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"The itching feeling that the US not just knew about the September 11 atacks but in fact, might of planned or supported them from the beginning."

Exactly what was Operation Northwoods you ask?
For that answer we have to go back to Spring 1962. Just before the events of the Cuban Missle Crisis.
The US was desperate to take Castro out of Cuba. After the disaster of the bay of pigs, the chiefs of staff and other leading power holders were looking for another way in to take Castro out. But how?
Well think of what causes the most powerful urge for retaliation... of course an attack.
Behind closed doors these men were ploting false attack on the US. An attack on a base or ship or city of the US. Caused by fellow Americans but made to look like Cubans. Could the same thing apply to 9/11.
Just as in the 9/11 attacks the US could have possible allowed or planed the attacks to make there lives eaiser. Before Castro now the Taliban. And while some may have no objections to this, what do you say to the families of the the thousands killed by such attacks.
While it may be unlikey that Operation Northwoods has a true connection to 9/11 it make you wonder what other things the government had in store for us if things didn't go exactly their way.

To far feched, you say, stupid commie you mutter. Well these are the facts and the speak for themselves.

Kinda sounds like what the Sith were doing in ATOC.

Thers a diffrence. Nation sponsered and approved Terroism is not Terriosim is an act of War

Terroirst attacks can not come from a Nation, rather only from a group of unaffilated people

State Sponsored Terrorism I believe is the word you are searching for.

This however is an entierly different issue, what I was refering to was the fact the the US had plans to stage framed terrorism in the us.

I say Nation because State Sponsered is Inccorect is the US a State? Its one of the things the Media screws up then everyone else uses not realy careing about the gramitical Significans of it


As for the stage Framed Terroism in the US, Thats not realy a big Deal

Know why?
Simple the CIA is paid to think of everything. Like the Secret Service they are paid to plan for anything. If you read what they came up with it shock the hell out of you but then agian
Its just a PLAN,
Did you know there was a plan to fake the assination of the Presidant to Give us a Right to go with to War with the Soviet Union
Notice we never used it. Because its just that a plan. So they had a plan big deal they have a plan for everything

Did you know the Secret Service has a plan incase the President is ever threated by a 55 Foot tall Giant Killer Rabit Robot?
Yes indeed its a matter of public record.

A plan means nothing at all besides giving you one more option.

I think there some confusions when i say State Sponsored Terrorism. And yes the US is a State, a Nation, a country, or whatever u want to call it. Bottom line is it's a soverign nation.
Here a definition:
State Sponsored Terrorism
The deliberate employment of violence or the threat of use of violence by sovereign states (or sub-national groups encouraged or assisted by sovereign states) to attain strategic and political objectives by acts in violation of law. These criminal acts are intended to create overwhelming fear in a target population larger than the civilian or military victims attached or threatened.
That is State Sponsored Terrorism and the US has done it.

Now to the second part of your argument.
First off it was not the CIA that planed the Terrorism but the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
Second yes, while it may have been a plan, arn't having plans for crimes just as bad as fufilling the crime. If just having a plan is ok, then why did kids who made plans to shoot up their schools but didn't still get arested and expelled.
Bottom line is that the plan is just as incriminating as the act.

Becides Operation Northwoods isn't the only piece of evidence linking US cooperation and willingness in the attacks. It's only seting a precedence that the upperlevels of the government. There are many more motives and pieces of evidence that prove and support the fact.

"A lie can be halfway around the world before the truth can get It's boots on." Mark Twain. If you truly belive in communism, then lying doesn't bother you a bit, because you lie to yourself everyday, so why would lying to US matter? If you don't believe in communisms, then you are lying now , and thus have zero credibility. I say again, emigrate to Paradise because communist states have such apeal to you. Maybe only in theory. Have you ever been to a theory? I have only been to real places.

Go back to your delusions. The US was no more "behind" 9/11 then they were 12/7/41. Course, you probly beleive that conspericy theory tooo... Why if you belive this crap, you must belive that NASA faked the landing on the moon as well.

This conspericy bs has gotten far to much... someone needs to clean out the gene pool....

Actualy it was the Mossad And they warned the jews, so they wouldn't go to work that day. There were no arabs on the planes, the videos of Usama claiming gleeful credit for his deed are fake. Someone should tell this astonishing truth to the employees of Kantor & Liebowits, a jewish investment firm. Who pretty much died to a man. Oh, that's right, they were in on it, and didn't REALY die, they went back to their Mossad jobs in Isreal. Do you realy believe this shit? Don't go anywhere near New York, and say such things. Keep your mouth closed in California, too. If you open it too wide you're going to trip over it and get hurt. Not by me, but I will point you out to some of my less tolerant friends, who lost loved ones. I guarentee you will be in a wheelchair the rest of your life, if you live through the next 10 minutes. I don't realy believe you are that dumb. Your lies will be confined to the internet, and others you know in advance agree with you. Taketh this not as a threat, for thou art entittled to thy wrongness. I have even served in the military, to protect your worthless, lying, cowardly right to be such an asshole. Don't walk in front of a speeding truck either, the results are likely to be about as fast, and sure. Question: Why are you so predisposed to believe such hateful things about the freest country in the world, yet overlook the blatant evil that is elsewhere? Got a problem with HONEST competition? Are you a loser, so the system must be at fault.(can't be your fault!) Or do you have a bad case of grandiousity? (You are not getting the riches, fame, women or whatnot that you so "rightly" deserve?) Or, most likely, you feel you don't deserve the lifestyle you have, and feel ultraleft guilt? Let me give you a capitalistic lesson in econonics. Producing wealth is NOT a zero sum game. Because you live well,(well enough to have a computer, and an internet connection) does not mean that someone else's life if more impoverished. It is not your fault there is suffering in the world, even if you feel none of it.

"The itching feeling that the US not just knew about the September 11 atacks but in fact, might of planned or supported them from the beginning."

Pathetic, what mental hospital did you crawl out of?

Let this be said right now.
It was never my intention to turn this into a flame war. I never insulted the deaths of those in New York and Washington in fact I mourned over them. They were murdered by heartless bastrards, but you have to realise who is the true enemy here.

Know your enemy better then you know yourself.

I am not a goodless bastard as you have lead to believe, im in fact a catholic and firmly believe in the teachings of Jesus.

Now to your baseless arguments. I understand this might be hard for you to acept, having firmly believed in our government for so long, but once you learn to open your eyes and see the whole story, you will see how much the media and government has lied and betrayed our trust.

I really don't want to go into a history lesson, but since the early 1900s, about 1914 to be exact. The Council of Foreign Relations http://www.cfr.org has had effective control of all US foreign policy, and in turn all media coverage of it. Controled by the elite the CFR, has abused power, caused unemployment, determined wages, caused the US to either or either not send troops into war.

Does it not upset you, that it is the leaders of businnes who decide when to go to war, and for what reasons, and not the people themselves as it was meant to be.

This is evident WW2 and the several cold war 'wars'. In WW2 we knew about the genocide in Germany in 1940 and the allies had broken Nazi code around the same time. Yet we did nothing to stop it. It was not until the Japanese push for more oil and the tragity of Pearl Harbor. To convince the US to enter the war.

Yet another irony of the war was that while the USSR was an ally at the time the other western allies did nothing to help them and in fact either delayed or denied the Soviets of deperately need weapons and supplies. As a result over 20 million Russian civilians died in the conflict, more than every other major war power combined.

Then in the Cold War, the struggle of two evils. One hidden and one obvious. The one being hidden the US, and the one obvious Stalin. Well I really don't wanna go into detail but with the needlees bloodshed of Vietnam, the incrimnating involvment with the contras, and the incident in Panama. There is plenty of guilt on the government.

While we may have passed the cold war those who threathen our freedom are still out there. Resently there was both the Gulf war and the Afgan war, are the biggest examples of economic greed and dissregard for human lives. In both conflicts what truly was at stake was oil not would be idealistic freedom, the gov. would like us to believe. Second hundred of civilians were killed not only my the enemy but by our forces as well. Documented reports of errant bombs hitting neighborhoods and schools are obvious.

So the questions poses itself why do it?
Why send troops into harms way, why run the risk of killing civilians?

The answer is greed and disregard for others, the thought by most of our leaders that everyone who is not american deserves less. For the several soliders killed in somolia to the several thousand civilians killed.

Whoo... well its about time to get of that soap box.

Bottom line.
American civilians are being misled.
Government is covering up dirty work.
Elite continue to profit.


Be informed, don't be a bigot.

this pic basicly sums every thing up

Conspiracy Theory this
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/doc1.pdf

if your to scared to click on the link,
it just proves your unwillingness to accept the truth.

Oh, and btw, actually read it, look at the apendix, and realise its a genuine Joint Chiefs of Staff document.[/url]

I really don't want to go into a history lesson, but since the early 1900s, about 1914 to be exact. The Council of Foreign Relations http://www.cfr.org has had effective control of all US foreign policy, and in turn all media coverage of it. Controled by the elite the CFR, has abused power, caused unemployment, determined wages, caused the US to either or either not send troops into war.

Absolute bullshit, your dreaming this up, and the reason you offer no proof for your baseless acusations is because there is none.

Yet another irony of the war was that while the USSR was an ally at the time the other western allies did nothing to help them and in fact either delayed or denied the Soviets of deperately need weapons and supplies. As a result over 20 million Russian civilians died in the conflict, more than every other major war power combined.

Despite the fact that the USSR was allied with the Axis until it had no choice, America immediately began suppling it with supplies. Far more, in fact, than the Russians needed. Much of the mechinized vechiles supplied later turned up in the Korean War. As far as the 20 million goes, it is tragic, but those deaths were caused by Stalin allying with Hitler, and then trusting him to keep his promise. The USSR killed more of its own people than the war ever did. The most destructive case being when the USSR intentionally starved Ukraine into what was mass genocide. And as many as the USSR killed, that is nothing compared to the 40 million plus the Chinese have killed.

You both got it all wrong. It's the Greys, and the Greens.

Resident Commie wrote:Conspiracy Theory this
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/doc1.pdf

if your to scared to click on the link,
it just proves your unwillingness to accept the truth.

Oh, and btw, actually read it, look at the apendix, and realise its a genuine Joint Chiefs of Staff document.[/url]

Um.... NEWS FLASH!

It's not 1962 anymore.

If you want to belive this conspericy crap, go right ahead. but be forwarned, attempting to delude others into beliving this lie will be met by those of us with a brain mocking you.

Things never change with the ignorant i guess.

Your witty and baseless attacks only humor me more.

Instead of debating the facts which i have presented. You go off spouting Ad Hominem attacks, Tautologies, red herrings, strawmen, and Leaps of logic that boggle the sensible mind.

Um.... NEWS FLASH!

It's not 1962 anymore.

Well, ya it's not 1962, but you know what. Does it really matter. The only reason I brought it up was to set precedence for what the government is doing today. It only proves the fact that the government was thinking about fake terrorism. As the saying goes history repeats itself. If you would like more relative information for your simple mind I suggest you read up on some little know truth that the government is trying ever so hard to hide.
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CRG204A.html

As for the ever bised David.
You too must have swollowed whole every piece of propaganda the government is trying to shove down your throat.
First off the CFR is not Bullshit, as you would like to believe

this is a link to all the proof you desperatly disire
http://truedemocracy.net/td3/shadow/s02.html

To sum the site up the CFR was created as a way to effectivly, control and influence, almost every aspect of politics and business. This is clearly outlined in its mission statement and observed actions by those active in the group.

To connect the dots in layman's terms, the CFR is an organiztion, the people in that organization are all connected with high positions in the government or high positions in business, therfore what happens in the CFR is often what is done.

http://www.cfr.org/Public/about/boards.html

This is all true.

Furthermore, the whole reason I went through the whole history lecture was to prove that the US knew what the hell they were doing, and is responsible for not hinding the truth about it. For those present minded the US knew and planed to get oil out of the wars in Iraq and Afganistan. And the point about the mass murders is a moot one, while i admit that atrocities were commited the US is not innocent in this case too. Think contras-niceraqua(sp).

Finally, I have never defended the regiems of Stalin or Marx, and you are correct in that they are evil. I am not saying that we should be a communist dicatorship, im saying that the people should have a true voice, wheater that be a deomcratic socialist party, a green party, or any other which promotes true equality. We should look at what is really happening in the world before coming to conclusions about who is telling the truth.

Seriously, what do you have aginst a better more acountable government. Is it the fact that CEOs won't be able to rob companies of their workers savings and money. Or the fact the government connect war industries won't be getting their multi-billion dollar contracts. Or is simply the fact that good'ol crafty and cuthroat capitalism will be a thing of the past.

Because if I look at what we have and what we could have I see a much better alternative. [/b]

Look, you are still doing nothing but spreading conspericy theorys, wich have ZERO hard evidence.

You 1962 memo lacks weight in the hear and now. Different era, different administration, different people. It shows that, at that time, at least 1 department outlined a way to use such a event. So fucking what? The Department of Defense has had plans for a war against the UK, constantly updated, since the 1800's. They are never going to be used, but they've existed, been updated continualy, and are just as official as your memo.

The sites you link to? Hardly credible evidence in and of themselves. Anyone can make any site they wish, saying whatever they wish. It's what the source of the information on the website is that matters. The ones you listed are mostly smoke and mirrors, nothing but conspirist theory enthusiest in the majority making much to do about next to nothing.

Let me put it in plain english, no beating around the bush.

The US government had no hand in the terrorist attacks on 9-11. They were not responsible for them dirrectly or indirrectly, covertely or otherwise. Certian foreign policies may have caused individuals to belive that their only/best option was a terrorist attack against the US, but such individuals/orginizations were NOT encouraged, dirrectly or otherwise, actively or otherwise, in any way, by the government of the United States.

If you belive otherwise, that's your right. And it's mine to consider your insistance of beliving in and spouting such rubish proof that you deserve "Gullible Sheeple" branded on your forhead (don't worry, I don't have a branding iron. But if you want to spout such illconceved rubish, I'm going to continue to refur to you as the blithering idiot.)

Since you insist, I'll go over every paragraph point by point. It all basically boils down to you making claims and not backing them up with proof. This web site you offered is nothing but the delusions of someone tring to put togather a conspiracy theory.

The worst part is that you then take his speculations and present then as fact, which it is not.
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Let this be said right now.
It was never my intention to turn this into a flame war.

You knew what this would cause as soon as you first posted it. You were seeking attention, and now that you have it, you can't handle it.

I never insulted the deaths of those in New York and Washington in fact I mourned over them. They were murdered by heartless bastrards, but you have to realise who is the true enemy here.

No, you have stated that the government is the enemy, now the burden of proof is on you. I don't think he government is the enemy and you have provided no evidence to the contrary.
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Know your enemy better then you know yourself.

What does that have to do with anything?

I am not a goodless bastard as you have lead to believe, im in fact a catholic and firmly believe in the teachings of Jesus.

I don't give a shit what religion you subscribe to, and niether does anyone else here.
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Now to your baseless arguments.

Looks whos talking now.

I understand this might be hard for you to acept, having firmly believed in our government for so long, but once you learn to open your eyes and see the whole story, you will see how much the media and government has lied and betrayed our trust.

Again, Prove it
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I really don't want to go into a history lesson, but since the early 1900s, about 1914 to be exact. The Council of Foreign Relations http://www.cfr.org has had effective control of all US foreign policy, and in turn all media coverage of it. Controled by the elite the CFR, has abused power, caused unemployment, determined wages, caused the US to either or either not send troops into war.

Please don't go into a history lesson, because I doubt your knowledge of history exceeds mine or anyone elses here.

And again, Prove it
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Does it not upset you, that it is the leaders of businnes who decide when to go to war, and for what reasons, and not the people themselves as it was meant to be.

An obvious lie.

Again, Prove it
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This is evident WW2 and the several cold war 'wars'. In WW2 we knew about the genocide in Germany in 1940 and the allies had broken Nazi code around the same time. Yet we did nothing to stop it. It was not until the Japanese push for more oil and the tragity of Pearl Harbor. To convince the US to enter the war.

You call suppling millions of tons of war equipment and food to Britian and the USSR nothing? It wasn't the politicians stopping America from entering into the war, it was the American public. We, the American people, thought that the whole affair was Europes business, and chose not to get involved. The politicians went with it because they wanted to get re-elected.
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Yet another irony of the war was that while the USSR was an ally at the time the other western allies did nothing to help them and in fact either delayed or denied the Soviets of deperately need weapons and supplies. As a result over 20 million Russian civilians died in the conflict, more than every other major war power combined.

(repost)Despite the fact that the USSR was allied with the Axis until it had no choice, America immediately began suppling it with supplies. Far more, in fact, than the Russians needed. Much of the mechinized vechiles supplied later turned up in the Korean War. As far as the 20 million goes, it is tragic, but those deaths were caused by Stalin allying with Hitler, and then trusting him to keep his promise. The USSR killed more of its own people than the war ever did. The most destructive case being when the USSR intentionally starved Ukraine into what was mass genocide. And as many as the USSR killed, that is nothing compared to the 40 million plus the Chinese have killed.
*********************************************************************************************
Then in the Cold War, the struggle of two evils. One hidden and one obvious. The one being hidden the US, and the one obvious Stalin. Well I really don't wanna go into detail but with the needlees bloodshed of Vietnam, the incrimnating involvment with the contras, and the incident in Panama. There is plenty of guilt on the government.

You obviously don't want to go into detail, because any scrutiny will destroy your arguement.
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While we may have passed the cold war those who threathen our freedom are still out there.

Don't presume to lecture me on such simple concepts.

Resently there was both the Gulf war and the Afgan war, are the biggest examples of economic greed and dissregard for human lives. In both conflicts what truly was at stake was oil not would be idealistic freedom, the gov. would like us to believe.

Again, Prove it

Second hundred of civilians were killed not only my the enemy but by our forces as well. Documented reports of errant bombs hitting neighborhoods and schools are obvious.

Accidents happen in war and people die. The key word is errent. Those bombs were not intentionally dropped on civilians.

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So the questions poses itself why do it?
Why send troops into harms way, why run the risk of killing civilians?
The answer is greed and disregard for others, the thought by most of our leaders that everyone who is not american deserves less.

Bullshit. Our government sends million of our tax dollars, collected for the purpose of benefitting Americans, to other nations to help them develop. We are currently spending 300 million dollars a year to help rebuild Afganistan. Even before the war they were the #1 recipients of American aid.

For the several soliders killed in somolia to the several thousand civilians killed.

Those soldiers were being assualted by those civilians. Do you suggest they allow themselves to be killed to even put the death toll?
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Whoo... well its about time to get of that soap box.

Bottom line.
American civilians are being misled.

Your dreaming that up, because you have offered no proof.

Government is covering up dirty work.

Pure speculation, again, you offer no proof.

Elite continue to profit.

They are elite because, in some way or another, they have made it possible for themselves to prosper. They are a self-selecting elite. They are not there through birth, but rather because they have worked hard to get to that position.

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Be informed, don't be a bigot.

I am informed, and I am not a bigot.

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Things never change with the ignorant i guess.

Obviously not, your still posting the same crap.
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Your witty and baseless attacks only humor me more.

Baseless? Your the one posting no hard facts, only theories.
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Instead of debating the facts which i have presented. You go off spouting Ad Hominem attacks, Tautologies, red herrings, strawmen, and Leaps of logic that boggle the sensible mind.

We are debating, you just aren't listening.

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Well, ya it's not 1962, but you know what. Does it really matter. The only reason I brought it up was to set precedence for what the government is doing today.

You offer no real proof that the government is doing anything of the sort.

It only proves the fact that the government was thinking about fake terrorism.

Again, no real proof.

As the saying goes history repeats itself.

You seem to be fond of saying that have no relavence to the situation.

If you would like more relative information for your simple mind I suggest you read up on some little know truth that the government is trying ever so hard to hide.
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CRG204A.html

What, you can't use this so called relative ( and I must assume you meant to say relavent, because relative is the wrong word) in your arguements? No, instead you make claims without backing, and when proof is demanded you refer use to a site that is nothing but conspiracy theories built themselves on conjecture.

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As for the ever bised David.

Why do you say that I am biased? Whenever I post my opinions they are backed up with fact.

You too must have swollowed whole every piece of propaganda the government is trying to shove down your throat.

And what propaganda are you refering to? Campaign speechs? Public announcemnets? Sorry, I don't listen to them, I base my opinions on fact, not the empty promises of politicians.


First off the CFR is not Bullshit, as you would like to believe this is a link to all the proof you desperatly disire
http://truedemocracy.net/td3/shadow/s02.html

This offered no proof, only the conspiracy theories of someone craiming to get his information from some unknown organization.

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To sum the site up the CFR was created as a way to effectivly, control and influence, almost every aspect of politics and business. This is clearly outlined in its mission statement and observed actions by those active in the group.

I don't care what that group has stated is its mission. Do they actually do all these things? No. The UN said fifty years ago that they would end war. Have they done it? No.

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To connect the dots in layman's terms, the CFR is an organiztion, the people in that organization are all connected with high positions in the government or high positions in business, therfore what happens in the CFR is often what is done.

http://www.cfr.org/Public/about/boards.html

That's obvious. If I control a water comopany and I'm also the county sheriff, and I decide to turn off everyones water, does that mean that the county government has decided to turn off the water? No. It means I, as an individual, have decided to turn off the water. No conspiracy or mistery there.

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This is all true.

Furthermore, the whole reason I went through the whole history lecture was to prove that the US knew what the hell they were doing, and is responsible for not hinding the truth about it.

Not hindering the truth about it? Again I must assume that this is a typo, since it would actually go against the arguements you have previously made. I'll assume you meant to say, " and is responsible for hiding the truth about it." Please correct me if I'm wrong in this.

Yes, the US ahs always known what it was doing, and no, the US government has never hid anything because it has nothing to hide.

For those present minded the US knew and planed to get oil out of the wars in Iraq and Afganistan.

One reason the US entered the war was precisely because the Iraqis were cutting off the oil. The US did not expect to get some new reasourse out of it, we expected that the rightful government of that region would resume it's oil production. As to Afganistan, that is pure conjecture on your part.

And the point about the mass murders is a moot one, while i admit that atrocities were commited the US is not innocent in this case too. Think contras-niceraqua(sp).

You brought it up when you implied that the USSR was some innocent victim of agression. The contra scandal was the work of a few mmbers of the military, and not supported by the government.

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Finally, I have never defended the regiems of Stalin or Marx, and you are correct in that they are evil. I am not saying that we should be a communist dicatorship, im saying that the people should have a true voice, wheater that be a deomcratic socialist party, a green party, or any other which promotes true equality.

Glad you agree with me.

We should look at what is really happening in the world before coming to conclusions about who is telling the truth.

You have obviously not looked at what is really going on. You have reached conclusions through conjecture and stated them as fact. Just because other people share your conspiracy delusion and can post it on the Internet does not make it fact.
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Seriously, what do you have aginst a better more acountable government.

Absolutely nothing.

Is it the fact that CEOs won't be able to rob companies of their workers savings and money.

They can't do that legally now, which is precisely which Enron's practice was called a scandal and why the government is conducting an investigation into the matter.

Or the fact the government connect war industries won't be getting their multi-billion dollar contracts.

Those war industries keep us from getting over-run by hostile forces. As to the billions of dollars we pay them, producing weapons and the R&D that goes into them is not cheap.

Or is simply the fact that good'ol crafty and cuthroat capitalism will be a thing of the past.

Capitalism and free enterprise will never be a thing of the past because it is in human nature to seek reward for our contributions. I f I put my time and labor into producing a product, I will always demand reward for that product. Whether that be monetary or just a warm-fuzzy feeling inside, I will still want reward. And since warm-fuzzy feeling won't feed, clothe, or shelter me, I choose monitary reward.
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Because if I look at what we have and what we could have I see a much better alternative.

I have taken a good look, and what you propose would bring down our current funtioning system and replace it with nothing at all. Your system is a fantasy, just like Marx's system. Your name is most fitting.
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I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but to claim that US intelligence was responsible at some stage for the 9/11 tragedy massively overestimates the abilities of US intelligence. Outside of Hollywood, they are nowhere near as effective and omniscient as people think. Just look at the ease with which Mr. bin Laden has evaded the dragnet.

I have so far seen no credible proof of this 'oil pipeline' that the invasion of Afghanistan was supposed to make possible.

Yes YES! when faced with the chioce between incompetance and conspirecy, chose the former. "I'm from the government, and I'm here to help." Run awaaaaaaaaay!

WOW! Imperial troopers sure rally and counter attack fast, don't they? And with that horrible truth weapon.

One Comment, I might buy Gulf War was for oil but Afiganastan?

Clue in buddy there are little to no oil resrvers in afiganastan. Its a Dirt poor overequiploted nation

Resident Commie wrote:Now to your baseless arguments. I understand this might be hard for you to acept, having firmly believed in our government for so long, but once you learn to open your eyes and see the whole story, you will see how much the media and government has lied and betrayed our trust.

Lets see your evidence.

I really don't want to go into a history lesson, but since the early 1900s, about 1914 to be exact. The Council of Foreign Relations http://www.cfr.org has had effective control of all US foreign policy, and in turn all media coverage of it. Controled by the elite the CFR, has abused power, caused unemployment, determined wages, caused the US to either or either not send troops into war.

Evidence?

[quote[Does it not upset you, that it is the leaders of businnes who decide when to go to war, and for what reasons, and not the people themselves as it was meant to be.[/quote]

When? WW1? WW2? Vietnam? Korea? 1812?

This is evident WW2 and the several cold war 'wars'. In WW2 we knew about the genocide in Germany in 1940 and the allies had broken Nazi code around the same time.

Many believed it was mere propaganda, similiar to that of World War 1. It, perhaps, sounded too incredible to be true. Secondly, there was no "Nazi code." There were Nazi codes, several of which were broken, but not all. Just because they broke the codes that signaled U-boats didn't mean they could break top-level codes referring to the Holocaust - if they used radio communications at all.

Yet we did nothing to stop it.

What could we have done to stop it? Invade Germany? When? How?

It was not until the Japanese push for more oil and the tragity of Pearl Harbor. To convince the US to enter the war.

A direct attack on American interests. The ETO until then (and even then by many) was seen as another "European War," much like WW1.

Yet another irony of the war was that while the USSR was an ally at the time the other western allies did nothing to help them and in fact either delayed or denied the Soviets of deperately need weapons and supplies.

You lie. The vast majority of the USSR's logitistical infrastructure that allowed them to advance to Berlin was made and supplied by the United States. Weapons had been sent in addition (they had large numbers of M4 tanks, for instance).

As a result over 20 million Russian civilians died in the conflict, more than every other major war power combined.

Don't try to blame the Allies on this, you'll only make yourself seem more foolish.

Well I really don't wanna go into detail but with the needlees bloodshed of Vietnam, the incrimnating involvment with the contras, and the incident in Panama. There is plenty of guilt on the government.

Care to elaborate on all three or simply make accusations?

While we may have passed the cold war those who threathen our freedom are still out there. Resently there was both the Gulf war and the Afgan war, are the biggest examples of economic greed and dissregard for human lives.

Gulf War was indeed economic, but not the Afghanistan campaign. Furthermore, the US forces in theatre attempted to minimize civilian casualties as much as possible.

In both conflicts what truly was at stake was oil not would be idealistic freedom, the gov. would like us to believe. Second hundred of civilians were killed not only my the enemy but by our forces as well. Documented reports of errant bombs hitting neighborhoods and schools are obvious.

You earlier wrote that we had a disregard for human life. Well, we at least attempted to minimize those casualties. Furthermore, give your evidence rather than just your assertions.

The answer is greed and disregard for others, the thought by most of our leaders that everyone who is not american deserves less. For the several soliders killed in somolia to the several thousand civilians killed.

Civilian combatants. And furthermore, even the largest estimate I've seen was approximately 1000, with most estimates in the hundreds. When a crowd of people start shooting at troops with others to act as human shields, they cease to enjoy their protection as civilian noncombatants.

Greed? Somalia had nothing of worth to the United States. We saw starving people, we wanted to help.

note* this post basicly applies to both threads I have started, since they are so closely intertwined I will post the same on both threads.

Ahh. as I can see, that even bright and early the minds are at work good for you

For any one who has been trying to sort out this endless babel of retoric and contradiction let me summerise my arguments. And i'll liet the opposition do the same for their's.

1. A Communist Dictatorship is evil as is any and should never be allowed to come to power again. (Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, ect.)
Therefore we need a true democracy, free from all the imperialist tendancies of capitalism. I.E. the Nike Empire, Microsoft Kingdom, and the Starbucks Dutchy. You look at reality for a change and SEE all which is not told. Globalization and Free Markets world wide. Are not supplying people with better life, they are in fact degrading life. These facts are clear to those who seek them.
Here is are links you should check out before you, blindly believe what a Money, driven, Extream Right-Wing, Majority government has to say.
http://www.publicintegrity.org/dtaweb/home.asp
http://www.fair.org
http://www.fair.org/media-woes/media-woes.html
BTW, these are all US institutions which, have a true sense for what it means to be Constitutionally Democratic.

2. The leadership and the government of the US is corrupt to the extream, hense the need for us to remember the roots of indepndence,
thanks to BenRG who first adressed it
the exact exerpt from the Declaration of Indpendence:
"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

3. Seeing what our forefathers envisioned of America, it is clearly eveident that the tyranny of the British Empire now rivals that of the tyranny of the United States.

a. This is clear in the book entitiled Feudalism... alias American Capitalism, which can be found here: http://users.uniserve.com/~synergy/welcome.html

b. Along with what is stated in the book here are the most pressing violations by the current government against the constitutional rights it pretends to up hold:

i. The powers of democratic checks and balances have been disregarded by the Executive Branch. This is evedient in the continued active nature of Executive Orders, which since 1933 under 1917 the War Powers Act allow the President to indefinatly suspend constitutional rights.
Here are examples of the most incrminating ones:
10995: Right to seize all communications media in the United States.
10997: Right to seize all electric power, fuels and minerals, both public and private.
10999: Right to seize all means of transportation, including personal vehicles of any kind and total
control of highways, seaports and waterways.
11000: Right to seize any and all American people and divide up families in order to create work
forces to be transferred to any place the gov. sees fit.
11001: Right to seize all health, education and welfare facilities, both public and private.
11002: Right to force registration of all men, women and children in the United States.
11003: Right to seize all air space, airports and aircraft.
11004: Right to seize all housing and finance authorities in order to establish "Relocation Designated
Areas" and to force abandonment of areas classified as "unsafe".
11005: Right to seize all railroads, inland waterways, and storage facilities, both public and private.
While this may seem ironicly like communism it isn't, because if you have discovered the government is wholly dominated by the elite.

ii. This is even more evident today, with the passing of the Patriot Act and others which, illegally restrict our constituational rights under the Bill of Rights. These actions include limitation of free speech, an end to search and seisure rights, and even thought of eliminating the 5th Amendment.

This Is An example of what legislation the governmment has been the last 70 or so years. Why should we the people allow the government to place restrictions on us that we fought to be free from. (See DoI quote)

We are not Equal in the eyes of our government, and they will do anything to hold and reinforce their power.

i deleated the responsces to the other thread, if u wish to view them go there.

responses to other posts

WoW i never imagined that this simple conclusion would cause so much dissagreement and denial.

I guess you really can't teach an old dog new tricks.
Oh well thats your loss.

If you want to buy into the propaganda and lies be my guest.

But before you go off on me for speaking the truth. Read something. Thats right read. The news is a good start, CNN, MSNBC, and ABC are all credible for the most part. What is better are alternative new sources. (they can be found here http://www.fair.org/resources.html) But please stay away, i repeat away from Fox News, anything so inacurate and biased should be banned. But thats just freedom of press so I can live with it.

Second see things for what they are. What you call speculation and conjecture is called investigation. When something is hidden, of course nothing is known, and all that is left is exactly that, speculation and conjecture.

Think of a trial, the prosecution takes what is then presumably specualtion, and gathers evidence and facts to prove the case. Now it is up to the jury to believe what they hear. You are the jury, and while I have brought up realitive and accurate evidence. You refuse to believe it, or even consider it. Why?

Is it the unwillingness to concider something that may hold a shread of truth. Don't be a naive as you make yourself to be. The most important facts which I have presented have been acurate. They were all done by former government execuatives, accomplished journalists, and respected PhDs(Noam Chomsky). Again I say Read before you Comment. What may look like conspiracy is actually the other side of the governments story, refer to the links in the previous post for more insight.

Second:

Yes, the US ahs always known what it was doing, and no, the US government has never hid anything because it has nothing to hide.

This notion is simply inconceivable. Yes the US Government has hiden things from us. That is as old as history. Again if you bother to look in to alternative news sources other then mainstream US media (http://www.fair.org), it is overwhelmingly clear what exactly the government is keeping secret. That is if you bother to look into the sources, exactly what i have been saying in the first place.

I guess you believe what you allow yourself to believe.

and BTW this was a typo

Finally, I have never defended the regiems of Stalin or Marx, and you are correct in that they are evil.

Marx should be Mao, whoops, it was late when i wrote that
and for anyother typos i apologize it was late [/i]