On program engineering.

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Azeron
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On program engineering.

Post by Azeron »

To add depth to the shallow confusion on a favorite topic of alledgely computer-knowledgeable people, lets talk about XML, data transfers, exstensibility vs. practicality, and metadata in different forms.

To most people, XML is the ultimate technology, formless, yet useful in a endless configurable way. XML is like the sand at the beach, you can build it into anything you want, like a castle, a car, a home, or even a sand man with enough effort. Its just time consuming, and quite frankly inpractical as the project grows, both in size and scope.

Talk of SOAP/WSDL, XML based transmission protocols as the keys to interconnectibility between disperete systems is a bit hyperoble. Most meaningful transfers of data occur in XML data documents itself, the wrapper of communication is not really that important, as long as its aggreeded upon by everyone. So XML is just as usless as any other protocol i people don't aggree on the syntax of the language, and them hard code into the program.

There are those that argue, that it will lead to the truely extensible programming model, entire programs defined in an XML document using advanced self building routines based on something called "reflection".

Please excuse me for a moment while I laugh. Look I got a program that needs to clear, and I don't need to universally define a program in textual metadata, I need it in some real programing language doing what I want it do --- namely doing something. If I want cross platform capacity, I will do it perl or java. I think people are missing the point. what they really want to do is turn data files into programs, and they are probably forgeting that programs themselves are simply data files for the operating system, or the hardware itself. So we already have and use a broad range of extremely extensible metadata tools. what does taking it to nth degree of abstraction really bring us?

An object oriented programming proccess going crazy?

Programmers are idea people. They take an idea (concept) and as it becomes more abstract, they fall in love with it, because for some twisted reason as Abstraction appraoches infinity, programmer love grows, but at the same time the practical usefullness of such capacities grows smaller, becasue at one point or another, you have to hardcode what you want ito do, or how you want things to work into the program.

Missing the forest for the trees

The task you want the program to do is the forest, the trees are how you do it. Unfortuneately most programmers look at it the other way around. They want to figure out how they want to do something before figuring out what they want to do. THIS IS A HUGE MISTAKE!! Programmers are paid to create programs to do tasks, how you do it should be the most effecient utilization of resources at hand. Getting the most bang for the buck in other words. thats how they can afford to pay you, and turn a profit.

Object Oriented Programming is Independent of Whether its an Object Oriented Language

I can write a Object Oriented (OO) program in C, and write a structured program in C++. OO Design is a methodology in how you do things, not the tools on hand. OO languages just make it easier to code in a OO manner. However again, people mistake the forest for the trees. The view the tools the implement something equal to how it is actually implemented. As long as it is poorly coded, the program is not going to be very changeable, or modifiabe in any language. Good programing style and effiecent use of resources is key to whether a program is good or not. Remeber Cost per CPU cycle AND time to market (or internal use) is key to successful coding. The fewer Cycles that it takes to proccess data, the more data a program can handle.

Another Approach

Here is a typical definition file for WSDL in a simple transaction.
(I don't work with XML much anymore, so I might get some types wrong as to its compliance to defined data types, really just pseudo code)

Code: Select all

<? xml version='1.0' ?>
<sellOrder:customerTransaction xlns='http://www.myBiz.com/data.xsd'>
  <user:customerAuthentication name='string' password='string' />
  <usertransaction:transactionOrder>
     <userStock:objectStock stockID='int' />
     <userSalePrice:transactionPrice price='float' />
     <userQuantity:transactionQuantity quantity='int' />
     <userAccount:objectAccount number='string' />
  </user>
</sellOrder>
Why does it have to be more than this?

Code: Select all

//type tag | User Name | Password | Account # | Stock ID | Price | Quantity 
@152|<string>|<string>|<int>|<int>|<float>|<int>
To Hell With Engineering!!

Techonlogy changes all the time, unless you are in the need of a truely generically engineered application, just doing it the simplest way is the way to go. The only place that I always demand that be designed OO is the database. If it isn't designed OO or relationally, your data could get "stuck", and many times you can't really engineer your way out of that.

My point of view, for internal use, and taken with a grain of salt. My way is about cost effectivenes, not so much about making upgrades to the code base, except for additions. If you are designing something for mass consumption, and doesn't need to parse allot of data, XML may be the way to go.
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Post by Colonel Olrik »

Azeron, I'll take the opportunity to ask if you (or anybody here) know matlab well. I'd like to do a thing with guide and I've not found out how to do it yet. Essentially, I have a figure which is to big to fit a screen at 1024x768 and I'd like to include a scroll bar. That's the difficulty.
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Post by NecronLord »

:roll: I won't even bother,

Azeron, why dont wou go and bug http://www.w3.org/ They can actually do something about it.
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Post by Azeron »

they are part of the problem. they are overengineering the web. CORBA works just fine.
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Post by Azeron »

http://www.mathtools.net/C++/Mathematic ... index.html

I found some resources on it. Sorry not familiar with it. Mathmatical programming is not my thing.

I would like to help out, but I didn;t find a real good gui interface, or a some sort of recognizable interface.

To do something like that, you are best of using some resizing panes or a scroling pane.

You ever thought about using a different language, it might be easier.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Why does Azeron think clearly on the subject of computers and then become a drooling lunatic on the subject of nationalism?
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Post by Azeron »

Why does Azeron think clearly on the subject of computers and then become a drooling lunatic on the subject of nationalism?
I think they call people like me ecentric. really insightful and smart, but completely deranged in 1 or 2 ways.
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Post by phongn »

Azeron wrote:
Why does Azeron think clearly on the subject of computers and then become a drooling lunatic on the subject of nationalism?
I think they call people like me ecentric. really insightful and smart, but completely deranged in 1 or 2 ways.
Deranged is an understatement. You've somehow managed to unite the liberal, conservative, authoritarian and liberterian parts of the board against you.
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Post by phongn »

Colonel Olrik wrote:Azeron, I'll take the opportunity to ask if you (or anybody here) know matlab well. I'd like to do a thing with guide and I've not found out how to do it yet. Essentially, I have a figure which is to big to fit a screen at 1024x768 and I'd like to include a scroll bar. That's the difficulty.
Gimme a bit of time - it's been awhile since I've done MATLAB. I assume you're using 6.0?
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Post by Azeron »

No really just the communist/socialist/3rd wayist/progressive transnationalists.

Its easy sine I am a Jacksonian.
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

Azeron, you're a "Me-versus-Everyone-ite".
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Post by Azeron »

I could swear you try and start something with me in every thread. Are you that desperate to suck my cock?

Sorry but keep your dirty paws off my fine meat, thank you so very much.

Please people disagree with your facist opinion all the time, Such as "you deserve to be ticketed for $137 for drinking when you 20 years and 364 1/4 days old. The law makes right, isn't that what you beleive you donkey raping authoritarain socialist? Your not happy unless you are justifing the murder of some peaceful indigenous people, by an Arab dictator.
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

1. Stop putting words in my mouth.
a. I believe in obaying the law, no matter how unfair the lawbreaker may see it.
b. Exposure to my roommate last year has caused me to despise all drinking (but I don't le that influence anything)
c. The "let's destroy all Arab countries" shit was your position, fuck-tard.

2. I am not your gay stalker.

3. For you to be obsessing about #2, you must want your penis sucked on by some male.

4. Shut the fuck up, honey.
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Post by Azeron »

So when Mandella peacefully resisted aparthied, you would advocate sending him to jail? Boy you are one moral person. Sounds like facism to me.

Look if you don't want people to think you are stalking me, stop trying to aggressively flirt with me. It makes me feel uncomfortable, dirty from your unwanted sexual advances.
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

Azeron wrote:So when Mandella peacefully resisted aparthied, you would advocate sending him to jail? Boy you are one moral person. Sounds like facism to me.
False analogy. Underage drinking does not equal resisting a corrupt political system. There are such things as levels and circumstances.
Look if you don't want people to think you are stalking me, stop trying to aggressively flirt with me. It makes me feel uncomfortable, dirty from your unwanted sexual advances.
Then why don't I just cut off your dick and shove it up your ass. That'd make you shut the hell up about it. Others do not think I'm stalking you: just you. Now shut the fuck up, you worthless excuse for carbon coumpounds. Nobody here likes you, including me.
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Post by Azeron »

Ignoring a certain sexual harrasser,

I was thinking about cleaning out the ending, perhaps rewriting it a bit, and submitting for publication to some sort of software engineering site as a short opion piece. I am not the only person to feel this way in design, but I think it articulates people's growing disatisfaction with increasingly bastardized developement proccess.

What do you think out there....well those who are a bit familiar with development proccesses in general? (practical vs ideal)
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Post by Raxmei »

Whose bright idea was it to hijack this thread?
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Post by NecronLord »

You could of couse set up you own standard rival to W3C's XML creations, if you have the ability {no insult intended} If it were good enough, and open scource then people would probably take it up. You have to deal with issues such as security. Also it would take years to even alpha test. Let's hear your ideas?
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Post by Azeron »

developing an OO protocol is rather easy. Here is one I just thought up

A counter to the WSDL protocol definition file

Code: Select all

ver=1.0;

@sellOrder(<string>,<string>){
-price(<float>);
-stkNum(<int>);
-quantity(<int>);
-acctNum(<int>);
}

As you can see I based it on an abstracted OO programing language like C++ or java. I can easily add support for inheritence and many of the features only finded in a highly objected oriented progrmming language.

And I think its simplier and easier to understand to boot.

Actually my ideal way to implement distributed treansactions is just to send scripts from remote hosts, recieve and process them as they ijnstruct what do do with local objects. That way you are not stuck to a defined relationship as in an protocol based relationship, but extensible and to the point ever deriving it needs from the demnads of the task at hand.

Have any questions?
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Post by Azeron »

*bump*
I could use some feedback...so I hope that someone that understands, give an opinion.......
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Post by NecronLord »

Actually my ideal way to implement distributed treansactions is just to send scripts from remote hosts, recieve and process them as they ijnstruct what do do with local objects. That way you are not stuck to a defined relationship as in an protocol based relationship, but extensible and to the point ever deriving it needs from the demnads of the task at hand.
yeah, for business use you'd need a hell of a lot of encryption... though you do anyway...
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Post by Azeron »

well encryption is the simple part. Many ways to do it, but the concept is the coloest part.
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Post by SWPIGWANG »

head......hurt.........

when will have have 5th gen programming language?
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Post by Azeron »

welcome to the forums n00bie.

I am mostly here. If you advice on computer stuff, or history ask me or post in this forum. There are few decent historians here, and maybe 2 or 3 decent computer people (myself included)
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Post by phongn »

NecronLord wrote:
Actually my ideal way to implement distributed treansactions is just to send scripts from remote hosts, recieve and process them as they ijnstruct what do do with local objects. That way you are not stuck to a defined relationship as in an protocol based relationship, but extensible and to the point ever deriving it needs from the demnads of the task at hand.
yeah, for business use you'd need a hell of a lot of encryption... though you do anyway...
Shouldn't be hard, though. Use RC5 (ie SSL) to encrypt the connection, tunnel over SSH (using AES) or various other methods.
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