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I know that people who claim the same things about massages. It's unscientific. I like the way they make me feel, but I don't pretend that there's any scientific evidence that they improve health.


edit:
added here because I forgot to include this post in the split:

http://www.skepdic.com/massage.html

Here you go Warspite. This website has been endorsed many times over by people like Randi, Michael Sherman, and many other critical thinkers. Read the entire page. There's no evidence that it heals or improves blood flow.

BTW, I would love to see medical texts that confirm what you say.

Superman wrote:I know that people who claim the same things about massages. It's unscientific. I like the way they make me feel, but I don't pretend that there's any scientific evidence that they improve health.

Massaging increases subdermal blood flow, muscle activity and promotes the flow on the lymphatic system.
Do you think hands pressing on your skin for several minutes isn't going to have any effect?

Sauna has a similar effect, the greater exhudation (sp) will take out the "impurities" through the more open glands.

What better scientific evidence do you want than medical books that explain these phenomena?

Superman wrote:http://www.skepdic.com/massage.html

Here you go Warspite. This website has been endorsed many times over by people like Randi, Michael Sherman, and many other critical thinkers. Read the entire page. There's no evidence that it heals or improves blood flow.

I'm not talking about the use of metaphysics, stupid!
I'm talking about the mechanical response of the body to a reaction impinged on the muscles. In another words, rubbing and massaging stretches and compresses the muscles and blood vessels, stimulating subdermal blood and lymphatic flow, subsequentlly increasing methabolic transfers.
Do you think the body is going to stay the same, after you've been forcibly rubbed for several minutes? (No mastrubation jokes, please!)
The "feel good" is just a side effect, important none the less.

Metaphysics are always connected to this due to idiots, and those that like the Oriental/mistychal touch ( ). But, in between this shit there is a real effect in action.

BTW, I would love to see medical texts that confirm what you say.

The problem with that is the ones I've read are all in Portuguese...

You lose so you resort to the old ad hominems, eh? Nice.

Let's take a look further down the page since you obviously did not.

"The American Massage Therapy Association claims that

Research shows [massage] reduces the heart rate, lowers blood pressure, increases blood circulation and lymph flow, relaxes muscles, improves range of motion, and increases endorphins, the body's natural painkillers. Therapeutic massage enhances medical treatment and helps people feel less anxious and stressed, relaxed yet more alert.

They don't mention who did the research and where one might verify these claims. Nor do they mention that these effects are likely to be temporary or that similar results might be achieved by meditating, walking, exercising, having sex, or reading a good book, not necessarily in that order."

Uhh, gee, no mention of metaphysics here. As a matter of fact, it refers to EXACTLY what you were referring to (increasing blood circulation). Again, you have no evidence. This is alternative type of medicine nonsense. Concession accepted.

Superman wrote:You lose so you resort to the old ad hominems, eh? Nice.

Let's take a look further down the page since you obviously did not.

"The American Massage Therapy Association claims that

Research shows [massage] reduces the heart rate, lowers blood pressure, increases blood circulation and lymph flow, relaxes muscles, improves range of motion, and increases endorphins, the body's natural painkillers. Therapeutic massage enhances medical treatment and helps people feel less anxious and stressed, relaxed yet more alert.

They don't mention who did the research and where one might verify these claims. Nor do they mention that these effects are likely to be temporary or that similar results might be achieved by meditating, walking, exercising, having sex, or reading a good book, not necessarily in that order."

Uhh, gee, no mention of metaphysics here. As a matter of fact, it refers to EXACTLY what you were referring to (increasing blood circulation). Again, you have no evidence. This is alternative type of medicine nonsense. Concession accepted.

Listen, kid. Go read a definition of an ad hominem first, m'kay?

I did see that part. And as I was expecting, you took it up and used it as your only proof.

These researches are always problematic, since they aren't performed in controlled enviroments, and are very subjective. That is, they don't take into account a person's medical history, its current medication(s)/treatment(s), etc, etc. They only record a subjective experience (a person felt better afterwards) and the body's response to the massage.

Why do you think professsional athletes use massagists? Just so they feel good after having lost on today's important game, nevermind the fact they may have another game tomorrow?

AS to alternative medicine, there is alternative, and there IS alternative, is the Oriental medicine alternative? Yes, but the Chinese have been using it, and they have so far survived... A lot of it is just pure crap, but there may be something true about certain methods, not their explanations, but their effects.

You called me "stupid." That would be an ad hominem there, big guy.

Let me help you make your point.

You: Blah, blah, blah, I have no evidence, blah, blah, blah, I can only make excuses, blah blah, blah.

There. I think that clears it up.

Superman wrote:You called me "stupid." That would be an ad hominem there, big guy.

Let me help you make your point.

You: Blah, blah, blah, I have no evidence, blah, blah, blah, I can only make excuses, blah blah, blah.

There. I think that clears it up.

Fuck off. I called you stupid, and made my point. So? Can't take an insult?
Or, are you done with your arguments, and resort now to this childish behaviour?



Let's review, shall we?

Your comment about Edi's reply:

I know that people who claim the same things about massages. It's unscientific. I like the way they make me feel, but I don't pretend that there's any scientific evidence that they improve health.

From the start you dismiss the sauna/massage effects based on your own subjective feeling, and uninformed knowledge based on one site's comment.

My response to your comment:

Massaging increases subdermal blood flow, muscle activity and promotes the flow on the lymphatic system.
Do you think hands pressing on your skin for several minutes isn't going to have any effect?
Sauna has a similar effect, the greater exhudation (sp) will take out the "impurities" through the more open glands.
What better scientific evidence do you want than medical books that explain these phenomena?

I clearly stated from the begining the mechanical effects of massage. And my evidence isn't acessible due to language constraints, aside from the fact that I'm reasoning basing on common observed body responses.


Later, your turn:

http://www.skepdic.com/massage.html
Here you go Warspite. This website has been endorsed many times over by people like Randi, Michael Sherman, and many other critical thinkers. Read the entire page. There's no evidence that it heals or improves blood flow.
BTW, I would love to see medical texts that confirm what you say.

Your pulled only one site commenting on it, and claimed others that support it, hum, appeal to authority perhaps?
And if you can't do a proper search for medical documents relating massage effects on blood flow, I'm not the one to teach you how to type "Google" (oops).

My response (Oh, yes, here comes the insult, gasp!):

I'm not talking about the use of metaphysics, stupid!
I'm talking about the mechanical response of the body to a reaction impinged on the muscles. In another words, rubbing and massaging stretches and compresses the muscles and blood vessels, stimulating subdermal blood and lymphatic flow, subsequentlly increasing methabolic transfers.
Do you think the body is going to stay the same, after you've been forcibly rubbed for several minutes? (No mastrubation jokes, please!)
The "feel good" is just a side effect, important none the less.
Metaphysics are always connected to this due to idiots, and those that like the Oriental/mistychal touch. But, in between this shit there is a real effect in action.

Hum, it seems I responded to your post, the fact that you couldn't understand it that may be another problem.

I'm too tired for the rest, let me reiterate my point:

Massage/sauna, aside from a "feel good" effect, has the physiological effect of increasing blood and lymph flow (either locally or throughout the body), in turn increasing certain metabolic mechanisms, like sweat, and the usual "free radicals" stuff.
Once again, I'm talking about a logical mechanical effect, not some body-energy-flow alternative medicine stuff.

If you can't understand this, too bad.

Again, PUT UP OR SHUT UP. You say lots of things, but they add up to jack shit. Where is your evidence? Oh, right. You have none, imagine that...

Again, concession accepted.

By they way, you know full well that I'm not talking about this metaphysical bullshit. Quit trying to make this into a red herring. I posted the part of the page that discusses EXACTLY what you claimed (messages can help with blood flow). You just dismissed it saying that the studies are problematic, yet you cannot site any studies that say otherwise.

Superman wrote:Again, PUT UP OR SHUT UP. You say lots of things, but they add up to jack shit. Where is your evidence? Oh, right. You have none, imagine that...
Again, concession accepted.

Listen dipshit, you haven't made a single comment on my posts, except saying I made fallacies, making childish remarks, and claiming victory, based solely on one site.
And while I can't help you with your Google problems, I'm going to be nice and give you some reading:

A Sport's Medical Therapy site.
An interesting one check the questions made during the exam, where they explicitly ask the mechanical effects of a massage, and no metaphysical shit involved.
Gasp! A paper regarding effects of therapeutical massage on the autonomic nervous system. Did you know the nervous system can also be influenced by it?
An article from the Institute of Professional Practical Therapy, I guess they are fringe quacks, no?
A research institute dedicated to the touch (and consequently to the massage). Check their studies and papers, and call me in the morning.
The American Academy of Family Physicians also has several papers dedicated to the effects of massages.
Check the several references made to Ph.D.'s and research in this articicle.
Oh, look, another paper!
Oh, look, yet another paper.

Now, fuck off!

Jesus Christ this thread is stupid. Superman, did you start this just for an excuse to flame people?

Durandal wrote:Jesus Christ this thread is stupid. Superman, did you start this just for an excuse to flame people?

Nope, I split it from the sauna's thread. Superman started ranting about saunas and massages, leading to this.

Ahem.. once again I will give you all this link and tell you guys to do some REAL research..

http://www.pubmed.com

Colonel Olrik wrote:

Durandal wrote:Jesus Christ this thread is stupid. Superman, did you start this just for an excuse to flame people?

Nope, I split it from the sauna's thread. Superman started ranting about saunas and massages, leading to this.

Not to overburden you or anything, but shouldn't this be in HoS?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

fgalkin wrote: Not to overburden you or anything, but shouldn't this be in HoS?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Bah, it's not that bad, at least in my opinion. And it seems to be over. Superman must be busy reading all those sites.

Colonel Olrik wrote:

fgalkin wrote: Not to overburden you or anything, but shouldn't this be in HoS?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Bah, it's not that bad, at least in my opinion. And it seems to be over. Superman must be busy reading all those sites.

Only because the participants are offline. Once they'll come back, the show will go on.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin