The while IJN ends up on the bottom when this is done. Eventually the carrier will run out of spare parts for its jets, but it could then be packed with about five hundred piston aircraft. Fabricating the needed parts for the carrier would be far easier then doing so for the aircraft though eventually the reactor could no longer be safely operated.

Making it Kitty Hawk class would be easier.

I know, how about we make it Coral Sea! Though she only had two Hornet and two A-6 squadrons. An early 90's Kitty Hawk would be good.

Regardless of which type of carrier we send if it's from the time frame of The Final Countdown she's likely to be packing a few nukes on board.

Even if the ship isn't I'm sure there's someone who would know enough of the basics about nuclear weapons and the Manhatten Project to help speed up the process of making an atomic bomb. They could also warn them about the hazards so we wouldn't have any of that stupid testing radiation nukes on our soldiers and stuff.

While we're talking about the Pacific war, here's a question: What if the American carriers WERE at Pearl Harbor? How much longer would the war drag on?

Darth Gojira wrote:While we're talking about the Pacific war, here's a question: What if the American carriers WERE at Pearl Harbor? How much longer would the war drag on?

Couple months, maybe. Japan did not have the troops or resources to capture more then it did historically and the US could still call on a number of fleet carriers to protect New Guinea and the South Pacific. Japan could have sunk the whole Pacific fleet and I mean every last ship without losses, and they would still be out gunned by 1943. Watchtower and the follow up campaign up the slot did destroy a lot of Japanese assets, but overall it was a sideshow that didn't have to happen, Rabaul in the end wasn't even worth capturing.

The USN would then sweep across the Pacific as it did historically, IJN carriers and air groups all go to the bottom, the IJN rebuilds, gets slaughtered somewhere in the Philippines sea and then its on to victory. Indeed US causalities might be lower in such a war if the slot fighting never happens. The Philippines might also be largely ignored with only a few islands seized also leading to lower losses. Bases will be ready in time for the B-29, the sub campaign will be just as devastating and the atomic bomb will be ready for action.

When you pit 3% of the world's industrial potential against 50% that wasn't even fully mobilized, it's very hard to create scenarios in which the 3% lasts any longer.

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Darth Gojira wrote:While we're talking about the Pacific war, here's a question: What if the American carriers WERE at Pearl Harbor? How much longer would the war drag on?

Couple months, maybe. Japan did not have the troops or resources to capture more then it did historically and the US could still call on a number of fleet carriers to protect New Guinea and the South Pacific. Japan could have sunk the whole Pacific fleet and I mean every last ship without losses, and they would still be out gunned by 1943. Watchtower and the follow up campaign up the slot did destroy a lot of Japanese assets, but overall it was a sideshow that didn't have to happen, Rabaul in the end wasn't even worth capturing.

The USN would then sweep across the Pacific as it did historically, IJN carriers and air groups all go to the bottom, the IJN rebuilds, gets slaughtered somewhere in the Philippines sea and then its on to victory. Indeed US causalities might be lower in such a war if the slot fighting never happens. The Philippines might also be largely ignored with only a few islands seized also leading to lower losses. Bases will be ready in time for the B-29, the sub campaign will be just as devastating and the atomic bomb will be ready for action.

When you pit 3% of the world's industrial potential against 50% that wasn't even fully mobilized, it's very hard to create scenarios in which the 3% lasts any longer.

How many carriers should've been at Pearl- according to the Japanese hopes?

How would the historical naval battles have played out if those carriers had gone to the bottom? Or, would they simply have been raised and repaired, like nearly all of the battleships were?

And of course, there's still the Air Force. Hiroshima and Nagasaki, anyone?

Vympel wrote:
How many carriers should've been at Pearl- according to the Japanese hopes?

Three, Enterprise, Lexington, and Saratoga.

How would the historical naval battles have played out if those carriers had gone to the bottom? Or, would they simply have been raised and repaired, like nearly all of the battleships were?

The sunken carriers would be raised and I'd expect one or even all could be repaired but I think it's unlikely they would be ready before 1943. They'd also be raised no matter what, Pearl Harbor isn’t that big and the fleet would want the space. That’s why the wrecked superstructure f Arizona was cut away, the navy originally intended to raise and scrap her, and that’s why the capsized Oklahoma was also raised over several years even though she was old and certainly not worth repairing.

The US could still field Yorktown, Hornet, Wasp, and Ranger might also be sent. I doubt we'd see the same battles. Carriers would still likely be sent to the Coral Sea, and depending on that actions results to Midway. But its possibul the IJN's main force might make it through Midway without being destroyed, however the invasion will almost certainly be turned back and the loss of aircraft and fuel expenditures will keep anything that’s left in port for months.

However the Eastern Solomon's and Santa Cruz would likely not happen, since Watchtower is unlikely and the USN wouldn't want to risk the two or three fleet carriers its going to have left. That means there will be a carrier battle in 1943.

Historically Japan has the bright move to send its newly trained carrier air groups down to Rabaul to kick some ass a few times, which they did. However after the last them, about twenty out of one hundred seventy five aircraft came back to the carriers busy doing nothing in Truk. They also stripped Tarawa and other islands in the area of their garrison air forces and sent those to go die around Rabaul as well.

That left them with nothing to send against the invasion of Tarawa except surface forces and subs. They sent subs, which got slaughtered, one escort carrier sank a half dozen, but the surface forces stayed back rather then get torn up by air attacks. Around the same time a two-carrier raid on Rabaul crippled or damaged seven heavy cruisers.

However with likely more carriers and intact air group they would sortie against the invasion force. But it has several Essex carriers for cover along with any survivors of the prewar carriers and the first Independence or two. It also has Hellcats, not to mention at least a half dozen modern battleships and countless cruisers and destroyers. The IJN force would be smashed and the USN would probably raid what's left Truk soon after. Then it’s a triumphant sweep across the Pacific.


The only thing I'd be worried about is Malta, Wasp wont be available to shuttle in swarms of Spitfires and the Island might fall. Though I think it's unlikely and by the time it did fall victory in North Africa would already be certain. Operation Torch could still go forward, Ranger wasn't all that important and some escort carriers could fill in for her.

RedImperator wrote:So I'm not the only one who thinks The Final Countdown's ending was a cheap cop-out, eh?

Actually, I thought it was the best call they could have made. If they had stopped the attack, the US would never have joined the war, because at that time the opinion of the majority of Americans was "It's their problem, let them deal with it." America didn't want a war, and only Pearl Harbour got us into it.

LadyTevar wrote:
Actually, I thought it was the best call they could have made. If they had stopped the attack, the US would never have joined the war, because at that time the opinion of the majority of Americans was "It's their problem, let them deal with it." America didn't want a war, and only Pearl Harbour got us into it.

No the US would have still gone to war when bombers hit Wake and Guam and the Philippines and Midway got shelled.

Sea Skimmer wrote:

LadyTevar wrote:
Actually, I thought it was the best call they could have made. If they had stopped the attack, the US would never have joined the war, because at that time the opinion of the majority of Americans was "It's their problem, let them deal with it." America didn't want a war, and only Pearl Harbour got us into it.

No the US would have still gone to war when bombers hit Wake and Guam and the Philippines and Midway got shelled.

Which may or may not have been in time to win in both Europe and the Pacific theatres