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Director Peter Weir of Master and Commander noted in an interview about the film that Americans and Europeans approach their heroes differently.

Americans want heroes that start out with flaws and overcome them by the end of the movie.

Europeans want heroes who start out great but their flaws eventually consume them.

Considering the usual dark and depressing bent of many European movies I've seen this seems to ring true to me. Also Americans LOVE stories about redemption, look at Vader in ROTJ. Anyone else have thoughts on this?

European or non-Americans especially I'd love to hear their views on this.

Master & Commander was meant to have us versus the US, but nooooo, they had to change it to the French whom we've already kicked their arse too much to mention.

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Master & Commander was meant to have us versus the US, but nooooo, they had to change it to the French whom we've already kicked their arse too much to mention.

because that is just what Americans want to see, the British beat the Americans.

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Master & Commander was meant to have us versus the US, but nooooo, they had to change it to the French whom we've already kicked their arse too much to mention.

personally i think it is much more powerful an England vs. France drama. because who seriously feared the American Navy in the early 1800's? Oh..the Brits did. nevermind.

Hey, don't be disrespecting the 19th century American navy. USS Constitution? Battle of Put-In Bay?

Basically true, though I'd say it's more like Europeans wan't heroes who have flaws, but are still continue to be heroes inspite of that... at least for a while. Where as Americans wan't heroes who have, in the end, little to no flaws. European heroes being consumed by their flaws and American heroes overcoming the flaws is sort of an continuation of those themes to the extreme.

Critics here commonly lambast American movies and TV-shows about the squeaky clean and corny heroes in them, along with complaining about a very black and white good/evil scheme. I quite often agree with them, it is easier to fall from the top af a tree in to a ditch then it is to climb back up again and there is a whole lot of grey area between good and evil.

I agree, although I think the Greek tragedies influenced a lot in shaping this characteristic of the European hero.

HemlockGrey wrote:Hey, don't be disrespecting the 19th century American navy. USS Constitution? Battle of Put-In Bay?

Old Ironsides went 33-0 in combat. She was never even boarded by hostile forces. There were at least 2 occasions when she engaged and defeated a numerically superior English enemy. She's a beautiful sight and anyone who passes through Boston should take the free tour.

I'd like to see a big movie get around the world that massively shows American fallibility, and maybe portrays the English as good guys. Just the shit the uber-patriots.

Col. Crackpot wrote: Old Ironsides went 33-0 in combat. She was never even boarded by hostile forces. There were at least 2 occasions when she engaged and defeated a numerically superior English enemy. She's a beautiful sight and anyone who passes through Boston should take the free tour.

I went there just a few weeks ago and she is a great ship, unfortunately since 9/11 they do not let you go below the gun deck.

This is simple: Americans are naive optimists, while Europeans are cynical pessimists. That is why American heroes look corny and childish to Europeans, while European movies seem depressing and miserable to Americans.

Even self-professed "cynical realists" in America have a habit of absolutely drowning themselves in optimism when the mood strikes: look at the way people were happily projecting a bed of roses in Iraq at the beginning of this year (those of you who are about to rise up and refute what I just said, keep in mind that your own posts from that period of time are still archived on the board, and can be quoted if necessary).

And Australians are just Cynical Bastards.

weemadando wrote:And Australians are just Cynical Bastards.

Well, you guys were former prisoners sent to rot on a God forsaken penal colony in the ass end of the world...

Gandalf wrote:I'd like to see a big movie get around the world that massively shows American fallibility, and maybe portrays the English as good guys. Just the shit the uber-patriots.

All your media are belong to us. In the next WW2 movie we make, we're thinking of writing all of you out entirely. It'll just be the heroic Americans vs the Germans and Japanese. Well, we might write Britain in as part of France, so we can save their asses.

GrandAdmiralPrawn wrote:

Gandalf wrote:I'd like to see a big movie get around the world that massively shows American fallibility, and maybe portrays the English as good guys. Just the shit the uber-patriots.

All your media are belong to us. In the next WW2 movie we make, we're thinking of writing all of you out entirely. It'll just be the heroic Americans vs the Germans and Japanese. Well, we might write Britain in as part of France, so we can save their asses.

I'm waiting till they go too far and write themselves out somehow.

GrandAdmiralPrawn wrote:

Gandalf wrote:I'd like to see a big movie get around the world that massively shows American fallibility, and maybe portrays the English as good guys. Just the shit the uber-patriots.

All your media are belong to us. In the next WW2 movie we make, we're thinking of writing all of you out entirely. It'll just be the heroic Americans vs the Germans and Japanese. Well, we might write Britain in as part of France, so we can save their asses.

Michael Bay? Is that you?

Hey!

Dartanyon was COOL, until he literally lost his head to dutch cannon fire in Man in the Iron Mask

GrandAdmiralPrawn wrote:

Gandalf wrote:I'd like to see a big movie get around the world that massively shows American fallibility, and maybe portrays the English as good guys. Just the shit the uber-patriots.

All your media are belong to us. In the next WW2 movie we make, we're thinking of writing all of you out entirely. It'll just be the heroic Americans vs the Germans and Japanese. Well, we might write Britain in as part of France, so we can save their asses.

Too late.. ever see the movie Patton =)

Trytostaydead wrote:

GrandAdmiralPrawn wrote:

Gandalf wrote:I'd like to see a big movie get around the world that massively shows American fallibility, and maybe portrays the English as good guys. Just the shit the uber-patriots.

All your media are belong to us. In the next WW2 movie we make, we're thinking of writing all of you out entirely. It'll just be the heroic Americans vs the Germans and Japanese. Well, we might write Britain in as part of France, so we can save their asses.

Too late.. ever see the movie Patton =)

Or Saving Private Ryan?

Gandalf wrote:
Or Saving Private Ryan?

Well, that movie was about Omaha and about an american mission. Why would the brits be involved?

But Patton.. hahaha, they just ragged on the poor Brits every chance they got. LOL.

Yeah, but didn't Patton rag on Montgomery every chance he got?

Uraniun235 wrote:Yeah, but didn't Patton rag on Montgomery every chance he got?

Yeah, but Patton was a fucking psycho and Monty didn't too like him either. I'd like to have seen them both just face-off mano-a-mano and erase themselves. Preferably with the ST: TOS battle theme in the background.

Trytostaydead wrote:

Gandalf wrote:Or Saving Private Ryan?

Well, that movie was about Omaha and about an american mission. Why would the brits be involved?

But Patton.. hahaha, they just ragged on the poor Brits every chance they got. LOL.

I would have thought they would run into non-Americans somewhere.

Gandalf wrote:

Trytostaydead wrote:

Gandalf wrote:Or Saving Private Ryan?

Well, that movie was about Omaha and about an american mission. Why would the brits be involved?

But Patton.. hahaha, they just ragged on the poor Brits every chance they got. LOL.

I would have thought they would run into non-Americans somewhere.

I'm trying to remember where I heard the quote: Inside everyone is an American trying to get out.

Either Americanism is a psychological disease that has successfully infected us all... or I accidentally ate a guy and didn't notice. Maybe that explains McDonald's beef patties...

Stravo wrote:Director Peter Weir of Master and Commander noted in an interview about the film that Americans and Europeans approach their heroes differently.

Americans want heroes that start out with flaws and overcome them by the end of the movie.

Europeans want heroes who start out great but their flaws eventually consume them.

Considering the usual dark and depressing bent of many European movies I've seen this seems to ring true to me. Also Americans LOVE stories about redemption, look at Vader in ROTJ. Anyone else have thoughts on this?

European or non-Americans especially I'd love to hear their views on this.

In Australia we have what is known as the Tall-Poppy Syndrome, which basically ensures we have no heroes (because we cut them down, see, like poppies. Or something).

Most of our literature doesn't focus on heroes so much as people that have a job to do and do it well. Or people who are forced to perform better because of circumstance. We don't even call our soldiers heroes, we say they're 'ordinary people doing extraordinary things.' Instead of calling people heroes we call them 'Aussie Battlers' - the implication here is that these people didn't set off to do something incredible but HAD to in order to survive.

As for Europe, I think that going through the hell that was WW1 and 2 would probably prevent them from believing in heroes. The opposite is true of America, being the 'winners' of those conflicts and soaring high on the victory, naturally thanks to your nation's heroes. I can't think of that many British war-heroes but I can name many Americans who were given heroic status (mainly the ones who had films made and named after them).

Europe has a much longer history as well, and someone had already mentioned the Greek tragedies. As you yourself pointed out Europe presents heroes that start off great but end up flawed (and I guess it goes without saying but Shakespeare does the same to his characters). This is probably because European history is bloody and violent, and more often than not caused by the heroes. If you read some of the actions the ancient Greek heroes often got up to, such as Achilles killing Hector and then dragging his body around Troy 3 times, you'd be left with the impression that heroes weren't 'good' but 'excessive.'

Something which an English couple found odd when I told them, but Hungarians are actually proud that Attila the Hun had a hand in the birth of their nation - or how they like to claim (my ancestry is Hungarian but I am comfortably Australian). He was a barbarian, who's armies raided all over Europe. And he's a national 'hero.' Attila is a popular name in Hungary.

It is certainly strange, but when you consider modern Europe has an intense distrust for 'heroes' due to the destruction they cause, it is not surprising.

I should also point out that this value does crop up in ROTJ. Watching the end duel we expect Luke to somehow defeat the Emperor and reconcile with Vader by being a hero. Instead, he is left powerless against the Emperor and it is only Vader, who for the entire 3 films has been painted as a villian to suddenly rebel and kill Palpatine.

If you take the SW saga as Anakin's story then he is very much the European hero - he starts off great and then falls, and then redeems himself before he dies. Luke on the other hand is more of an American hero, in that he starts off flawed but through trial and error comes out on top - the Luke at the end of ROTJ is certainly stronger and wiser than the Luke at the beginning of ANH. However, he isn't a stereotype as I seem to imply - Luke loses things in exchange for his strength, or his growth.

I better shut up before this turns into an essay.