StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Let me begin with a few opening statements.

The US is a power hunger imperialistic state that will do anything to gain more power.
Bush is a bilthering idiot and cares only for oil, money and power.
In a few years globalization and free market industry will cause a greater divide between the elite and the rest of the world.
The problems of today will escalate, wars will start, people will die, poverty, disease, and hunger will run rampant, and every last freedom that was granted to us will be gone, so it had never existed.

There are two choices we can take:
1. We can continue to be ignorant and live a carefree egoist life, aloof to the problems of the world, until finaly the elite take aim at us.
or
2. We can stand up for the common good, denounce the power hungry, war mongering government, fight for equality and human rights, elect true trustworth officals and live in a true grassroots democracy that is controled by the people not, powerful corporations and rich indivduals.

for further insight go here: http://users.uniserve.com/~synergy/welcome.html

well ya, agree or disagree?

Disagree on every point.


But then again, you did say it was a rant.

Name me an other nation in history, that had so much relative miltary power, and did so little bad with it. Perfection is for Borg. See my post on communism.

Or so much good. We alone had the nuke for two whole years, and we were at our military height. What did we do? Nothing, which the exact opposit of what the Soviet Union would have done.

While we may not be perfect. Imperfection is not an excuse for abuse of power. Look at all the scandals in the White House. Cheney is under investigation for illegal business activity, Bush has known conections to many corporations under investigation, just look at enron. While Bush has pledge a crackdown of these activities he fails to accept that he too was part of such acts. Something that is more tragic with the case of the US and abuse is that they continue to run the School of the Americas. A full fledged terrorist school run right in the middle of Georgia. Please find some justification of that.

When you acutal look at things and figure them out for what the are but not what the apper

You relise nearly every goverment to Date has been run by blithing Morons
Lucky they have Advisrers who tell them what to say and Do(America is like this, The Soviet Union was like this, China is like this, 99.999% of the other Countries are like this)
Problems Arise when either you get a blithing Moron is as and Advisor and/or a True idiot in charge
Sure there are a few great Leaders(IE Not blithering Morons) The Washington was one, Lilcon another, there have been a few good US presidents, Lenin was a good Leader, Churchile was decent. Hilter however was a Blithing Moron, As was the Italian Dictator whos name I forget nor can I spell

Stasictly we are more likely to get better Leadership through Random Lottery of all people Ages 30 and up in America who resgistered to vote than we are The Currant System

As For Communism I never posted to that thread
But I will here
Communism at least with Humans is doomed to Failer, For as long as we do not have perfect for the people only for the people leaders you can not have functing Communisim. Look at China, A Corrput Racist Leadership that did not collapse Today due to the Capitlist infulances. Vision Marx might have been he was no strected of the imgagination an Econmist. Sure you have corrupt Business, Sure you have problems but thats in large part due to greedy men not the system itself. You simply can't under any system prevent somone who is hell bent on one goal in life if they are willing to give all for it. Enron and Worldcom. Know who lead these Companys? Thats right more Blithing Morons who also happend to have no Ethics whatsoever. Heck I've ment Fund Managers who would KILL themselves before they would let anything happen to thier investors, They could care less for any money they make doing it.
Why? Because they are good at thier job and see it in the right frame of refrance

And thus the problem. As long as we are lead by Blitering Morons... well you can guess the rest

Oh and I make no connection between Capitlaisim and Democracy. Capitlasim is after all a ecnomic system while Democracy is a politcal one

Just so happesn America is a true Capitlaist nation and it just so happens our goverment type is Democratic

I totaly agree with you Mr Bean. 99.999% of most countries are lead by blithering idiots but their policy is not.

An while our leaders are not smart in any way for some reason their admistration is. If you look at all the US's recent presidents they have been all relativly weak and uninfluential yet for some reason legislation continues to be passed which strengthens the status quo and provides power to thoese who really pull the strings behind our government.

The corporations. Actual examples of this are the numerous tax breaks and benifits that large corporations recievrecieve from there government buddies. Millions of $ on tax breaks, no reporting of illegal insider trading or tax evasion. How are all these things happening in a society and government which is supposed to uphold the law.
The answer to that is simple the US is not a democracy politically, its a imperalist/fudal government. Controled by the FEW, and influenced by the Wealthy. This is why IMOs and industralist always win against free medicare and enviornmentalists.
It is the system that is flawed, and if we continue to stand by and watch the blithering idots lead governments and corporations that weeken our freedom then I believe it is our duty to change or radically reform that system.

I have to take issue with Mr. Bean. (Love your avatar!) You simply can't have capitalism with a totalitarian government. The very definition of totalitarianism is the complete controle of all aspects of life by the government, which includes the ecomony. Only a representative democracy, pure democracy, republic, or MILDLY socialist democracy can have capitalism for it's economy. The more government interferes with the economy, the less captitalist it is. By the way, I don't believe anti trust is meddling with the economy, more like protecting the civil rights of the citizens from big corperations. Not poisoning my air, and not letting you lie about what is in your product is, (Thus protecting me from theft via fraud!) is not the same as telling me what to buy, sell, or how much thereof. Wasn't there a movie about some corperation or an other using strongarm tactics to increase their profits, involving some kind of battle or something.

"People are just not "good" enough for communism" see my post on communism. It would work great if only, well, we weren't human. If I had four wheels I'd be a bus.

Chrosta what about Dictatorship then? Milder Totaltarism, Rule by one Person

Or Noblity? Kingships and the like

And Empires Lead by Emperors

The number of people that coerce you to do things unwillingly doesn't change the fact that they are using force, or threat of force coersion. Be it commitee, mob rule, or solo dictator, it doesn't matter who steals your free will, it's still gone.

Resident Commie, you talk about abuse of power as if Chinese and Cuban human rights violations are totally irrelevant.

The only difference between a communist or socialist government and a mugger in Brooklyn is the mugger is honest about what he's doing.

Radical Feminist philosophy question: How many Hell's Angels can dance on the head of a pimp? Mr. Bean, Don't confuse my moniker with my ideas. I am Emperor Chrostas the Cruel, absolute master of all that lies between my ears. Everywhere else is outside of my kingdom. After all, you are much smarter than your avatar looks.

John,

First off, I never said that the vast human rights violations in cuba and china were irrelvent.

Then you speak of honesty, ehh.
Is not reporting and denying crimes honest. What I am saying is the US is equal in the crimes and is not doing nearly what it can do to stop violations all over the world. The also try to downplay their violations as if they didn't existed. This is especially easy when they effectivly independent of UNCHR decisions and elect for complete media blackouts of any newsworthy human rights violation committed in the US.

The US is even more exposed of its unwillingness to fess up to its crimes by placing the rediculious stipulations on the UN and ICC. By refusing to keep the peacekeepers unless they are exempt from the ICC as a whole.

What do they have to hide and who is truly dishonest.

My main issue with the USA is that ist is run and probably always will be run by stupid creationist sheep. In taxas it is illegal to hold puplic office if you are an athiest. With these people in power society can not progress, how can can we have equal rights for gays if we have a government that is brought up from birth to hate homosexuals? How can we cure genetic defects if it is illegal to do stem cell research? With these people in power we will never have a good democratic(mildly socialist repuplic) worldwide government, because they fear the second coming. Without a unified government we can not explore tha galaxyand contact extraterrestrial life.

Do you you know the difference between accidents, unforseen consequences, and deliberate policy? It is the policy of communism to repress it's citizens. The government of a democracy IS it's citizens. Policy follows the will of the people. When the people are to lazy, or stupid, or just plain wrong about the consequences, the government does wrong. The beauty of democracy is the marketplace of ideas., may the best idea win. Also, when not forbidden to complain, much less do something about it, unfair situations are much more likely to be fixed. Marxism is only take seriously now as a viable system by those in an ivery tower of academia. Safely insulated by tenure, with the authority to fail students that disagree with them, they are not used to being challenged. They use an awful lot of arguement from authority, and arguement from intimidation.I am a PhD, therefore I am right, I can fail you, so sit down and shut up. And since they are so smart, and no one dissagrees much with them , why, they must be right. The difference between a free state, and a totalitarian stae flows from the following two starting points: All things not forbidden, are permitted. All things not permitted are forbidden. The government derives it's power from consent of the governed. Freedom, minimaly limited by government, a necessary evil. The rights of the citizens are given by the government. You are defacto property of the state. Thus, you can be coersed, by force, for the good of the state. Where are the people in jail, (Or MENTAL HOSPITALS!) for no other reason than they said what they believed, and that didn't jive with the party line. I'll tell you where, in you communist states, that's where! Torture and fear or not how WE operate. When such things do happen, it rocks the system with the outpouring of anger, and the people who did it go to jail, or DIE. Torture is a capital crime where I live. Not an accepted tool of statecraft. have you ever been to any of these Utopias you long for? Do YOU, personaly know anyone who has ever lived in one of these hell holes? Ya fucking moron, emigrate to Cuba, (bring your sugar cane picking gloves. ) How about north Korea?(bring LOTS of food!) How about China? (leave ALL of your Christian things behind, and don't plan on starting a family) Have you ever been outside yoour own country? Is any of this getting through to you, or are you invincible 'cause you have the "Helm of Ignorance" to protect your head? Do you realy belive this crap, or are you pulling the fire alarm just to watch the comotion?

First of Chrosts,
This nation of the United States is NOT a democracy. You can believe all the propaganda and lies you want. But people, the citizens, and everyone not in the top 10% of the upper class in the United States has no power and no say whatsoever. If u would have done the least bit research of the situation you would have realised that this government is a FEUDAL one. Take some time and look at the link i posted at the beginning of the thread.
Also on the topic of censorship, do realise that just as the other dictatorships, the US has gone out of its way to silence, discredit, or even kill its own citizens who HAVE come too close to the TRUTH or those who HAVE exopsed the GOVERNMENTS Lies. That is true people have disapeared such as those who have learned the truth of JFKs assasssination and not to mention the 41 people who strangely DIED having incrimnating connections with former president Clinton. This is all TRUE. Our government is not as freedom loving and democratic as it seems. The Office of Homeland Security and the USA Patriot Act are all new forms of control that the government is enacting minute by minute. All these acts are unconsitutional and disregard our inherient CIVIL LIBERITIES. Did you know that the VERY ACT of saying something contary to the goverments policy can constitute domestic TERRORISM. Isn't there something called the 1st freken AMENDMENT that allows freedom of speech!!! These resent acts bring more attention to the countless freedom restrcting acts passed by presidents since hoover. Executive Orders as they are known, have the power to suspend the constitution and are ILLEGAL. Yet they continued to be enfored and upheld. How much more can the government curve or liberites before we take action to stop them. How MUCH LONGER can we IGNORE the FACTS the the government is GAINING from the so-called WAR on TERRORISM. And while curently the remaning so-called communist states are truly evil in some respects. These are communist dicatorships not communist democracies. That is NOT my hope for the FUTURE. A Grassroots Democracy with a Socialist Economy is what will best help the world. Not the curent state in which only the elite and wealthy are granted prosperty and humane life.

Mr Bean wrote:Look at China, A Corrput Racist Leadership that did not collapse Today due to the Capitlist infulances. Vision Marx might have been he was no strected of the imgagination an Econmist. Sure you have corrupt Business, Sure you have problems but thats in large part due to greedy men not the system itself.

LOL Sorry but here's a few of Marx's poor econmical predication's see what you think...

1.) In order to produce more Capital the Capitalist Classes will be forced to pursue a policy of promoting a greater belief in the Nation State... (Too some extent this was happening/had happened by the time of Marx it's part two that bears very close observation...) The Belief in a Nation and state and loyalty to it, was for a long time almost non-existent. Most people had a loyalty only too their local area, Town/Village/whatever. But to support the system of Capitalism, and to rationalise expansion a belif in the Nation State had to be generated.
2.) This is the truly important bit. Even after a belief in the Nation State has become accepted Capitalist's will eventually reach a new wall, the Nation State market will become dried up, and the Capitalist's will not be able to continue expansion in the single country. Eventually Capitalism will need to become Global, and companies will be based all over the world. Hmm Lets look at today!! Wow we are in the process of Globalisation, not bad for a poor econimist.

On another Note Marx was, and still is, considered one of the great econimists which he viewed himself as being first and foremost, and his works are still considered one of the greatest critiques of the Capitalist system, by econimist's on all sides of the debate.

Resident Commie wrote:A Grassroots Democracy with a Socialist Economy is what will best help the world. Not the curent state in which only the elite and wealthy are granted prosperty and humane life.

Well, unfortunately a true democracy on such a large scale is too inefficient to survive. It worked all right in Athens for a time, but even that relatively small development collapsed in favor of a succession of dictators, as soon as it became fairly large.

Which is why the US Government is under the de facto control of the special interest. It has to follow a Republican (the government style, not the party) format in order to maintain, ah, order. It follows that this centralization of power makes it easier for the wealthy and the large corporations to sieze control. It's too bad, but if you take a look at how well the US Government functions in its primary purpose (that is, to safeguard the freedom and safety of the people), it's one of the best systems in the world.

The only real competition it has in standard of Living and personal freedom is the Democratic Socialist nations like Sweden. Great place to live unless you're rich.



Also, for future reference: Paragraphs are your friend, and the BB format allows you to avoid ALLCAPS in favor of different styles, like bold, italics, and underlined. It's right up above the post window, the grey buttong.

Oh that reminds 3 I can understand but the other 38 where probalby just accidents

Well its like this, Ever Presidents gets three Secret Murders but you have to use them up by the End of the Term otherwise they are gone and they are none-refundable keep that in mind

And another the only Country I realy Trust to have its goverment working is Switizlerland, Neutral in everything and they have no standing army of any kind. However every single citizin is eligble for a call up if nessary and they are all trained with the guns they are given by the goverment


Fear the Swiss I can only say it like that. They are amoung the best trained in the world but don't do anything to show it. Keep in mind, Unlike France(A war? We surrender! ) or German(War Woohoo!) the last time the Swiss went to battle they kicked ass tooks names and nearly took over Europe
In fact one of the reaons they did not was because they where PAID not to. France and a few other Countrys paied the Swiss to go home AND paid them an anual tribute to prevent Swiss Mercarys from hiring themsleves out to anyone one elses wars

That tribute was paid I belive until 1852 though I'm not sure on the date because the source I read aurge about it.

In taxas it is illegal to hold puplic office if you are an athiest.

Please think before you post.

Well silly me, I must have been jerking off in that VOTING booth the last time, not realy voting. Just because the majority don't vote, doesn't meen they can't. What it shows, is how much people like it the way it is. That and animal behaviour. Nothing in the wild expends energy on anything without a payoff. Food or sex. You have a very weak grasp of real life, human and animal. The only place Marx hasn't been discredited is in the campus' poli sci department. In the real world people were voting with their feet, from the very onset. My late, GreatAunt Fey fled the revolution, with the other "White Russians" Why was there a berlin wall in the first place? To stop the humiliating vote with your feet process.The Solviet Union exploded into pieces when the iron hand of tyrrany lost it's grip. It would have failed sooner had not we proped up the rotting corpse with constant infusions of cash, food, and new technology. China is now morphing into a nationalist, not communist nation. How long until the revolution here? Don't hold your breath.
People are the same everywhere, rulers want to rule. How do they get to rule here? By giving the people what they want, or say they want. How do they get power there? By being ruthlessly loyal to others in power already, then plotting just where to put the knife in their boss. Fuck the will of the people, they don't count. Just as you say fuck the will of the people, world wide. The people have spoken, on a global scale. China would be a democracy today, if the will of the people counted there. Can you say Tienamin Square?
Do you "forget" such things, or are they not important in your world view? If you REALY are a Green, you should be hating the commies. They have the worst environmental records of any nations. Look at the toxic mess that East Europe bequeethed to the west when it collapsed. Forgotten that too? CHERNOBLE! You moron!
Commies can't do much of anything right for very long, because, there is no internal critisism. No complaint= no problem= no solution.
As stupid as you sound, you are doing good. If our ideology can't stand up to you and your ilk, we are truly worthless and week. Tell me that is what you wish, to purify our thoughts in the forge of controversy. If you wish to crash the system, you'll have to do better than this. You are actualy strengthening the very system you despise, (But couldn't live without) like weight training. Your resistance tires us, but make is stronger. Unfortunatly, like weight training, you are so boring, because you are so predictable.

Please think before you post.

Sorry, typo But at any rate last time I checked in the state of Texas a person cannot hold a puplic office unless they "acknowledge the existence of a supreme being" But you are right, that post was a bit of a rant. My point however is that society can not progress when government is controled conservatives and people who cannot see past religious indoctrination, to see what is truly best for society.

Wasn't talking about the typo

But at any rate last time I checked in the state of Texas a person cannot hold a puplic office unless they "acknowledge the existence of a supreme being"

I'd like to know where you are checking, because that's not true in any way.

Let me say here that 3 years of college has made me thoroughly sick of the endless blathering of Marx's apologists here in the 21st century. Nothing that has been said on this thread by the reds is anything I haven't heard or read before: corporations run everything, the United States is just as bad as China and Cuba, poverty is caused by callous exploitation by Western plutocrats, democracy is propaganda, blah blah blah, bullshit bullshit bullshit. I'm thoroughly sick of it and so I'm throwing down the gauntlets. Tell me HOW YOUR PHILOSOPHY GOING TO FIX THINGS. Communist debating tactics are exactly like creationist debating tactics: create a strawman version of capitalism, knock down the strawman, claim victory by default. I say, enough of that crap. Tell me how and why YOUR system is better than MY sistem (free-markets). Be sure to explain how you plan to get people to work productively with no prospect for rewards and a guarantee that no matter what, they'll get the same standard of living as everyone else. Reconcile what most westerners view as their basic right to dissent and criticize society with the concept of the communist society as the final synthesis, ergo perfect in every way and beyond reproch. Tell us how you plan to get everyone to relinquish their property without a bloodbath, or, if you so desire, explain why the bloodbath is a good thing. Solve Lenin's paradox: an oppressive and powerful totolitarian police state is needed so the state can wither away (that's right kids--you don't get to blow off Lenin, and by extention, you don't get to blow off Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol-Pot, etc., because everyone else followed his lead).

I don't think this should be so hard, being as Marx had this all figured out 160 years ago. And if somehow your precious theory fails in this laughably simple little challenge, may I suggest you NOT propose replacing the system which has made our society in the present age a near-utopia by the measure of history standards of the unaccountably vast majority of all the human beings who have ever lived with it.