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If Isreal faced up against the mideast, against a 2+ combination of the following nations, who would win?

Nations:
Saudi Arabia
Syria
Iran
Egypt
Turkey (for the sake of Curiosity)

MAD
No one involied in that conflict would give up untill they where dead or there enemies where dead.

1 Nuke = Egypt is gone, 95% of population killed.

6 Nukes + 20 conventional strikes = KSA is gone, 95% of population killed or dies of thirst.

That's eighty-five million dead right there and the Israelis have probably lost a squadron of aircraft in exchange, tops.

That leaves 190-odd nukes for the other three countries, though I grant that most of Iran is out of range unless you one-way 'em.

Still, who are you putting odds on?

Israel always triumphs. Worst comes to worse, they test or use a nuclear weapon.


Course, in reality, Iran is far away with an occupied Iraq in-between it and the IDF; Turkey is basically an alley, Egypt has fairly good relations, Saudi has no shared boarder and Jordan would very likely fight any invasion. That leaves Syria, which could not hope to beat the IDF alone, it couldn't fight much more then a holding operation. In addition, in the current climate any major attack on Israel might well bring a full up military response from the United States. It might not mean war, but if 200,000 reservists are called into service and the US is loading mechanized units on the docks of Savannah no ones gonna be making a move.


All, well most of this is why Israel is looking into cutting back its heavy armored forces. They simply don't need all that combat power, at least not at the moment. Currently once mobilized Israel can field approximately a dozen divisions worth of troops, with nine of them armored. That is suffice to say a fuckload of heavy armor, heavy armored formations aren't cheep to keep around even if there only reserve unit.

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:If Isreal faced up against the mideast, against a 2+ combination of the following nations, who would win?

Nations:
Saudi Arabia

The Saudis have the best equipment of this rabble, but zero experience in a shooting war. If what some American officers has been saying is true, their army is thorougly inept and would get demolished by the Israelis. This is believable--the last thing the Saud family needs is a competent army that could overthrow them.

Syria

Flat out owned. Aging equipment, lousy training, pisspoor morale.

Iran

Won't even get into the fight. They have to cross Iraq to get to Israel, and that means going though 100,000 American soldiers.

Egypt

This time, the Soviets won't pull their nuts out of the fire.

Turkey (for the sake of Curiosity)

The only wild card. Definitely better than the Arabs, but they have logistical problems the Arabs don't and I don't think they're anywhere near up to the level of Western Europe.

Combinations are pointless. The Israelis could beat all of them put together. And if all else fails, Israel has hydrogen bombs.

RedImperator wrote:
This time, the Soviets won't pull their nuts out of the fire.

They haven't done much business with the Russians since 1973, they have a lot of Soviet stuff left but its pretty much all been upgraded domestically or with US assistance. When US military assistance and aid gets cut off, most of there military will become inoperable. There economy would also collapse.

The only wild card. Definitely better than the Arabs, but they have logistical problems the Arabs don't and I don't think they're anywhere near up to the level of Western Europe.

Not much of a wild card. The Turkish army mostly uses M48's and Leopold 1's along with other equipment of that vintage, 120mm sabot will go through such vehicles, out the back and easily defeat the armor of a second one behind it, probably a third.

I can think of better ways to commit suicide.

Let's spice things up here for fun.
Let's say the nations that would go up agest Isreral have one 20 MT nuke at hand where would they use it and how would they get it to there target?

LT.Hit-Man wrote:Let's spice things up here for fun.
Let's say the nations that would go up agest Isreral have one 20 MT nuke at hand where would they use it and how would they get it to there target?

You'd need either a heavy bomber to over fly the target, or an ICBM. Israel would easily knock down the former, but there ABM system is unlikely to be effective against a modern ICBM RV. There is only one target, airburst over Tel Aviv. Such a burst would devastate the city and country and lead to its collapse most likely. But not before Israel nukes returns fire with every nuke it has and lays waste to every threat.

Sea Skimmer wrote:

LT.Hit-Man wrote:Let's spice things up here for fun.
Let's say the nations that would go up agest Isreral have one 20 MT nuke at hand where would they use it and how would they get it to there target?

You'd need either a heavy bomber to over fly the target, or an ICBM. Israel would easily knock down the former, but there ABM system is unlikely to be effective against a modern ICBM RV. There is only one target, airburst over Tel Aviv. Such a burst would devastate the city and country and lead to its collapse most likely. But not before Israel nukes returns fire with every nuke it has and lays waste to every threat.

Unless the nuke was smuggled in and then set off

LT.Hit-Man wrote:
Unless the nuke was smuggled in and then set off

Which is impossible. A nuclear weapon would be far too easily detected, and no one would risk it, what happens when your huge nuke one timer is discovered and disarmed? You've lost a hugely valuable asset for no gain, and your going to suffer a political and economic hell storm at best.

Sea Skimmer wrote:

LT.Hit-Man wrote:
Unless the nuke was smuggled in and then set off

Which is impossible. A nuclear weapon would be far too easily detected, and no one would risk it, what happens when your huge nuke one timer is discovered and disarmed? You've lost a hugely valuable asset for no gain, and your going to suffer a political and economic hell storm at best.

Maybe so but there is always away around detection it's just a matter of find it.

Not if it was rigged up to a sucide bomber after it was smuggled in.

LT.Hit-Man wrote:
Maybe so but there is always away around detection it's just a matter of find it.

Yeah, the solution is about fifty tons of lead and concrete shielding, real easy to hid, though even then radiation would be detectable.

Not if it was rigged up to a sucide bomber after it was smuggled in.

That would require you to actually get into the country. That won't happen. Even the US boarder patrol has radiation detectors, think Israel boarder guards don't?

"It has been a glorious victory, out massively expensive twenty megaton nuclear bomb has killed a few thousand people and wiped out a balder checkpoint. We need not dwell on the fact that our cities lay in ruins and out army is being slaughtered as we speak."

RedImperator wrote:Combinations are pointless. The Israelis could beat all of them put together.

Are you aware how outnumbered the IDF would be?

Simon H.Johansen wrote:

RedImperator wrote:Combinations are pointless. The Israelis could beat all of them put together.

Are you aware how outnumbered the IDF would be?

irrelevant. Israel has vastly superior training and equipment. The only real threat would be from Egyptian armored divisions coming through the Sinai..... it would interesting to see how well M1-A1's (even in their export version) fared against Merkavas before the IDF lays the smackdown.

Col. Crackpot wrote:
irrelevant. Israel has vastly superior training and equipment. The only real threat would be from Egyptian armored divisions coming through the Sinai..... it would interesting to see how well M1-A1's (even in their export version) fared against Merkavas before the IDF lays the smackdown.

The fact that they must move there army across the canal, assemble it and then attack would ensure surprise is impossible, and thus victory.

As for how well the M1A1’s would go, there the equivalent of the basic M1A1, rather then the M1A1HA which is made up the vast majority of all US Army M1A1 models. The HA model is what added the heavy DU mesh which can repel most any sabot round outside of 500 meters. Without it the Egyptian M1’s would be easily destroyed at long range by Israeli tank fire. The units that oppose Egyptian forces rightly have the best equipment, almost exclusively Merk 3’s and in small numbers 4’s for tanks, both of which are armed with 120mm smoothbores.

The uberfied M60’s and earlier Merk’s models mostly go to the northern boarders, since even 105mm fire can destroy any tank in the Syrian army at reasonable ranges.

Simon H.Johansen wrote:
Are you aware how outnumbered the IDF would be?

Are you aware how spirted and high moraled every single IDF soldier would be? to be taken away from "garrison duty" in the West Bank, and up to fight against something?

Are you aware how spirted and high moraled every single IDF soldier would be? to be taken away from "garrison duty" in the West Bank, and up to fight against something?

Arabs are just as bit motivated and fanatical as the Israelis. Israel can never conquer the mid east even if they beat the vastly numericaly superior arab forces. Every Arab will rise up to fight the Israelis. Israel simply does not have enough soldiers to handle them.

Besides the whole point of this thread is pointless. Israel will not win because they are better soldiers but because America has armed them to the teeth with the best military hardware on the planet. Given the same level of technology the Arabs will truimph.

evilcat4000 wrote: Arabs are just as bit motivated and fanatical as the Israelis. Israel can never conquer the mid east even if they beat the vastly numericaly superior arab forces. Every Arab will rise up to fight the Israelis. Israel simply does not have enough soldiers to handle them.

Besides the whole point of this thread is pointless. Israel will not win because they are better soldiers but because America has armed them to the teeth with the best military hardware on the planet. Given the same level of technology the Arabs will truimph.

That's the singular largest piece of bullshit I've seen today. You're forgetting the hideous kill ratios in favor of the IDF and IAF in EVERY SINGLE WAR, as well as the mandatory conscription and the HUGE esprit de corps that exists in the Israeli army, a feeling not exactly fostered in the Arab world. Besides, Israel's not conquering. This is a plain old shooting war.

That's the singular largest piece of bullshit I've seen today. You're forgetting the hideous kill ratios in favor of the IDF and IAF in EVERY SINGLE WAR, as well as the mandatory conscription and the HUGE esprit de corps that exists in the Israeli army, a feeling not exactly fostered in the Arab world. Besides, Israel's not conquering. This is a plain old shooting war.

The Isreali superiority lies with their technology. Given the same weapon systems the Arabs would match the Israelis in every way.

IDF may be a highly motivated fighting force but the same goes for the Arabs. When convinced that they are fighting for a just cause Arabs are ready to sacrifice themselves for greater good, think of Palestinian suicide bombers for instance. This is what makes Arab militant groups so dangerous.

Yes the Arab militaries are very inefficient and mired in petty burocracy. But their soldiers are still ready to fight Isreal to the last, even though they know they will lose the battle.

evilcat4000 wrote:
Besides the whole point of this thread is pointless. Israel will not win because they are better soldiers but because America has armed them to the teeth with the best military hardware on the planet. Given the same level of technology the Arabs will truimph.

And so you show that you know nothing, Israel’s greatest victories where all pulled off with equal or quite often inferior technology.

evilcat4000 wrote:
Yes the Arab militaries are very inefficient and mired in petty burocracy. But their soldiers are still ready to fight Isreal to the last, even though they know they will lose the battle.

You hit the nail on the head about why the Arab militaries would lose to Israel. Keeping the equipment the same but giving the Arab militaries more competent leadership would give the Arab militaries a fighting chance. They might lose but they would really hurt the IDF on the battlefield.

The Isreali superiority lies with their technology. Given the same weapon systems the Arabs would match the Israelis in every way.

I doubt it. The Arab scheme of leadership is to lead from the top down. Normally not a bad concept, but in this case taken to the extreme.

Arab armies are comprised of leaders who know everything (or think they do) and enlisted who don't know anything (or if they do, are encouraged to shut the fuck up) and reley on the leadership for just about everything.

They have little if no NCO Corps. and like it that way. This is what will kill any Arab Army that goes up against the IDF.

Iran wins, because their navigational deflectors are immune to nuclear bombs.

evilcat4000 wrote:
Yes the Arab militaries are very inefficient and mired in petty burocracy. But their soldiers are still ready to fight Isreal to the last, even though they know they will lose the battle.

Which is all very well and good, but they will indeed lose that battle even with the best equipment in the whole world precisely because of that disorganized command structure, the top-down organization which prevents training of lower ranks in how to repair their equipment (and the failure to disseminate repair parts to lower echelons), and the total lack of any effective NCO corps among the Arab armies. Massive structural reform in the Arab armies would be required before they could utilize even the technology which would give them parity with Israel so that they could use it for victory.

Sea Skimmer wrote:

evilcat4000 wrote:
Besides the whole point of this thread is pointless. Israel will not win because they are better soldiers but because America has armed them to the teeth with the best military hardware on the planet. Given the same level of technology the Arabs will truimph.

And so you show that you know nothing, Israel’s greatest victories where all pulled off with equal or quite often inferior technology.

Indeed. There are stories of how Isreal rolled rock filled barrels around to convince their enemies that US tanks were backing them. And painting normal boats to make the egyptians think that they had a real warship. I don't know if they are true, or even if I'm telling them right, but if so, it's pretty funny.