Yup, Another WW2 What If :P

Icehawk · Post by **Icehawk** » 2003-11-04 02:42am

Yes I know, they are done to death, but I have one that I don't believe has been done before here and its one that I have never actually thought about or seen untill now.

The scenario is: Germany, in its swift conquest of France actually manages to seize and gain control over a vast majority of Frances naval forces and thus adds it to their own. What kind of power does this now give Germany and how much could it increase its chances of fighting a better or possibly winning war against the UK navy?

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-11-04 02:49am

The Germans learn how to surrender efficiently.

Icehawk · Post by **Icehawk** » 2003-11-04 02:59am

Gandalf wrote:The Germans learn how to surrender efficiently.

Im not sure whether to burst out laughing or to smack you sensless....

*does both*

But seriously now. From what I read recently France actually did have a pretty strong naval force.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-11-04 03:14am

Icehawk wrote:
Gandalf wrote:The Germans learn how to surrender efficiently.
Im not sure whether to burst out laughing or to smack you sensless....

*does both*

But seriously now. From what I read recently France actually did have a pretty strong naval force.

What can I say, I'm a sucker for punishment.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-11-04 03:19am

It would improve Germany's performance at sea, and cause massive, and damaging, problems for the Allied fleets, but it wouldn't win the war for them.
It could serve to extend the war in the Pacific, the U.S. would undoubtably have to increase their naval presence in European waters.

If France had a really sizeable submarine force and some worthwhile carriers, now you're talking.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-11-04 03:41am

Didnt England take preventive Measures just in cas rhti sdid happen? Thought they took out a bunch of French Battleships in port.

How many ships would this have added to the German navy?

Icehawk · Post by **Icehawk** » 2003-11-04 03:41am

It would improve Germany's performance at sea, and cause massive, and damaging, problems for the Allied fleets, but it wouldn't win the war for them.
It could serve to extend the war in the Pacific, the U.S. would undoubtably have to increase their naval presence in European waters.

Thats true, the lack of carriers is a large weakness, however even still with the added forces, could this not free up resources for Germany to now focus on things like developing amphibious assault craft and possibly lead to faster development of the Type XXI Uboats and other things?

Icehawk · Post by **Icehawk** » 2003-11-04 03:45am

Darth Fanboy wrote:Didnt England take preventive Measures just in cas rhti sdid happen? Thought they took out a bunch of French Battleships in port.

How many ships would this have added to the German navy?

They did in real history. However, in this scenario some people in the British high command had brain farts and neglected the importance of it allowing the Germans to take most of it before they could stop them.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-11-04 03:52am

hmmmm what if the Japanese had been alowed to run Dutch ,Belgian and All French posessions in the Pacific?? would they not have attacked Pearl Harbor?

Boba Fett · Post by **Boba Fett** » 2003-11-04 05:03am

Frank Hipper wrote:It would improve Germany's performance at sea, and cause massive, and damaging, problems for the Allied fleets, but it wouldn't win the war for them.
It could serve to extend the war in the Pacific, the U.S. would undoubtably have to increase their naval presence in European waters.

If France had a really sizeable submarine force and some worthwhile carriers, now you're talking.

Partly I agree with Hipper.

Though the German Kriegsmarine would gain a large boost in ships it would have a serious backdraw also.

You have to protect them!

That means much more fighters need to cover the area where they're operating...and say what you want, the Reich was always short on fighters compared to what they wanted to achieve.

Thunderfire · Post by **Thunderfire** » 2003-11-04 05:34am

Frank Hipper wrote:It would improve Germany's performance at sea, and cause massive, and damaging, problems for the Allied fleets, but it wouldn't win the war for them.
It could serve to extend the war in the Pacific, the U.S. would undoubtably have to increase their naval presence in European waters.

It would hamper their air and ground forces. Ships require fuel desperatly needed by land and air units. Germany needs a quick victory in the east if they want to have a chance to win WW2. The Barbarossa must be finished before Pearl happens.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-11-04 05:43pm

It wouldn't help Germany. Their forces would still be too weak for a decisive action against the Royal Navy, which means the RAF would have a few more battleships to hit in the fjords of Norway.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-11-04 05:49pm

Howedar wrote:It wouldn't help Germany. Their forces would still be too weak for a decisive action against the Royal Navy, which means the RAF would have a few more battleships to hit in the fjords of Norway.

They would still be too weak, but it might prompt Hitler to grow a pair when it came to naval operations. At the very least aggressive use of the fleet would tie up forces otherwise used in the Pacific and in general slow down the pace of the European theater.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-11-04 06:00pm

The British would go all out to destroy the MN as historical. Doing so with it stuck in ports in France would be more difficult, but the coastal guns and ships would lack crews and everything would be pretty badly sabotaged. In the end it wouldn't matter Fuel shortages would soon immobilize most of what survived British attacks and most French ships are valueless to the Germans, there too short range for raiding and very inferior to British vessels.

Icehawk wrote:
Thats true, the lack of carriers is a large weakness, however even still with the added forces, could this not free up resources for Germany to now focus on things like developing amphibious assault craft and possibly lead to faster development of the Type XXI Uboats and other things?

No, why exactly would you think having to find thousands of new crewmen and officers, something the KM was short of, would improve R&D? The French fleet also of course needs different ammunition and spare parts then German vessels so a large number of French factories will have to be kept building those, rather then converting to produce German equipment.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-11-04 06:03pm

Stormbringer wrote:
They would still be too weak, but it might prompt Hitler to grow a pair when it came to naval operations. At the very least aggressive use of the fleet would tie up forces otherwise used in the Pacific and in general slow down the pace of the European theater.

Not really, the Allies kept a rather overwhelming naval force in the Atlantic through 1944 and it could handle whatever is left of the French fleet on top of the KM. But by late 1941 what's left of the MM will be rather smaller then what was in the 1940 order of battle.

Shortie · Post by **Shortie** » 2003-11-04 06:50pm

Darth Fanboy wrote: How many ships would this have added to the German navy?

IIRC the MM had two nice modern battlecruisers (Dunkerque class), one nice modern battleship (Richelieu) and her unfinshed sister, and a bunch of old obselete BBs. Quite a few decent cruisers and destroyers as well, which the Kriegsmarine could really do with. I've no idea about subs, though I'd presume they'd have some. An old carrier converson and a new one being built too I think, but I know nothing about their naval aircraft.

Richelieu is nasty, but could be handled in the same way as Bismarck. The Dunkerques could be a real pain as commerce raiders, as could the lighter ships. Obviously any subs are a bad thing.

But it'll take a fair while to get new crews trained and worked up, and all the while the RAF and RN will be trying to make it a terminal experience for them. Getting from North Africa past Gibralter and the UK back to safety would not be easy. And that's ignoring the problem of logistical support for them all.

El Moose Monstero · Post by **El Moose Monstero** » 2003-11-04 08:34pm

Darth Fanboy wrote:Didnt England take preventive Measures just in cas rhti sdid happen? Thought they took out a bunch of French Battleships in port.

How many ships would this have added to the German navy?

What was that 'battle' called? It's been bugging me for ages...

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-11-04 09:12pm

The_Lumberjack wrote:
Darth Fanboy wrote:Didnt England take preventive Measures just in cas rhti sdid happen? Thought they took out a bunch of French Battleships in port.

How many ships would this have added to the German navy?
What was that 'battle' called? It's been bugging me for ages...

I dunno, 'Twas in an Algerian port IIRC.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-11-04 09:18pm

The_Lumberjack wrote:
Darth Fanboy wrote:Didnt England take preventive Measures just in cas rhti sdid happen? Thought they took out a bunch of French Battleships in port.

How many ships would this have added to the German navy?
What was that 'battle' called? It's been bugging me for ages...

Mers el Kabir.
Linky-poo

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-11-04 10:28pm

Shortie wrote: IIRC the MM had two nice modern battlecruisers (Dunkerque class)

Modern, but outmatched by everything in the Royal Navy one on one, they'd basically be twins to the twins. However they don't have nearly as good armor, though its not so horribly flawed, and there range and endurance is really too low for major commerce raiding.

one nice modern battleship (Richelieu) and her unfinshed sister

Neither was finished, though Richelieu was close, and neither would be for some time given the working conditions are near certainty of sabotage, if not by the French then by RN landing partiers which historically helped wreck a number of ships and installations during the Battle of France. That's ignoring any issues of any later RAF bombing or naval attacks.

But it'll take a fair while to get new crews trained and worked up, and all the while the RAF and RN will be trying to make it a terminal experience for them. Getting from North Africa past Gibralter and the UK back to safety would not be easy. And that's ignoring the problem of logistical support for them all.

If the ships are positioned as historical then the Germans wouldn't get them. So the main body of the French fleet ought to be assumed to be a Toulon.

Mers el Kabir.
Linky-poo

A battleship, cruiser and several other vessels also agreed to demobilize themselves in Alexandria, though the situation came close to resulting in a battle inside the harbor when word of Mers el Kabir arrived.

Now to cover everything else...

Another battleship and several other minor warships fled from Northern France to Southampton and also agreed to demobilization. The battleship, Lorraine, was later scuttled as a breakwater at Normandy. But her deck remained above water and she looked operational, so German bombers and midget subs frequently attacked and hit the hulk.

The French also had a cruiser and small task force in Indochina, which after fighting the Thai's ended up laid up for the duration of the war, though the USN sank the cruiser during an air raid in 1944. The incomplete battleships Richelieu and Jean Bart both had part of there armament and could move, they steamed from Brest to Dakar and Casablanca respectively. Richelieu was pretty much alone except for the some subs, while Jean Bart had a cruiser and destroyers with her. That force was largely destroyed and Jean Bart heavily damaged in action (if she'd had 6 inch ammo onboard the ship would have blown up) against US forces during the Torch Landings. She saw no more service of any form in the war.

Richelieu saw some action first in mid 1940 during Operation Menace. In this the British and newly formed Free French attempted to seize Dakar. They through the local French commander would welcome them, in fact Mers el Kabir ha left them extremely bitter and they fought. The British proved unable to even hit Richelieu, which was tired up to a pier, with bombs or shellfire, and the whole operation was called off after a French sub torpedoed one of the British battleships. Later though in 1942 when the French forces in North Africa joined the Allies she was refitted in the US and then operated in the Indian Ocean. While the IJN never came out to fight she did bombard oil refineries on Sumatra and escort British carriers on similar raids.

The last major French naval force was a Toulon, it had three battleships and battlecruisers by 1942, the battlecruisers having escaped Mers el Kabir without being destroyed. Along with them where 70 odd cruisers, destroyers and auxiliaries. In 1942 French forces in North Africa joined the allies after a brief but intense resistance, this triggered the German occupation of what remained of France. When German forces reached Toulon every ship was scuttled. German efforts to stop this led to one hilarious example in which a tank began firing at the battlecruiser Strasbourg, only to flee when the ship's main battery began turning to engage.